Rejection of Mary as your mediator

[PreachersWife2004]

Excellent points!

I don't ever recall in the O.T. any prophet who made petitions to God through another. Talking to an angel or another with a request, to me, is NOT the same as making petitions to God.

For example, unless Mary is in my presence and I personally ask her, I am not going to ask her to pray for me. I am not going to imagine she is there and I am not going to imagine she can hear me.

But some may argue against this saying that Mary and the Saints and the Angels are at a distance and can hear all our requests. Alright, so whatever all the millions of people directing prayers to them at once? That does not make sense. They would either need people (angels) or other individuals to deliver the prayers to them or be omniscient, and I believe they have none of those two qualities.

Simply put it, if I am in heaven, and 2 billion people happen to ask me at once for me to intercede for them, I do not expect to hear their requests because I am not omniscient and omnipresent, and likewise, I expect angels are like this too. Satan hears a lot of things because he has an army of millions upon millions of angels working for him and he, as the book of job says, "going to and fro from the ends of the earth". I do not believe the Saints do such a thing, to me, it is ridiculous, and giving them attributes they do not have.

Simply put, if I am on earth, I am going to hear the petitions of people who are in my presence and likewise, unless you are in the presence of Saints in heaven, I do not believe they will hear your requests.

 

[Thekla]

the OT is pre-Resurrection and Pentecost

 

[PreachersWife2004]

the OT is pre-Resurrection and Pentecost

Okay, show me an example in the new testament where someone prays to someone in heaven to pray to God for them.

 

[Philothei]

From someone else perspective:
"Intercession of the Saints.
It has been the teaching of the Church from the earliest times that the saints in heaven pray for those on earth and that we can ask them for their prayers. When I was considering this doctrine before I became Orthodox, I realized that a false philosophy was influencing my faith. I had not dealt with the full implications of Christ’s Resurrection. Death where is thy sting? Grave where is thy victory? (I Cor. 1 5:5) Consider that the Apocalypse (Revelation) shows the martyrs praying under the altar, for the persecutions to end (Rev. 6:9-10). Also the earliest historical documents of the Church, such as the accounts of the martyrdoms of Sts. Polycarp and Ignatius dating from approximately 108 and 110 A.D.), show Christians praying to the new martyrs and rejoicing that a new saint was in heaven to intercede for them.
You ask me how the saints can hear our prayers. Since the saints are part of the Body of Christ, and Christ is omnipresent, then by God’s grace anything said to them can reach them. If you look for more details than that, you will find yourself trying to apply rules of physics and geometry to the Omnipresent, Omnipotent Creator of all, and will find that rules which work for finite things do not work for an Infinite Being. That our prayers do reach the saints is all we really need to know.
What do we pray for? Understand that the word "pray" is only an old-fashioned word meaning "ask." We ask the saints to intercede for us before God. We ask them to pray for us just as I might ask my neighbor to pray for me.
Why ask the saints to pray? St. James the Apostle wrote, The fervent effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much (Jas. 5:16), and we have the assurance of the Church that these have been accounted by God as righteous.
Also, we know that if we ask anything according to His will... we have what we ask of Him (I John 5:14-15) and those who live before the throne of God have sure access to the knowledge of His will. Thus being free of sin and the cares of this life and knowing God’s will, they pray with great effect. Besides, much of the time there is no Christian nearby whose prayers I can ask; but the saints are always available. This by no means negates the responsibility of Christians who are yet in the world to pray for one another, for this we are obligated and privileged to do. Being able to pray to the saints in heaven merely insures that someone whose prayers will be heard can pray at any time, for our need for God’s help is great.

Intercession for the dead
Christians who have died have not necessarily attained instant perfection. Although those who are entitled ‘‘saints" have attained perfection, the Church believes that most continue to grow to the fullness of the stature of Christ. For if Christ learned obedience on the earth (Heb. 5:8), how much more do we need to learn even though God may have granted us salvation? Therefore, we pray because the Body of Christ is one, and because no member of the Body should be deprived of the help of intercessory prayer. Thus we pray for the dead in Christ, joining our feeble love to God’s. Even our poor prayers may be of help to them, and we are obligated to pray for all Christians everywhere.
Relics
The first account of a miracle done through the relics of a saint is in II Kings 13:20-21, where a dead man who was laid on the bones of the Prophet Elisha is raised from the dead, We also have the account in Acts 5:15-16, and 19:11-12 of relics of St. Peter and St. Paul, i.e. St. Peter’s shadow and pieces of St. Paul’s apron, effecting miracles by God’s grace. How can we deny that miracles take place through the relics of holy saints when we have examples of it in Scripture? Also, the earliest accounts of Christians show them reverencing the relics of the martyrs, e.g. the accounts of the martyrdoms of Sts. Polycarp and Ignatius. Do not be mistaken, it is God who grants the miracles, but He does it through the relics of the saints. If God so honors them, how can we deny them honor?
Part of the problem of accepting the validity of relics may be our being raised in a society which teaches that the body is a thing which one’s true self or soul inhabits: that it is the inner person which matters, the body being no more than a vehicle which will be discarded. But Scripture teaches that the body is as much a part of the whole person as the soul. Were this not the case, why would God promise to raise the bodies of the righteous dead? Why would He not simply make them new bodies from some other material or dispose with bodies entirely in the resurrection? But since God has promised to raise the saints’ bodies from death and corruption, we must teach that there is a true identity between the body and the soul. Therefore, we honor the saints’ bodies, for they are a link to the saints in heaven, they have been honored by God in miracles and signs, and because we have been taught to do so from the beginning."


Also in St. Hyppolytus Eucaristic prayers we could see that there are intercessory prayers to Mary and St. John the Baptist.

This Eucarist was celebated as early as 2nd Century 2 centuries prior to the radification of the New Testament... thus the community of the faithful did celebrate by praying for intercession of the saints.


http://roman-orthodox.tripod.com/liturgy.html

 

[E.C.]

the OT is pre-Resurrection and Pentecost

Okay, show me an example in the new testament where someone prays to someone in heaven to pray to God for them.

The pre-Resurrection and pre-Pentecost points are very important to make because:
1) Christ had not conquered death yet.
2) The Apostles had not been filled with the Holy Spirit and thus had not started to preach.
3) There were not yet any martyrs for the stuff of which the Apostles had been spreading. I say this because the babies whom Herod had killed are considered martyrs. Thus, no martyrs means no saints (yet).


There are historical records of venerating of saints. Just because it is not explicitly written in the NT, does not mean it was never a practice.

[BIBLE]Hebrews 11:1[/BIBLE]

 

[Thekla]

Okay, show me an example in the new testament where someone prays to someone in heaven to pray to God for them.

the reference to the NT is not explicit as in an admonishment.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the unity of all members in the body of Christ, Who is never divided and Who conquered death, is summarized in Paul's teaching (Hebrews, for ex.)

Requests for prayers from the Saints (attested to, for ex., in engraved prayers in the catacombs) confesses the above teachings-on Christ, the Holy Spirit- as true, ie actual. What is believed is practiced. (To some extent, what is not practiced is not believed). We believe that Christ conquered death, is not divided, etc.

 

[E.C.]

Just a thought, why would something that is practiced by all need to be written down?

We all breath, yet there are no instruction manuals title "Breathing 101".

It wasn't until the Reformation when venerating of saints came under fire. Because of whatever abuses some renegades may have been orchestrating, a lot of things were not only thrown out, but thrown out in extremes. Thus began what I like to call the ultra polarization of East vs. West differences.

 

[k2svpete]

Bodies, not the soul.


Resurrection of the dead: the souls in heaven and the bodies on earth reunite. I believe it is one of the signs of the End Times.

Also part of the reason why we don't like cremation.


The soul or the body?

There is a difference. Just because one may be, does not mean the other is.

No such thing as immortal soul buddy. To say there is, is unscriptural.

Here's a simple question of logic as applied in a timeline setting.

Why would someone's soul (all thier consciouss being) go to heaven only then to sent back to earth to be reunited with a decayed body that is instantly transformed and then go to get judged by God as to whether they are fit to enter the Kingdom?

Wouldn't the acceptance of their soul to heaven make judgement pointless?

 

[k2svpete]

[T]he Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix. This, however, is so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.

No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

—Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 62 (Second Vatican Council)

link
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

I can't believe they published that.

Try this on - mediatrix is a feminised version of mediator. If Christ is our one mediator how can Mary be a mediatirix? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense in logic and even less when examined in the light of scripture.

 

[k2svpete]

the OT is pre-Resurrection and Pentecost

So what's your point?

Jesus and the disciples all taught out of the OT so if something doesn't ring true there it just isn't right. Very simple, both the old and new testament are very relevant to us.

 

[k2svpete]

The pre-Resurrection and pre-Pentecost points are very important to make because:
1) Christ had not conquered death yet.
2) The Apostles had not been filled with the Holy Spirit and thus had not started to preach.
3) There were not yet any martyrs for the stuff of which the Apostles had been spreading. I say this because the babies whom Herod had killed are considered martyrs. Thus, no martyrs means no saints (yet).


There are historical records of venerating of saints. Just because it is not explicitly written in the NT, does not mean it was never a practice.

[BIBLE]Hebrews 11:1[/BIBLE]

Tell you what it may not be explicitly written in the NT that only people with brown eyes can be Christians but I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say that that wasn't the case.

If it is not in the scripture it is a doctrine of man. The bible is our map, put it aside, or use it selectively at your peril.

 

[k2svpete]

the reference to the NT is not explicit as in an admonishment.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the unity of all members in the body of Christ, Who is never divided and Who conquered death, is summarized in Paul's teaching (Hebrews, for ex.)

Requests for prayers from the Saints (attested to, for ex., in engraved prayers in the catacombs) confesses the above teachings-on Christ, the Holy Spirit- as true, ie actual. What is believed is practiced. (To some extent, what is not practiced is not believed). We believe that Christ conquered death, is not divided, etc.

There's plenty of rebuking done in the epistles to the churches of the day even then. So I wouldn't keep pointing to a practice that was confined to those who were in the early church in Rome.

 

[WarEagle]

the reference to the NT is not explicit as in an admonishment.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the unity of all members in the body of Christ, Who is never divided and Who conquered death, is summarized in Paul's teaching (Hebrews, for ex.)

So then, because we have the Holy Spirit, it's OK to violate God's commands against contact with the dead?

Requests for prayers from the Saints (attested to, for ex., in engraved prayers in the catacombs) confesses the above teachings-on Christ, the Holy Spirit- as true, ie actual.

So are you saying that because there's a record of somebody doing something a long time ago, it's now to be taken with the same authority as scripture?

Just because somebody in the early church violated God's commands, now we're supposed to do it, too?

Hasn't it ever occurred to you that they may have done these things, but that they might have been wrong?

 

[Thekla]

to respond to two posts at once

Christ conquered death, Sheol was emptied. When we die in Christ, the NT attests that only our body is "dead". Either Christs body (believers) are united in Him and Christ conquered death, or Satan through death is able to divide the body of Christ.

I believe the first option; Christ has conquered death, His body is not divided, and in Him, we "have come to the heavenly Jerusalem", and are surrounded by "a cloud of witnesses (martyria)" and, as in Revelations, they are alive in Christ.

 

[jckstraw72]

Jesus and the disciples all taught out of the OT so if something doesn't ring true there it just isn't right. Very simple, both the old and new testament are very relevant to us.

death still reigned in the OT, not so in the NT

 

[PreachersWife2004]

So getting back to Mary...where is the scriptural (NOT traditional) backing for praying to Mary?

 

[namericanboy]

And again dear sister in Christ, no-one denies their spirits aren't with Christ...Christ gives us a pattern for prayer..No where in the NT are we given information on praying to them...We know they obseve us according to Romans..In fact that would have been the best place to explain about contact to them outside of our realm..

 

[jckstraw72]

So getting back to Mary...where is the scriptural (NOT traditional) backing for praying to Mary?

you're obviously asking for a specific verse which you well know does not exist. But then again, neither is there a specific verse speaking of the Trinity -- but what is in the Bible has implications that lead us to see the Trinity, and it is the same for the intercession of the Saints. People can be led by the Spirit too ya know, we don't need everything plainly written out for us -- we can take Scriptural ideas and see the implications of them.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

you're obviously asking for a specific verse which you well know does not exist. But then again, neither is there a specific verse speaking of the Trinity -- but what is in the Bible has implications that lead us to see the Trinity, and it is the same for the intercession of the Saints. People can be led by the Spirit too ya know, we don't need everything plainly written out for us -- we can take Scriptural ideas and see the implications of them.

1. There are scriptural references to the Trinity - I'm not going to hash them out in a thread about Mary. The analogy is moot.

2. There are no references for praying to Mary in the bible. There's not even a hint of it. There is, however, a very specific reference to Jesus teaching us how to pray: "Our Father..."

The bible clearly states who we are to pray to, so if a person is claiming they are led by the Holy Spirit to pray to Mary, they've been drinking too much kool-aid.

 

[Thekla]

And again dear sister in Christ, no-one denies their spirits aren't with Christ...Christ gives us a pattern for prayer..No where in the NT are we given information on praying to them...We know they obseve us according to Romans..In fact that would have been the best place to explain about contact to them outside of our realm..

to the Christian (IMO) the "realm" is what is in Christ