Rejection of Mary as your mediator (2)

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Photini Look at his siggy. That should explain things.

Did ya notice mine

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Word games. Semantics. Jesus is God come in the flesh, God incarnate, and Mary bore him in her womb. Therefore she is the God-bearer.

Greetings. We could use the RCs expertise on the trinity over here on the front lines. HELP!!!!!

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7290836
Was Jesus God?

 

[Brennin]

Word games. Semantics. Jesus is God come in the flesh, God incarnate, and Mary bore him in her womb. Therefore she is the God-bearer.

We know that both men and angels are referred to as 'God' qualitatively in scripture, so it should come as no surprise that Jesus is referred to as theos, although, the Father alone is ho theos and ho agennetos.

Ahh, I see. Denying that Christ is God is what the Jehova's Witnesses do...

Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only Christians who reject the doctrine of the trinity.

 

[Philothei]

We know that both men and angels are referred to as 'God' qualitatively in scripture, so it should come as no surprise that Jesus is referred to as theos, although, the Father alone is ho theos and ho agennetos.



Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only Christians who reject the doctrine of the trinity.

Agennetos would refer to the Father though... not the Son.. As Christ is the "word" as in the Old Testament. The typology that exists in the Old Testament does refer to Christ as the Logos of God.

As per the Holy Trinity... Calling yourself a Christian while not accepting the belief in Holy Trinity is not acceptable since you deny the incarnation of Christ as God. Denying His divinity while the rest of the orhtodox doctrine chritians DO NOT constitutes a paradox... that also denies your very title as a Christian that mainly presupposes one who proclaims Christ as the God-man

Your premise is out of topic nevertheless though....also.

 

[Brennin]

As per the Holy Trinity... Calling yourself a Christian while not accepting the belief in Holy Trinity is not acceptable...

It most certainly is acceptable. Ante-Nicene Christians did not subscribe to three hupostases in one ousia and they are no less Christian for it.

 

[Philothei]

Not acceptable by the Church and not acceptable by mainstream Christianity for sure... A minority of shorts, with eyes fixed in Arian, a persisting old-timer heresy that prevailed through gnostic writings and beliefs. I do not wish to turn this thread into a HT debate either.... but I am sure you would agree to at least that
The fact that the "majority" and the councils rejected Arius and his premise has been well documented like I said no reason to debate again. Whoever is interested can only do a search under Arian contraversy and see the truth for themselves.

Christ never said he was a Son of God by participation... in the Bible. there is no biblical backing for Arian premise either.

 

[Brennin]

Not acceptable by the Church and not acceptable by mainstream Christianity for sure... A minority of shorts, with eyes fixed in Arian, a persisting old-timer heresy that prevailed through gnostic writings and beliefs. I do not wish to turn this thread into a HT debate either.... but I am sure you would agree to at least that
The fact that the "majority" and the councils rejected Arius and his premise has been well documented like I said no reason to debate again. Whoever is interested can only do a search under Arian contraversy and see the truth for themselves.

Christ never said he was a Son of God by participation... in the Bible. there is no biblical backing for Arian premise either.

If you do not want to turn this into a debate regarding the trinity then you need to stop making (incorrect) claims. Arius had zero to do with gnosticism and nowhere in the Bible is God described as three hupostases in one ousia.

 

[Philothei]

If you go back and see you brought that into this thread not me...

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

We know that both men and angels are referred to as 'God' qualitatively in scripture,

Incorrect- they are referred to as "gods" or "lords" not Lord of Lords or o ohn (add the h as in ho if you learn your Greek from a concordance (snicker)

so it should come as no surprise that Jesus is referred to as theos, although, the Father alone is ho theos and ho agennetos.

Nowhere in scripture are men or angels identified as the alpha (ahlphah) and omega, or pantokrator, but Jesus refers to Himself as such in Rev 1:8-9.
Sorry, JW talking points on John 1:1 don't cut it.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only Christians who reject the doctrine of the trinity.

Non-Trinitarian Christian is an oxymoron.
And yes, you brought it up.

 

[Photini]

Did ya notice mine

Sure have.

Thinking about turning the "show siggys" off though, because some people's are just so large and I hate having to scroll so much when I'm on my laptop (which is almost always). I don't use a mouse.

 

[Brennin]

Incorrect- they are referred to as "gods" or "lords" not Lord of Lords or o ohn (add the h as in ho if you learn your Greek from a concordance (snicker)

I learned my Greek from a scholar, which is why I obey the rough breathing marks. (It's hoi polloi not ee pollee.) Angels and men are referred to as theos, as is the case with Jesus Christ.

Nowhere in scripture are men or angels identified as the alpha (ahlphah) and omega, or pantokrator, but Jesus refers to Himself as such in Rev 1:8-9.

Angels speak and act as if they were God in the OT in terms no less striking. Trinitarian talking points don't cut it.

Sorry, JW talking points on John 1:1 don't cut it.

I don't get my talking points from JWs.

Non-Trinitarian Christian is an oxymoron.
And yes, you brought it up.

You can add that error to your stockpile.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Brennin We know that both men and angels are referred to as 'God' qualitatively in scripture,

Hey lookie here! I am a god!!!!

John 10:34 Answered to them the JESUS "Is not it is having been Written in the Law of ye that I say ' gods/qeoi <2316> ye are'? 35 If those He said gods toward whom the Word of the God became and not is able to be broken/annulled the Writing 36 whom the Father hallows and commissions into the World ye are saying that 'Thou are blaspheming' that I said 'Son of the God I am'" [Pslam 82:6]

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

I learned my Greek from a scholar, which is why I obey the rough breathing marks. (It's hoi polloi not ee pollee.) Angels and men are referred to as theos, as is the case with Jesus Christ.

The scope and context of word meanings in every language allows the unlearned and un/or unscrupulous to mislead the vulnerable and the uninitiate, as we see occuring with many schismatic and heresy-preaching sects today. Certainly the English word 'god' has no fixed or static meaning, I could say that Clapton is a god and so is YHWH, for example, and in both cases indicate 'worship,' but not worship of tthe same scope or quality. Thus, my words could be misrepresented by a translator with an agenda, ne? ochi?

Neither angels nor men are referred to as either 'alpha and omega' nor pantokrator, however, nor do they refer to themselves as such in either set of scriptures- a point you conveniently bypass.

Angels speak and act as if they were God in the OT in terms no less striking. Trinitarian talking points don't cut it.

Angels speak on behalf of God, not as God.
Perhaps you missed this instruction

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

That is a rhetorical question, to which the answer is an unqualified NONE.

I don't get my talking points from JWs.

You can add that error to your stockpile.

So sez you.

 

[katholikos]

Knowing Greek does not mean you know the author's intent. If I write a letter to a friend in German, I am still going to use idioms and slangs and culteral references particular to me and my culture, and if the recipient of my letter speaks perfect German but does not know the idioms, references and slangs of my culture, they will not grasp the meaning of what I have written regardless of how well they read German

 

[MamaZ]

Well Mary is not a mediator.. There is only one between God and man and it is not Mary tee hee.. It is Christ who forever lives to intercede for us..

 

[Brennin]

The scope and context of word meanings in every language allows the unlearned and un/or unscrupulous to mislead the vulnerable and the uninitiate, as we see occuring with many schismatic and heresy-preaching sects today. Certainly the English word 'god' has no fixed or static meaning, I could say that Clapton is a god and so is YHWH, for example, and in both cases indicate 'worship,' but not worship of tthe same scope or quality. Thus, my words could be misrepresented by a translator with an agenda, ne? ochi?

You have just convicted yourself with your words. Proskuneo is routinely misrepresented by trinitarians in just such a way.

Neither angels nor men are referred to as either 'alpha and omega' nor pantokrator, however, nor do they refer to themselves as such in either set of scriptures- a point you conveniently bypass.

I addressed your point with my link.

Angels speak on behalf of God, not as God.

Scripture demonstrates otherwise.

Perhaps you missed this instruction

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

That is a rhetorical question, to which the answer is an unqualified NONE.

Very good, but that does not argue against my point.

 

[jckstraw72]

if the Trinity is wrong then all of Christianity is a great failure.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

You have just convicted yourself with your words. Proskuneo is routinely misrepresented by trinitarians in just such a way.

So you say- prove your point.For that matter, demonstrate the relevance of proskenuo or proskenesis to this discussion.

Scripture demonstrates otherwise.

Empty claim, prove same

 

[Brennin]

if the Trinity is wrong then all of Christianity is a great failure.

No, because there is a faithful remnant.

 

[MamaZ]

Where in all of scripture is it ever stated that anyone other than Christ is the mediator between God and man?