Rejection of Mary as your mediator (2)

[beamishboy]

I think it was more of a "Hey, thats awesome!" kind of thing than anything to be worried about.

God bless.

Really? It sure doesn't sound like that to me.

 

[Annolennar]

Really? It sure doesn't sound like that to me.

-rolls eyes at post-

Well thats good to know, because your opinion is sure to be unbiased and totally objective...

---

@ Anhelyna: I would say don't worry about the hate-mongering that often floats about these forums, but you've been around here for a while, I'm sure you're used to the drill.

The various rites and churches are incredibly interesting. I've always found the Eastern Catholic churches to be vastly fascinating, even before I was Catholic myself. Someone should start a thread about the various rites and how they are expressed throughout the world, I'm sure we'd all learn a lot about our brothers and sisters.

Out of curiosity, would your church be Byzantine Rite, or something else?

God bless.

 

[beamishboy]

-rolls eyes at post-

Well thats good to know, because your opinion is sure to be unbiased and totally objective...

As unbiased and totally objective as your opinion, no doubt.

 

[Annolennar]

As unbiased and totally objective as your opinion, no doubt.

Somehow I doubt it...

Its okay, though. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Regardless of whether they pray to the saints, their iconodoulia is even worse than the Roman Catholics.

Yeah, but they sure are purrrty.

 

[beamishboy]

Somehow I doubt it...

Its okay, though. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I've learnt a lot from GT about what to expect in the Christian community. Everyone is divided according to whether they're RCs or Protestants. You need to go on a journey of self-discovery if you don't realise your own bias. Please don't reply about how unbiased you are. Nobody will believe you except people who similarly have not gone on a journey of self-discovery.

The chasm between the two religions is impassable - let's make no mistake about it and let's all stop kidding ourselves.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The chasm between the two religions is impassable - let's make no mistake about it and let's all stop kidding ourselves.

__________________

So which 2 would you put in place of the "Us" and "Ye" in this verse

Luke 16:26 And on all of these, between Us and Ye a great chasm hath been established, so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye not be able to, no yet thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276>.

Hebrews 11:29 By Faith They crossed-over/diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Seaas thru Dry: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Regardless of whether they pray to the saints, their iconodoulia is even worse than the Roman Catholics.

Absolutely scandalous.
And as a "Christian seeker" you're fully qualified to judge the merits of our praxis. (/eyes roll like slot machines)

 

[Annolennar]

I've learnt a lot from GT about what to expect in the Christian community. Everyone is divided according to whether they're RCs or Protestants. You need to go on a journey of self-discovery if you don't realise your own bias. Please don't reply about how unbiased you are. Nobody will believe you except people who similarly have not gone on a journey of self-discovery.

The chasm between the two religions is impassable - let's make no mistake about it and let's all stop kidding ourselves.

Hmm, I find that odd. Particularly since I joined this forum a couple years ago as a Methodist, having grown up as a strong Protestant in a strong Protestant home. Since then, I've crossed that "impassable" gap, and without any changes in my fundamental Christianity.

There weren't any life-jarring tragedies that caused me to like Protestant Christianity any less - most of my friends and family are still Protestant, and I love them and their faith as much or more than ever - it was just simply a case of the Holy Spirit tenderly guiding me to where I needed to be, and I came to understand what Catholic Christianity really is.

Of course, I'm biased. I'm not sure where on earth you got the idea that I wasn't. Everyone is, because everyone holds beliefs. But don't make the mistake of assuming that everyone is so polarized as you are. Most Christians I know (and I know quite a variety of denominations, let me tell you what!) hold each other, regardless of denomination, in the highest esteem as siblings in the Body of Christ.

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't really give much credit to it when a 13 year old child, who seems to harbor a hatred that borders on the pathological, tells me that I need to go on a journey of self-discovery.

I'll reiterate: You're entitled to feel as you do, and to your opinion. But that doesn't mean I'll stop praying for you, and your wounds to be healed.

Just remember: Love, not hate, is Christ-like; and everyone else doesn't have to be wrong for you to be right.

God Bless, and I love you, brother in Christ.

 

[Anhelyna]

-

---

@ Anhelyna: I would say don't worry about the hate-mongering that often floats about these forums, but you've been around here for a while, I'm sure you're used to the drill.

The various rites and churches are incredibly interesting. I've always found the Eastern Catholic churches to be vastly fascinating, even before I was Catholic myself. Someone should start a thread about the various rites and how they are expressed throughout the world, I'm sure we'd all learn a lot about our brothers and sisters.

Out of curiosity, would your church be Byzantine Rite, or something else?

God bless.

The best way of learning about us is the easiest - go and see and experience the deep spirituality of the Divine Liturgy of our Father among the Saints John Chrysostom

Yes the UGCC does use the Byzantine Rite - and we also use Ukrainian

The use of the vernacular is not a modern 'thing'

Now back to our normal service

 

[beamishboy]

Hmm, I find that odd. Particularly since I joined this forum a couple years ago as a Methodist, having grown up as a strong Protestant in a strong Protestant home. Since then, I've crossed that "impassable" gap, and without any changes in my fundamental Christianity.

There weren't any life-jarring tragedies that caused me to like Protestant Christianity any less - most of my friends and family are still Protestant, and I love them and their faith as much or more than ever - it was just simply a case of the Holy Spirit tenderly guiding me to where I needed to be, and I came to understand what Catholic Christianity really is.

Of course, I'm biased. I'm not sure where on earth you got the idea that I wasn't. Everyone is, because everyone holds beliefs. But don't make the mistake of assuming that everyone is so polarized as you are. Most Christians I know (and I know quite a variety of denominations, let me tell you what!) hold each other, regardless of denomination, in the highest esteem as siblings in the Body of Christ.

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't really give much credit to it when a 13 year old child, who seems to harbor a hatred that borders on the pathological, tells me that I need to go on a journey of self-discovery.

I'll reiterate: You're entitled to feel as you do, and to your opinion. But that doesn't mean I'll stop praying for you, and your wounds to be healed.

Just remember: Love, not hate, is Christ-like; and everyone else doesn't have to be wrong for you to be right.

God Bless, and I love you, brother in Christ.

You totally misunderstand the beamishboy but that's ok. The beamishboy has been on a journey of self-discovery and can forgive readily those who misunderstand him. I'll be starting a thread soon on how to have real peace between RCs and Protestants. As you know, any discussion in GT is bound to end in open war between the two. I think those who do not recognise the deep-seated strong feelings between the two have not really gone on a journey of self discovery and they are very much in denial. You will forgive me for saying that in my opinion, you certainly haven't been through a process of serious self-discovery. I have nothing against people like you. I understand you perfectly and I don't want to sound patronising but I was once like that.

Cheers!

 

[Philothei]

I

have nothing against people like you. I understand you perfectly and I don't want to sound patronising but I was once like that.

Now that is a parent's dream child

 

[Annolennar]

You totally misunderstand the beamishboy but that's ok. The beamishboy has been on a journey of self-discovery and can forgive readily those who misunderstand him. I'll be starting a thread soon on how to have real peace between RCs and Protestants. As you know, any discussion in GT is bound to end in open war between the two. I think those who do not recognise the deep-seated strong feelings between the two have not really gone on a journey of self discovery and they are very much in denial. You will forgive me for saying that in my opinion, you certainly haven't been through a process of serious self-discovery. I have nothing against people like you. I understand you perfectly and I don't want to sound patronising but I was once like that.

Cheers!

Hehehe! You're cute sometimes, I'll give you that.

Its ironic, since I was actually thinking that I was somewhat like you not so very long ago. So I understand where you're coming from. I used to think I was special, and that no one could possibly have come up with all the amazing ideas that I had come up with.

Its par for the course when you're that age, I suppose. Age and experience tend to wear away at it.

Anyway, thanks for the laugh, and I look forward to your thread.

 

[TheCub]

Common Objection – I Timothy 2:5
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"First of all, then, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our Savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica] himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all." [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. I Tim 2:1-6).
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]
Dr. Miravalle continues, "One objection that resurfaces particularly in various ecumenical arenas is on the classic Pauline text of 1 Tim 2:5: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Although the overall context of the passage in which the verse occurs highlights the value of human "supplications, prayers, intercessions" from the faithful [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](cf. v. 1-4)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica], nonetheless the "one Mediator" reference is interpreted by some in the sense of "exclusivity," as a mandate prohibiting any other subordinate mediation within, and in service to, the one mediation of Jesus Christ…
"The general concept of mediation as manifest in Sacred Scripture reveals a mediator [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Gk. mesites)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica] as a person who seeks to intervene between two parties with the purpose of reconciliation and union of the two respective parties. The task of the mediator is not to further distance the two respective parties, but to unite and reconcile. Sacred Scripture, as we shall see, reveals divinely designated mediators chosen explicitly by God to assist in the process of uniting and reconciling God and the human family. It is in this context that we must examine 1 Tim 2:5.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]"The proper understanding of "Christ the one Mediator" text of 1 Tim 2:5 presupposes a critical and fundamental distinction: the one and perfect mediation of Jesus Christ does not prevent or prohibit, but rather provides and calls for a sharing and participation by others in a subordinate and secondary fashion in this one perfect mediation of the Lord.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica] The perfect mediation of Jesus Christ allows for, as a quality and manifestation of its perfection, the participation of others in His one and primordial mediation to the Father.
Scripture reveals, in the context of several parallels, not only the possibility but in fact the obligation of Christians to participate in that which is in the first place exclusively true of Jesus Christ.
"The one Sonship of Jesus Christ. There is only one true begotten Son of the Father. This is the Logos, the Word who became flesh. At the same time, we are called to become adopted sons of God [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. 2: Cor 5:17; 1 Jn 3:1; Jn 1:12; Gal 2:20; 2 Pet 1:4)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. Adopted sonship is a participation in the one Sonship of Jesus Christ, which only manifests the glory and efficacy of the one Sonship of the Lord.
"The One Priesthood of Jesus Christ. Hebrews makes reference to the uniqueness and singularity of Jesus Christ, the "high priest" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. Heb 3:1; 4:14; 5:10)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica], who alone as Priest and Victim is offered "for the sanctification of us all" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. Heb 10:10)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. At the same time, all Christians are called in different levels and degrees to participate in the one Priesthood of Jesus Christ. This is done in a special way in the ministerial priesthood in the sacramental continuation of the offering of the Sacrifice of Calvary. It is also shared in by the "royal priesthood" of the laity [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. 1 Pet 2:9) [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]where all baptized into Christ are called to "offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](1 Pet 2:5)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. Christians thereby, whether in degrees of the priesthood of the laity or in ministerial priesthood, are called to participate and share in that which is exclusively true of Jesus Christ, the one High Priest.
"Living in the One Christ. The life of grace is a participation in the life and love of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We do not fully possess in ourselves the infinite being and attributes of God. When the Greek and Latin Fathers exhort us to "deification" and "divinization," they are calling the faithful to participation in the divine nature. We become "partakers of the divine nature" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. 2 Pet 1:4)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. In the order of participation, our life of grace is dependent on "Christ who lives in me" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Gal 2:20)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica], a sharing in the one divine nature of Christ Jesus.
"It is in this context of the scriptural imperative for Christians to participate in that which is uniquely true of the Lord, that we properly understand 1 Tim 2:5. The perfect mediation of Jesus Christ likewise elicits a Christian imperative for all baptized Christians to participate and profoundly share in the one mediation of the Lord. As adopted sons of the one Son; as priests, ministerial and royal, sharing in the sacrifice of the one Priest; as partakers in the one divine nature of Christ, all Christians must also participate in the one mediation of Christ. The People of God must mediate to the world (and to one another) the fullness of the salvific Gospel of Christ the one Mediator. (5)
[Note: I Timothy 2:1 calls for our prayers to be offered for the benefit of others. Are not such prayers a form of mediation? (6) ]
"The primordial question remains: does it obscure, or does it manifest the glory of the one mediation of Jesus Christ to have others participate in this one mediation? This question is succinctly answered when one imagines a Church and a world without adopted sons and daughters participating in the one Sonship; a Church and a world without priests sharing in the one Priesthood; as well as a Church and a world without participation in the divine nature leading to the sanctification of the human family.
"Participation in the one mediation of Jesus Christ constitutes a critical Christian imperative which in a most incarnational way profoundly manifests the glory of the one primary and foundational mediation of Jesus Christ; it is a subordinate mediation in the one Mediation upon which the life and efficacy of the Church as a whole finds her own identity and purpose. The Church must always participate in the one mediation of the Lord, and through her prayer and sacramental life, through her Petrine office and apostolic succession, mediate to the world the truth and life of the One Mediator until he comes again in Glory.
"The written Word of God also points to several examples of created persons called upon directly by the Father to participate in acts of subordinate mediation. The Patriarchs were chosen by God to mediate a covenantal relationship between Yahweh and his chosen nation, starting with Abraham [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. Gen 12:2; Gen 15:18)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. Moses was the great Old Testament mediator, who acted as the chosen "intermediary" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. Gal 3:19) [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]to unite Yahweh and the Israelites in the great covenant of Exodus. The moral and "physical" mediation of Moses is illustrated in Exodus, when the hands of Moses had to be elevated and sustained by others in order for Yahweh’s favor in battle to continue to reach the chosen People [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. Ex 17:11-13)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica].
"The Prophets were chosen by God and granted divine illumination by the Spirit of Truth to be mediators of communication between Yahweh and the people of Israel. The Angels, as God’s secondary causes, fill the pages of both Old and New Testaments in their role as heavenly mediators between God and his people of faith.
"St. Paul tells us in Galatians: "Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Gal. 3:19-20)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. Revelation plainly attests to the reality of created personal mediators, both human and angelic, who can be seen as sharing in the one perfect mediation of Jesus Christ at the reconciling service of the Father and the human family.
"The Second Vatican Council substantially establishes the legitimacy of subordinate mediation as a participation in the perfect mediation of Jesus Christ, while confirming the fruit of subordinate mediation as a manifestation of that which is uniquely true and dependent upon the "one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
(Cf. 1 Tim 2:5):
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Lumen Gentium, n. 62)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica].[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]
"What then of Maternal Mediation? How does the Mother of Jesus participate in the one Mediation of the Lord?
"In regard to Mary Mediatrix and her unique sharing in the one mediation of Jesus Christ, the Council Fathers tell us:
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. She experiences it continuously and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that, encouraged by this maternal help, they may more closely adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Lumen Gentium, n.62)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica].[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]
"The Blessed Virgin Mary shares like no other creature, angel or saint, in the one mediation of Jesus Christ, and therefore is rightly and uniquely referred to as the "Mediatrix" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Lumen Gentium, n. 62)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. Mary in a way all her own and beyond all other creatures participates in 1 Tim 2:5, because of her unique coredemptive participation in the acquisition of grace with and under Jesus as the New Eve that consequently results in her unique mediatorial task in the distribution of the graces of Calvary. John Paul II explains in [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]Redemptoris Mater[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]:
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"Mary entered, in a way all her own, into the one mediation ‘between God and men’ which is the mediation of the man Christ Jesus [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. 1 Tim 2:5)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]...we must say that through this fullness of grace and supernatural life she was especially predisposed to cooperation with Christ, the one Mediator of human salvation. And such cooperation is precisely this mediation subordinated to the mediation of Christ...In Mary’s case we have a special and exceptional mediation..."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]
"St. Thomas Aquinas succinctly sums up the principle which articulates not only the legitimacy of Marian mediation but also the legitimacy of all Christians participating in that one perfect mediation of Jesus: "Christ alone is the perfect mediator between God and man...but there is nothing to prevent others in a certain way from being called mediators between God and man insofar as they, by preparing or serving, cooperate in uniting men to God."
"Our Lady is the Coredemptrix who uniquely shares in the one mediation of Christ in acquiring the fruits of the Redemption, and as a result she uniquely participates in that selfsame perfect mediation of Christ as Mediatrix of the graces of the Redemption, bringing to the People of God, as the Council says, "the gifts of eternal salvation." (5)

[/FONT]

 

[Gwenyfur]

Common Objection – I Timothy 2:5
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"First of all, then, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our Savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus,[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica] himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all." [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. I Tim 2:1-6). [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, helvetica]Dr. Miravalle continues, "One objection that resurfaces particularly in various ecumenical arenas is on the classic Pauline text of 1 Tim 2:5: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Although the overall context of the passage in which the verse occurs highlights the value of human "supplications, prayers, intercessions" from the faithful [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](cf. v. 1-4)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica], nonetheless the "one Mediator" reference is interpreted by some in the sense of "exclusivity," as a mandate prohibiting any other subordinate mediation within, and in service to, the one mediation of Jesus Christ…[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"The general concept of mediation as manifest in Sacred Scripture reveals a mediator[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Gk. mesites)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica] as a person who seeks to intervene between two parties with the purpose of reconciliation and union of the two respective parties. The task of the mediator is not to further distance the two respective parties, but to unite and reconcile. Sacred Scripture, as we shall see, reveals divinely designated mediators chosen explicitly by God to assist in the process of uniting and reconciling God and the human family. It is in this context that we must examine 1 Tim 2:5.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"The proper understanding of "Christ the one Mediator" text of 1 Tim 2:5 presupposes a critical and fundamental distinction: the one and perfect mediation of Jesus Christ does not prevent or prohibit, but rather provides and calls for a sharing and participation by others in a subordinate and secondary fashion in this one perfect mediation of the Lord.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica] The perfect mediation of Jesus Christ allows for, as a quality and manifestation of its perfection, the participation of others in His one and primordial mediation to the Father. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]Scripture reveals, in the context of several parallels, not only the possibility but in fact the obligation of Christians to participate in that which is in the first place exclusively true of Jesus Christ. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"The one Sonship of Jesus Christ. There is only one true begotten Son of the Father. This is the Logos, the Word who became flesh. At the same time, we are called to become adopted sons of God [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. 2: Cor 5:17; 1 Jn 3:1; Jn 1:12; Gal 2:20; 2 Pet 1:4)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. Adopted sonship is a participation in the one Sonship of Jesus Christ, which only manifests the glory and efficacy of the one Sonship of the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"The One Priesthood of Jesus Christ. Hebrews makes reference to the uniqueness and singularity of Jesus Christ, the "high priest" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. Heb 3:1; 4:14; 5:10)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica], who alone as Priest and Victim is offered "for the sanctification of us all" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. Heb 10:10)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. At the same time, all Christians are called in different levels and degrees to participate in the one Priesthood of Jesus Christ. This is done in a special way in the ministerial priesthood in the sacramental continuation of the offering of the Sacrifice of Calvary. It is also shared in by the "royal priesthood" of the laity [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. 1 Pet 2:9)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]where all baptized into Christ are called to "offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](1 Pet 2:5)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. Christians thereby, whether in degrees of the priesthood of the laity or in ministerial priesthood, are called to participate and share in that which is exclusively true of Jesus Christ, the one High Priest.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"Living in the One Christ. The life of grace is a participation in the life and love of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We do not fully possess in ourselves the infinite being and attributes of God. When the Greek and Latin Fathers exhort us to "deification" and "divinization," they are calling the faithful to participation in the divine nature. We become "partakers of the divine nature" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. 2 Pet 1:4)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. In the order of participation, our life of grace is dependent on "Christ who lives in me" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Gal 2:20)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica], a sharing in the one divine nature of Christ Jesus. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"It is in this context of the scriptural imperative for Christians to participate in that which is uniquely true of the Lord, that we properly understand 1 Tim 2:5. The perfect mediation of Jesus Christ likewise elicits a Christian imperative for all baptized Christians to participate and profoundly share in the one mediation of the Lord. As adopted sons of the one Son; as priests, ministerial and royal, sharing in the sacrifice of the one Priest; as partakers in the one divine nature of Christ, all Christians must also participate in the one mediation of Christ. The People of God must mediate to the world (and to one another) the fullness of the salvific Gospel of Christ the one Mediator. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](5)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica][Note: I Timothy 2:1 calls for our prayers to be offered for the benefit of others. Are not such prayers a form of mediation? (6) ][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"The primordial question remains: does it obscure, or does it manifest the glory of the one mediation of Jesus Christ to have others participate in this one mediation? This question is succinctly answered when one imagines a Church and a world without adopted sons and daughters participating in the one Sonship; a Church and a world without priests sharing in the one Priesthood; as well as a Church and a world without participation in the divine nature leading to the sanctification of the human family.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"Participation in the one mediation of Jesus Christ constitutes a critical Christian imperative which in a most incarnational way profoundly manifests the glory of the one primary and foundational mediation of Jesus Christ; it is a subordinate mediation in the one Mediation upon which the life and efficacy of the Church as a whole finds her own identity and purpose. The Church must always participate in the one mediation of the Lord, and through her prayer and sacramental life, through her Petrine office and apostolic succession, mediate to the world the truth and life of the One Mediator until he comes again in Glory.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"The written Word of God also points to several examples of created persons called upon directly by the Father to participate in acts of subordinate mediation. The Patriarchs were chosen by God to mediate a covenantal relationship between Yahweh and his chosen nation, starting with Abraham [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. Gen 12:2; Gen 15:18)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. Moses was the great Old Testament mediator, who acted as the chosen "intermediary" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. Gal 3:19)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]to unite Yahweh and the Israelites in the great covenant of Exodus. The moral and "physical" mediation of Moses is illustrated in Exodus, when the hands of Moses had to be elevated and sustained by others in order for Yahweh’s favor in battle to continue to reach the chosen People [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. Ex 17:11-13)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica].[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"The Prophets were chosen by God and granted divine illumination by the Spirit of Truth to be mediators of communication between Yahweh and the people of Israel. The Angels, as God’s secondary causes, fill the pages of both Old and New Testaments in their role as heavenly mediators between God and his people of faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"St. Paul tells us in Galatians: "Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Gal. 3:19-20)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. Revelation plainly attests to the reality of created personal mediators, both human and angelic, who can be seen as sharing in the one perfect mediation of Jesus Christ at the reconciling service of the Father and the human family. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"The Second Vatican Council substantially establishes the legitimacy of subordinate mediation as a participation in the perfect mediation of Jesus Christ, while confirming the fruit of subordinate mediation as a manifestation of that which is uniquely true and dependent upon the "one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. 1 Tim 2:5):[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Lumen Gentium, n. 62)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"What then of Maternal Mediation? How does the Mother of Jesus participate in the one Mediation of the Lord?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"In regard to Mary Mediatrix and her unique sharing in the one mediation of Jesus Christ, the Council Fathers tell us: [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. She experiences it continuously and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that, encouraged by this maternal help, they may more closely adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Lumen Gentium, n.62)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"The Blessed Virgin Mary shares like no other creature, angel or saint, in the one mediation of Jesus Christ, and therefore is rightly and uniquely referred to as the "Mediatrix" [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Lumen Gentium, n. 62)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]. Mary in a way all her own and beyond all other creatures participates in 1 Tim 2:5, because of her unique coredemptive participation in the acquisition of grace with and under Jesus as the New Eve that consequently results in her unique mediatorial task in the distribution of the graces of Calvary. John Paul II explains in [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]Redemptoris Mater[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"Mary entered, in a way all her own, into the one mediation ‘between God and men’ which is the mediation of the man Christ Jesus [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](Cf. 1 Tim 2:5)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica]...we must say that through this fullness of grace and supernatural life she was especially predisposed to cooperation with Christ, the one Mediator of human salvation. And such cooperation is precisely this mediation subordinated to the mediation of Christ...In Mary’s case we have a special and exceptional mediation..."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"St. Thomas Aquinas succinctly sums up the principle which articulates not only the legitimacy of Marian mediation but also the legitimacy of all Christians participating in that one perfect mediation of Jesus: "Christ alone is the perfect mediator between God and man...but there is nothing to prevent others in a certain way from being called mediators between God and man insofar as they, by preparing or serving, cooperate in uniting men to God." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, helvetica]"Our Lady is the Coredemptrix who uniquely shares in the one mediation of Christ in acquiring the fruits of the Redemption, and as a result she uniquely participates in that selfsame perfect mediation of Christ as Mediatrix of the graces of the Redemption, bringing to the People of God, as the Council says, "the gifts of eternal salvation." [/FONT][FONT=Arial, helvetica](5)[/FONT]

Well with all of that justification there...remember to not ask your friends to pray for you....after all...only Jesus can do that

 

[Philothei]

"St. Thomas Aquinas succinctly sums up the principle which articulates not only the legitimacy of Marian mediation but also the legitimacy of all Christians participating in that one perfect mediation of Jesus: "Christ alone is the perfect mediator between God and man...but there is nothing to prevent others in a certain way from being called mediators between God and man insofar as they, by preparing or serving, cooperate in uniting men to God."
"Our Lady is the Coredemptrix who uniquely shares in the one mediation of Christ in acquiring the fruits of the Redemption, and as a result she uniquely participates in that selfsame perfect mediation of Christ as Mediatrix of the graces of the Redemption, bringing to the People of God, as the Council says, "the gifts of eternal salvation."

Now....now... that borders heretical as no "HUMAN" has that power.... ONLY Christ saves... we do know if Mary has perfect mediation.... (?????) it is a speculation on our part ...we ONLY know that "all generations will call her blessed"... Like Gwenyfur said we are all mediators as we pray for each other.. .I can even say she is a mediator as she has a special relationship of Mother and Son with Christ but to call her "THE MEDIATRIX" because of "extra" grace that is to say she is not a human but a "suprerhuman" and as far as we know there is a God and there is man and then a God-man...Christ. Mary NEVER was highter than human....that would upset the balance between the humans and God... and the case is although she was given grace (non-quantitive as we cannot measure God's grace....) we never try to explain it or interpret it. She is a human being who was full of grace and she is blessed among women...and we leave that to that...

She intercedes, she is special but we refrain from giving more explanation as it can be dangerous and lead us into assumptions that we as humans are not to deal with.

Virgin Mary is not a co-redemtrixt.... by no means. She is human unable to participate in anything of God's redemtive sphere as she is human and cannot share into God's essence...

 

[katholikos]

.

Read this LINK

 

[katholikos]

Ukranian Greek Catholic, eh? Thats interesting. I'm just a plain old Roman Rite myself.

And your point is ???? And what does it have to do with the topic ??????

Wo. Excuse me. I really did think it weas interesting. Never mind. :o

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Wo. Excuse me. I really did think it weas interesting. Never mind. :o

Does that mean you will send the same kind of rep message ya sent me
Btw, an interrsting thread over hetr on the Woman in Reve 12

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7276966

The Blessed Virgin Mary is the 'New Ark of the Covenant' as we shall discuss in greater detail below. While the Old Testament ark of the covenant carried the written word of God; for nine months, the Blessed Virgin carried the Incarnate Word (Joh 1:1-14).

 

[Philothei]

The Blessed Virgin Mary is the 'New Ark of the Covenant' as we shall discuss in greater detail below. While the Old Testament ark of the covenant carried the written word of God; for nine months, the Blessed Virgin carried the Incarnate Word (Joh 1:1-14).

That a "tautology" from the Old Testament....