Reigning over the flesh

LWB

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But how do you know if God's jealous of something or not? For me it has always been like when I had something which I really liked then I feared that this could be an idol and I thought that the only way to really find out wether it is an idol is giving it up because otherwise I can't know if it's an idol or not.
Even if I had something I liked I couldn't really enjoy it but felt guilty and thought about wether it's an idol and tried to find out if God might be displeased with it. It's really stupid somehow when you fear that something could be an idol because how shall you find out about it? For example if a christian tells you that if you were willing to give it up for God then it's not an idol then this doesn't solve the issue because then you basically have to give it up. Let's say you like playing guitar and you practice it and then you fear what if it's an idol and then somebody tells you if you were willing to give it up then it's not an idol then going on with it would not make sense because why go on if one day you might have to give it up? Then I'd rather want to know it right away if I have to stop or not.

Okay, I think I'm starting to understand your concern in the light of Christ's teachings as contained in Matthew 10, especially verses 37-39:

"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."

Jesus is specifically addressing his disciples in that passage, for he is about to send them out to spread the gospel. But the content is still applicable to anyone who would take up their cross and follow the Lord.

Our hypothetical guitar player might be displeasing God if he'd rather play his guitar than be taking up his cross and doing whatever that entails. How can we continue to love elements of this fleshly existence when we are told we must lose our lives to find it?

The way I understand this in my own mind is so subtle, I wonder if I can explain it. Why am I enjoying a comfortable life in a land where people aren't interested in hearing the gospel, while in deepest darkest Africa or impoverished North Korea, people are perishing in ignorance of salvation through Jesus?

If I am to love God and others, what am I doing wasting a single second on personal pleasures and hobbies? Even taking a minute to enjoy a cooling fan could be considered a grotesque act of self-indulgence.

Well, through my faith in Jesus, I believe God loves me. I'm not talking about cool love verging on indifference, but white hot passion and infatuation! I'm the apple of God's eye because I am cleaned by the blood of his precious son and been implanted into his very body.

I have a cat that I love a lot. Pretty much all she does is sleep all day and then whinge for food or attention. But that's okay, because my love for her is unconditional. I know it is unconditional because it has been tested to the limit.

Such love is but the murkiest reflection of the love that God has for me. I don't have to do anything and God still loves me. I can play my guitar all day long (if I had one) and God still loves me. There is nothing I can do to make God unlove me. He will leave the 99 to reclaim me if I go wandering away.

Because I bask in such love through faith, I understand I'm free to enjoy my life and live it to the full. All the apostles and people of faith who obeyed the great commission to spread the gospel, and all those who have died and suffered doing so; even the Lord's own death itself, was all done so that I could enjoy the blessedness of being in God's favour!

This is why I don't fret to enjoy a cool fan now and then, and why I'm not afraid to enjoy a hobby. This is why I don't suffer angst and guilt to be living in peace and security when some parts of the world are falling to pieces. If God allows much of the world to suffer trouble and strife, but has tucked me up into a safe little pocket, that's his business, not mine.

It is only upon enjoying God's unconditional love and freedom that a special kind of fruit begins to grow in one's heart. This fruit is love for God and others in return, and the seeking of ways in which to serve them. In this light service becomes an act of delight. An honour and a privilege, not done out of fear and guilt.
 
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Jim Bob

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The Holy Spirit, or maybe some wise, close friend might give us a nudge to remind us to keep something in the right perspective.
But how do you know if when you feel guilty about something it's the HS and not just obsessive worrying?

Being 'worldly' is forgetting divine principles in our usage and participation of creation, but not in avoiding proper interaction within our society.
So it's wrong when christians teach that christians must not go to a disco or to a cinema because this is what the world does?

Does that help with your questions?
Not quite. My problem is I can't imagine what's allowed and what is not allowed. I do not walk around outside looking for women to look at but my problem is that sometimes even 1 image of a half-naked model or even only a picture of a woman's face which somehow looks tempting or aggressive kinda like the women in porn usually look is enough and then I'm directly turned on or horny or whatever one calls it and I don't know if that's already a sin or not. But even if that's no sin then it still sucks because then what do I do when I see something which turns me on and then I cannot get it out of my head especially when masturbating is also forbidden then it's really a never ending torture and you better lock yourself in your room to not be tempted by something tempting but that's also not realistic cause nobody can stay in his room forever.
I really ask myself how would it have been in a world without sin. All these distinctions between lusting and desiring and wanting but not sinning are so vague and complicated.
To me it seems like married christians have a license for everything and they can have lustful fantasies about their partners all day and imagine everything they want but when you're not married then you have to function like a machine and you must control your thoughts and also deny your sexuality 100% in fact if you could get a bladder catheter then you'd never have to touch your private parts at all. I really don't know if that is healthy or if this will not drive a person insane sooner or later and then lead to religious people becoming disturbed or perverse. How's that a normal attitude towards the body? I think most non-christians would say this is extreme and while I don't care what they think I also think that it's somehow extreme but at the same time I don't know what's allowed and what's not allowed.

imagining the opposite sex purely in physical terms, not as primarily as a person
But with this definition it's only sin when you imagine somebody as an object but according to what I was told it is already a sin to have thoughts about sex with another person unless this person is married to you this means that no thoughts about sex with a person must ever enter your brain but how in the world is this supposed to be accomplished? I can't control myself in such a manner.

In itself, OJ is a beneficial thing. But I know that it will put me into a mode that I cannot control, which will take my focus off the right things later.
But OJ isn't quite the same as lusting and sex. I mean you can drink OJ as a single and not sin it's not a taboo for sex is a total taboo when you're single that is the difference.

Pr 21:17
He who loves pleasure will become a poor man; He who loves wine and oil will not become rich.
That's the stuff I'm talking about. When I read such things I feel guilty for everything which is enjoyable cause no matter what it is wether it's chocolate or something else then it's always vain pleasure and the best would be to live totally ascetic and deny yourself everything which you enjoy. I bet that many christians in the past lived this way.

I have a cat that I love a lot. Pretty much all she does is sleep all day and then whinge for food or attention. But that's okay, because my love for her is unconditional. I know it is unconditional because it has been tested to the limit.

A very beautiful cat if I might add. :)

But the bible talks about being lazy and such things or also about rewards and talents which need to be used. When I read such verses then I always feel pressured and I'm never satisfied with myself and I also don't do much to be honest. I haven't read in the bible for months and I don't miss it either because reading it always dragged me down. It was never rewarding or fulfilling to me. That's like being a guitar student who goes to his teacher week after week and never gets better. This is how I feel. I simply feel like I can't understand the bible and it also intimidates me. I totally hate sitting in front of a book like romans and wrestle with single verses and have no freaking clue what they are supposed to mean. This really hurts because I think how can I be a christian and still not understand it? An unbeliever who read it might be able to draw more from this than me and at the same time it's always like "as a christian you have fellowship with the author and this means you will understand it and he teaches us and yadda..." but I also always prayed before reading and still hardly understood anything. After a while you just get tired of this and also tired of those standard christian advice like "Oh, just pray before you read the bible" lol, as if I didnt do that. :doh:
I rather listen to teachings about certain biblical topics than to "study" the bible alone because then I don't get so frustrated.
But what it all boils down is not knowing how God really is. Many times when I feel bad I ask myself wether God's angry or disappointed and I don't know how he "ticks" I simply have no clue and from reading the bible I only get a negative picture of God because of all the scary verses in there even the NT has a lot of scary verses about the lazy servant or the wine branches which are cut off and burnt. For somebody like me who already stuggles with anxiety such things aren't healthy at all.
 
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LWB

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Jim Bob, I wonder if you've heard the story of Alexander the Great and the Gordian Knot?

There was a legendary knot so intricate that nobody could undo it. Alexander tried and failed, but then took his sword and sliced right through it. I feel like you have gotten yourself into a similar knot, and the blade you need to cut it with is LOVE.

All of Christ's teachings come down to one simple idea: love for others. The fruit that God wants to see grow in our hearts, the thing represented by talents that God wants us to invest, is love.

We do know how God really is, for God came to Earth for a time.

Picture God on his bended knees, lovingly washing the feet of his disciples. That is God.

Picture God being whipped, cursed and spat upon, and reacting with nothing but compassion and forgiveness. That is God.

Picture God surrendering his very life so that we might be healed of our sin.

God is love, and he looks upon you with the deepest compassion and concern.

Concentrate on love if reading the Bible isn't your thing. We can love God through loving others, and just enjoying peace and thankfulness in our existence. If there is something you love, ascribe your wonder to the one who created it.

Patient perseverance and trust in God's goodness and love. Take all these problems and frustrations you have, and cut them away like knotted ropes.
 
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Johnnz

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My replies are in bold

But how do you know if when you feel guilty about something it's the HS and not just obsessive worrying?

Not always easily. But, guilt goes when we confess. if guilt hangs around after confessing its most probably false guilt, not from the HS

So it's wrong when christians teach that christians must not go to a disco or to a cinema because this is what the world does?

Yes, most times.

Not quite. My problem is I can't imagine what's allowed and what is not allowed. I do not walk around outside looking for women to look at but my problem is that sometimes even 1 image of a half-naked model or even only a picture of a woman's face which somehow looks tempting or aggressive kinda like the women in porn usually look is enough and then I'm directly turned on or horny or whatever one calls it and I don't know if that's already a sin or not. But even if that's no sin then it still sucks because then what do I do when I see something which turns me on and then I cannot get it out of my head especially when masturbating is also forbidden then it's really a never ending torture and you better lock yourself in your room to not be tempted by something tempting but that's also not realistic cause nobody can stay in his room forever.
I really ask myself how would it have been in a world without sin. All these distinctions between lusting and desiring and wanting but not sinning are so vague and complicated.

Ill stick my neck out and answer pretty directly.

The opposite sex was designed to be attractive to the other. That gets us thinking about sex and marriage. Sin is when we take that natural interest and misuse it.

Sexually mature people are very interested in sex and thus are drawn easily into sexual thoughts. A pretty girl can result in a pretty rapid response from a guy. But that is not in itself wrong, that's just everything functioning properly and requiring a moral framework to contain it. That containment can be uncomfortable, but its not sinful to be sexual as a single person.


A sexual stimulus can result in a sexual (ie physiological) response. Nothing inherently wrong with that. Sin requires desire, intent and an actual commitment. An all but automatic,invluntary, maybe eveb unwanted reastion is not sin, just being a sexually matured being.

To me it seems like married christians have a license for everything and they can have lustful fantasies about their partners all day and imagine everything they want but when you're not married then you have to function like a machine and you must control your thoughts and also deny your sexuality 100% in fact if you could get a bladder catheter then you'd never have to touch your private parts at all. I really don't know if that is healthy or if this will not drive a person insane sooner or later and then lead to religious people becoming disturbed or perverse. How's that a normal attitude towards the body? I think most non-christians would say this is extreme and while I don't care what they think I also think that it's somehow extreme but at the same time I don't know what's allowed and what's not allowed.

Some Christian teaching virtually implies that terrible dilemma. Singles are implicitly to live as asexual beings. What nonsense. What we do know is that our sex drive has one of its biological peaks mid teens for most people.

But with this definition it's only sin when you imagine somebody as an object but according to what I was told it is already a sin to have thoughts about sex with another person unless this person is married to you this means that no thoughts about sex with a person must ever enter your brain but how in the world is this supposed to be accomplished? I can't control myself in such a manner.

There is a huge difference between a guy seeing a lovely woman and responding:
a) How can I get into bed with her? Wow, sex with her would be ....I would get her to do.... and
b) She is really attractive. Lucky guy who marries her. She is so perfectly shaped. Wow.

Engaged couples need to talk about sex. Any sensible person will read good material about sex, very necessary for developing sensible attitudes and values.

That's the stuff I'm talking about. When I read such things I feel guilty for everything which is enjoyable cause no matter what it is wether it's chocolate or something else then it's always vain pleasure and the best would be to live totally ascetic and deny yourself everything which you enjoy. I bet that many christians in the past lived this way.

That comes from pagan beliefs, not accurate Christian teaching
God promised Israel and land: Ex 3:8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey NIV There are many scriptures with similar content.


But the bible talks about being lazy and such things or also about rewards and talents which need to be used. When I read such verses then I always feel pressured and I'm never satisfied with myself and I also don't do much to be honest. I haven't read in the bible for months and I don't miss it either because reading it always dragged me down. It was never rewarding or fulfilling to me. That's like being a guitar student who goes to his teacher week after week and never gets better. This is how I feel. I simply feel like I can't understand the bible and it also intimidates me. I totally hate sitting in front of a book like romans and wrestle with single verses and have no freaking clue what they are supposed to mean. This really hurts because I think how can I be a christian and still not understand it? An unbeliever who read it might be able to draw more from this than me and at the same time it's always like "as a christian you have fellowship with the author and this means you will understand it and he teaches us and yadda..." but I also always prayed before reading and still hardly understood anything. After a while you just get tired of this and also tired of those standard christian advice like "Oh, just pray before you read the bible" lol, as if I didnt do that.
doh.gif

I rather listen to teachings about certain biblical topics than to "study" the bible alone because then I don't get so frustrated.
But what it all boils down is not knowing how God really is. Many times when I feel bad I ask myself wether God's angry or disappointed and I don't know how he "ticks" I simply have no clue and from reading the bible I only get a negative picture of God because of all the scary verses in there even the NT has a lot of scary verses about the lazy servant or the wine branches which are cut off and burnt. For somebody like me who already stuggles with anxiety such things aren't healthy at all.

The above comes from too much negative content in what you have been told at church. Send me a PM if you are interested in some better material that is readily available on the Internet.

John
NZ
 
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Jim Bob

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Concentrate on love if reading the Bible isn't your thing. We can love God through loving others, and just enjoying peace and thankfulness in our existence. If there is something you love, ascribe your wonder to the one who created it.

Hi, but how can you be a christian and not read in the bible? From what most christians say this isn't possible or at least you cannot grow this way. It's very frustrating for me that reading the bible doesn't bring me joy and fulfillment. It's a very personal issue when you're a christian and don't get much from the bible. If it was any other book then I could simply think what a silly book and trash it. It wouldn't affect me if I did not understand it but I cannot do that with the bible. And also stuff like that the natural man receives nothing but that everything is spiritually discerned makes me feel like something's simply wrong. Maybe I'm simply not spiritual (enough) and that's why I don't understand it? And I also don't want to depend on commentaries from other christians because who tells me they are right?
And then I can as well simply learn the entire commentary but then it wouldn't be my own insights.

And I also can picture Jesus in other scenes which scare me like Jesus warning of hell and speaking in parables which the others couldn't understand. There were times where I asked myself why did Jesus go through all this suffering and then in the end hardly anyone makes it to get saved cause he's so strict and has such high requirements. But that was after a pastor on the internet told me that if you sin and die before confessing it you go to hell and the next few days I was scared all the time and always confessing sins in my mind. :doh:

There is a huge difference between a guy seeing a lovely woman and responding:
a) How can I get into bed with her? Wow, sex with her would be ....I would get her to do.... and
b) She is really attractive. Lucky guy who marries her. She is so perfectly shaped. Wow.

Yes, I know but is it really always possible to keep your thoughts in the b) category?

What if you for example have a totally beatiful teacher and you have to see her every day and cannot really escape it and then you think thoughts like "Man, I'd like to touch her body" or something like that would that also already be a sin?
Or let's say you sit in a bus and there's a woman facing you and she wears tight clothes and you're automatically attracted to her and have a hard time not looking at her would that be a sin? I heard that as soon as you look twice it's a sin because then you're checking a person out.

And what about stuff which is simply arousing but where you do not really lust after a specific person? For example if you overheard a conversation where women talk about sex and listening to this would be arousing would that also already be a sin?
 
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Johnnz

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And then I can as well simply learn the entire commentary but then it wouldn't be my own insights.

Look at good commentaries as another form of teaching. As much as many think otherwise we just cannot accurately grasp much of Scripture ourselves.

And I also can picture Jesus in other scenes which scare me like Jesus warning of hell and speaking in parables which the others couldn't understand. There were times where I asked myself why did Jesus go through all this suffering and then in the end hardly anyone makes it to get saved cause he's so strict and has such high requirements. But that was after a pastor on the internet told me that if you sin and die before confessing it you go to hell and the next few days I was scared all the time and always confessing sins in my mind. :doh:

That pastor was very wrong. he just hasn't properly understood the NT

Yes, I know but is it really always possible to keep your thoughts in the b) category?

What if you for example have a totally beatiful teacher and you have to see her every day and cannot really escape it and then you think thoughts like "Man, I'd like to touch her body" or something like that would that also already be a sin?
Or let's say you sit in a bus and there's a woman facing you and she wears tight clothes and you're automatically attracted to her and have a hard time not looking at her would that be a sin? I heard that as soon as you look twice it's a sin because then you're checking a person out.

And what about stuff which is simply arousing but where you do not really lust after a specific person? For example if you overheard a conversation where women talk about sex and listening to this would be arousing would that also already be a sin?

Not necessarily sin at all, just stimulus-response. Most of us have a natural interest in sexual matters and at times that can trigger an involuntary response. that may become sinful, but that's not inevitable.

John
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Jim Bob

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Not necessarily sin at all, just stimulus-response. Most of us have a natural interest in sexual matters and at times that can trigger an involuntary response. that may become sinful, but that's not inevitable.

When would it become sinful? When you start imagining fantasies with sexual content?
 
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Johnnz

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When we think about something sexual that clearly transgresses biblical standards

"Wow she is really attractive" - not sin

You imagine actually having sex with her - sin

You plan to have sex with her - sin

I must not even think about sex or anything sexual - wrong.

I should never have any sexual responses outside or marriage and my spouse - wrong

John
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But thinking about sex in a general way, unless obsessive, is not wrong even though it might result in some arousal. We are thoroughly sexual beings by Divine design.
 
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Lee52

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What are the lusts of the flesh?
Gal 5:16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

I am right here with tturt on this. It was for freedom that Christ set us free from sin. Not that we are to use that freedom for things that are not good and productive for us, but we are free to do all things in Christ. (paraphrasing)

Who has come to you with the bondage message that you are listening to? Jesus is not about bondage. We are saved by grace, not by works. When we surrender ourselves completely to Christ, He begins a good work in us and enhances our faith and with the enhancement of our faith good works result. We do good works BECAUSE of the strength in faith in Jesus that we are given. We do not do good works to attain anything, but only to do good works to glorify Christ because of our joy in our salvation through Him. Good works, good living, is a result of Jesus' work in us.

Lighten up on yourself and ENJOY Jesus and all that He has done for you and is doing in you, and will accomplish with you!

Be blessed,
Lee52
 
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