Rejection of Mary as your mediator

[namericanboy]

For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.[/b]


Couple comment here..I sorta find it ironic how we use Revelation about the prophetic and Cath's says it's highly symbolic..They they use prayers as incense in offering and now it's prayers they are hearing...
Still why no instructions or example of the original apostles as I'm sure many died before Rev. was penned..Honestly , you really have to dig/stretch for biblical/ original apostolic support..

 

[prodromos]

Again, there is no evidence to suggest that they did not die.



You're right. Death is the event that produces dead bodies. However, that they experienced death and their bodies are dead means that they are dead.



1 Thess 4:16

Just so you know, the word translated as "dead" here is nekros, which means literally "dead".



Thus, they are dead.

Are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob dead?

 

[Catholic Christian]

..They they use prayers as incense in offering and now it's prayers they are hearing...

Luke 15:10
"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

Angels and saints are spirit. And repentence is a thing of the heart. So, I believe this scripture indicates that spirits in heaven are aware of our actions and the things we say.

 

[Asinner]

I pray thee good sir, to hearken unto my post.

This should be your sig. Made me lol!

Love,
Christina

 

[namericanboy]

Luke 15:10
"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

Angels and saints are spirit. And repentence is a thing of the heart. So, I believe this scripture indicates that spirits in heaven are aware of our actions and the things we say.

No one denies they don't observe us and that angels don't enter this realm and communicate with us... My question is how do you know that Mary has the ability to hear 10,000 people praying quietly in their hearts. Where is it taught that they operate with God's attributes..Don't get me started on the whole Mary apparitions thing...I still say this whole "contact" thing was mans idea..

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I just skip the middleman and go straight to the top.

Asking my family and friends to pray FOR me is a bit different than me praying TO a saint.

Jesus taught us the Lord's Prayer, and that's good enough for me. "Our Father, who art in heaven...". Not "Our blessed mother mary" or "Our St. Christopher". So that's why I don't pray to the saints.

I'm sure the saints DO pray for the people here on earth, without a doubt. But I don't think that has anything to do with people praying TO them.

The Augsburg Confession speaks of the proper and improper use of the saints:
"Our churches teach that the history of the saints may be set before us so that we may follow their example of faith and good works, according to our calling. For example, the emperor may follow the example of David (2 Samuel) in making war to drive away the Turk from his country. For both are kings. But Scripture does not teach that we are to call on the saints or to ask the saints for help. Scripture sets before us the one Christ as the Mediator, Atoning Sacrifice, High Priest, and Intercessor (1 Timothy 2:5-6). He is to be prayed to. He has promised that He will hear our prayer (Jhn 14:13). This is the worship that He approves above all other worship, that He be called upon in all afflictions. 'If anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father' (1 John 1:21)." Augsburg Confession, Article XXI)


The Apology of the Augsburg Confession explains:
"Furthermore, even if the saints do pray for the Church, that does not mean that they should be invoked. Our Confession affirms only this: Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. Since neither a command nor a promise nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures about the invocation of the saints, it makes sense that conscience remains uncertain about this invocation. Since prayer should be made from faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation? Without the testimony of Scripture, how do we know that the saints know about the prayers of each one? Some plainly ascribe divinity to the saints, namely, that they discern the silent thoughts of our minds" (Apology, Article XXI, 8-11)



From the WELS Q&A

 

[E.C.]

Correction young man. "Nekros" means "dead". It can also mean "body" in the sense of a corpse, but it is the primary meaning of "dead" which forms the root of "necromancy" as they are trying to gain knowledge from the spirits of the dead and not their corpses.

This is of course quite different from seeking intercessory prayer from those who are alive in Christ. We simply ask them to combine their prayers to our heavenly Father with ours. We do not seek to have them speak to us in order to gain knowledge of future events as is the primary purpose of necromancy.

John

Thank you for correcting, its all Greek to me!

You're right. Death is the event that produces dead bodies. However, that they experienced death and their bodies are dead means that they are dead.

The bodies are dead, but the souls are not. Your quoted portion here implies that their souls did indeed die, which they did not.

1 Thess 4:16

Sounds like the resurrection of the dead.

If I recall correctly, that is when one's soul returns with one's body.
Something like that. Haven't read much on it.

Thus, they are dead.

The way you are saying dead makes it sound as if there is no eternal life.

Just because one's body is dead, does not mean one's soul is also dead.

 

[Hentenza]

I pray thee good sir, to hearken unto my post.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as 'prayer'. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! Perhaps this misconception came about from bad translation? At any rate, I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible.

1 Timothy 2:5
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

[PreachersWife2004]

In context...

1 Timothy 2:1-6
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

How does 1 Timothy 2:4 relate to intercession for others? More likely it is verse 1 itself that lends to intercession for others, but it doesn't mention the saints or Mary as intercessors. Indeed, it goes on to say that there is only one mediator. Doesn't really get much plainer than that.

 

[E.C.]

There is a difference between "mediate" and "intercede".

Mediation is going between. Mediators, for lack of a better description, are the ones that go between people to bring them together. The middle man so to say.

Interceding means to act on one's behalf.


Christ is the one mediator. The saints are intercessors. They're kind of like witnesses in a court trial when you think about it. Or signatures on a petition.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

There is a difference between "mediate" and "intercede".

Mediation is going between. Mediators, for lack of a better description, are the ones that go between people to bring them together. The middle man so to say.

Interceding means to act on one's behalf.


Christ is the one mediator. The saints are intercessors. They're kind of like witnesses in a court trial when you think about it. Or signatures on a petition.

So you treat the saints as though they were just like your best friend. You "pray" to them asking them to pray to God for you? What evidence do you have that they can hear you? How can they hear you and me at the same time?

 

[E.C.]

So you treat the saints as though they were just like your best friend. You "pray" to them asking them to pray to God for you? What evidence do you have that they can hear you? How can they hear you and me at the same time?

I could tell stories. None of my own, for I am not blessed like that.

But I do know people that have been visited by the saints in their dreams.

However, recalling these would result in one of two things 1) them being ignored or 2) the parties involved being demeaned.


But I believe that it was either Hebrews or Revelation that mentioned that the saints in heaven can hear us.

 

[prodromos]

1 Timothy 2:5
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

What, pray tell, does that have to do with being an intercessor?

John

 

[Philothei]

There you are... that is where ya'll hang out ha?? Just droping in to say hi

we do use the word "mesitria" intercesor/mediatrix.... in our suplication service to Theotokos. but the understanding is that Theotokos is that "intercessor" to her Son because of her special relationship to Him... I wanted to add that all saints are intercessors not only Theotokos. Her place among the saints is that of honor because of who she is in relationship to the incarnation. Like we have the same great honor to St. John the Baptist as he was Christ's cousin and the forerunner....

Hope that helps.
Philothei

 

[prodromos]

How can they hear you and me at the same time?

Through God's grace. During the Communist era in Russia, Fr John of Kronstadt was required to hear the confessions of his parishioners before they could receive Holy Communion. The priests that remained were few because thousands had already been murdered throughout Russia, and God gave Fr John the grace to be able to hear each individuals' confession even though they were all confessing their sins at the same time. He was able to point to individuals and remind them of other things they needed to confess, just as if he had heard their confessions individually, so they could prepare themselves to receive Holy Communion worthily. This was given to a man whose soul was still bound to his earthly flesh. How much more will such grace be available to those holy ones who are now completely free from the cares of their earthly bodies.

John

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Oh, I also believe in "visits" from the saints. My aunt visits my mom and me on a regular basis in dreams, and oddly enough, my kids' toys. (Don't ask!)

I could tell stories. None of my own, for I am not blessed like that.

But I do know people that have been visited by the saints in their dreams.

However, recalling these would result in one of two things 1) them being ignored or 2) the parties involved being demeaned.


But I believe that it was either Hebrews or Revelation that mentioned that the saints in heaven can hear us.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Not that I don't believe you, but is there some proof of this somewhere? There really is no scriptural backing for anything like this.

This is attributing divine attributes to a man. There's only one man I know of that was divine.

Do you see the issue I am having here?

Thanks for your reply, though. I appreciate it.

Through God's grace. During the Communist era in Russia, Fr John of Kronstadt was required to hear the confessions of his parishioners before they could receive Holy Communion. The priests that remained were few because thousands had already been murdered throughout Russia, and God gave Fr John the grace to be able to hear each individuals' confession even though they were all confessing their sins at the same time. He was able to point to individuals and remind them of other things they needed to confess, just as if he had heard their confessions individually, so they could prepare themselves to receive Holy Communion worthily. This was given to a man whose soul was still bound to his earthly flesh. How much more will such grace be available to those holy ones who are now completely free from the cares of their earthly bodies.

John

 

[E.C.]

Not that I don't believe you, but is there some proof of this somewhere? There really is no scriptural backing for anything like this.

This is attributing divine attributes to a man. There's only one man I know of that was divine.

Do you see the issue I am having here?

Thanks for your reply, though. I appreciate it.

I believe that the Apostles went about healing and so forth. Remember, I believe it was, St. Peter and a crippled man who was either in front of or near the Temple?

The priest, St. John of Kronstadt, was not doing the working. God was. However, God was doing so via St. John of Kronstadt who was a priest when he was on this earth.
The best comparison that I can think of would be a puppet. God is the puppeteer and the saint, in this case St. John of Kronstadt, was the puppet. God was using him.

 

[Philothei]

yes, all healing spritual or physical is based on scripture as our priests are supposed to baptise, heal, and instruct, taking out demons etc...from the people like the Apostles did... That is all scriptually based. The reason maybe your confession does not take this lightly is because there can be abuses.. in that ministry and unfortunately people such as always existed can claim of possesing the spirit to "trick" people... mere magicians and not truly spirit driven ministers...But in the end as the Bible says "you will know them by their fruits"... that is how to discern if it is from God or from the devil....

 

[k2svpete]

There are some really elementary truths that are not understoood here people.

The advocates of praying to saints, Mary etc. all say that we aren't told not to. I contend that the principle of praying to those that are dead (and don't try and bring up the 'but they're in heaven' line. If you knew you bible you would know that the righteous sleep until the resurrection).

What is clearly given is the example of how to pray by Jesus himself, no less. That doesn't mean that is the only prayer we make but it is the format to build on. Very simple.

Anyone who want to pull the passage about praying for one another better keep it in mind that this was addressed to a group of living people, above ground breathing people. If you can bring along a dead saint so that you can have a chat with them over a cuppa and ask them if they would mind praying for you in regard to 'such and such' then I'll listen to you.