Regarding Roman Catholic view on "bad popes"

[chevyontheriver]

I might agree if it were not the case that that post or one similar to it is sure to appear in any thread that includes even a hint that someone disagrees with Catholic history, belief, or practice. And as Dave G. correctly noted, it doesn't take anything close to actual "bashing" to prompt that complaint.

It's been my experience that there are people who love to bash Catholics. It is quite fair to assume that Catholic bashing will commence in 'Denomination Specific Theology' within two days of a new Catholic related thread no matter what. It gets really really old. And if you don't want Catholic participation outside of OBOB, that's is how you achieve that goal.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Anyway, i aint sticking around.

God bless you all

Ditto.

 

[Albion]

You know very well how these threads turn out my friend.

Anyway, i aint sticking around.

Why don't we all just resolve not to make such accusations? If someone says something that is untrue, it can be countered...with better facts.

 

[Athanasius377]

Roman Catholics are pretty straight forward about the history of the papacy. In fact some of the fiercest critics of the pope has come within the Roman Church. Part of the corruption was that the papacy was (and still is to a far smaller degree) a political office. Recall the Papal States covered a vast swath in the middle of the Italian peninsula up until 1870. I suppose that it’s noteworthy that although these men on a personal level were creatans the never tinkered with the doctrine of the church.

In other words if I’m going to bash Rome it won’t because of a few of her popes. In fact there a several we hold in high regard. Our issue is and has always been theological. So don’t let this bother you. If the LCMS was around long enough to have 260+ presidents I’m am more than sure we’d have some real rotten ones too.

 

[Resha Caner]

Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony.

Well, this is one of those odd things that Tocqueville labored over.

The Medici popes definitely abused the office of the Bishop of Rome. And yet, because of that abuse, we have Michelangelo's paintings in the Sistine Chapel, something that probably never would have happened otherwise. Michelangelo would have ended up behind the counter selling paint at Sherwin-Williams instead. In our "freer" Western democracy, we instead get things like bananas duct-taped to a white board.

Sigh. Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.

 

[lsume]

Hello,
I came across a wikipedia article about a book entitled "The Bad Popes" by someone named Chamberlain. I'm sure it's a huge derogatory slamfest on Catholics, which I don't support and I would never read. However, the following information is presented in the wikipedia article regarding specific popes below. Are the facts below from Wikipedia disputed or accepted?

Respectfully (as possible regarding this subject)
-J

• Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]:19
• Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
• Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy.
• Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured .[1]:153
• Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism
  
• Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony.[1]:218
• Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

Regardless of whether your a Catholic or not, you must know that some of the popes were less than Christ Like. At some point your going to read your Bible and if your honest with yourself your going to have questions. I suggest that you pray for The Truth. I believe that is what Christ wants for us. However The Bible indicates that men who don’t love The Truth are destined for darkness.

 

[TheLostCoin]

As someone born and raised Catholic, my understanding has been that the Popes exist solely to be in charge of the Church's government and to defend the dogma of Faith. The whole idea of Roman Catholicism is that the Faith of the Apostles has been handed down from Saint Peter to now perfectly and non-contradictorily, with the Pope acting as the guardian of that Faith. In that role of protecting the Faith, they cannot be judged (as in, being deposed from the Papal office or judged a heretic).

That doesn't mean, though, that the Popes will be good people or will always be role-models. To me, that seems monstrous (because it necessarily implies that objective morality doesn't exist and changes based on who is in charge), and is flatly contradicted by Saint Paul rebuking Saint Peter to his face for being a Judaizing hypocrite.

It can seem like Catholics view the Papacy like that, but I think that either stems from a huge ignorance of history or it's because of alterior motives (where we are allowed to bash the conservative Pope Benedict XVI all we want, but suddenly with the liberal Pope Francis, you are a schismatic if you don't think all of his actions are inspired by God).

 

[Euodius]

It's actually an OK book sticking pretty much to the facts. I've read it. I own a copy of it. I go back to it from time to time.

There have been bad popes. It's just a fact. Dante considered there would be some popes in hell, and probably so.

Just got the book from the thriftstore yesterday. The review on the back of the book says, "Are all popes actually Catholic - actually, some were Jewish."

^ I found that to be pretty funny, but certainly not PC.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

Well, this is one of those odd things that Tocqueville labored over.

The Medici popes definitely abused the office of the Bishop of Rome. And yet, because of that abuse, we have Michelangelo's paintings in the Sistine Chapel, something that probably never would have happened otherwise. Michelangelo would have ended up behind the counter selling paint at Sherwin-Williams instead. In our "freer" Western democracy, we instead get things like bananas duct-taped to a white board.

Sigh. Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.

Sherwin Williams LOL IM DYING hahahaha

 

[GaveMeJoy]

I tried to delete this thread Early on out of fear of trolling but couldn’t find a delete button. I’m fantastically glad I didn’t, thanks friends

 

[PaulCyp1]

Yes, a few of the 266 Popes who have lived since Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church have led shameful, sinful lives, just like a few kings, a few presidents, a few of any large group of men you can name. However, the remarkable thing is that even the worst Popes who ever lived never taught anything false. God will not allow it. He promised the first Pope, Peter, and through Him all Popes, "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me".

 

[prodromos]

However, the remarkable thing is that even the worst Popes who ever lived never taught anything false

Those of us who have studied church history know that this is not true

 

[TheLostCoin]

Those of us who have studied church history know that this is not true

Even post-schism. See Pope John XXII.

 

[Albion]

Yes, a few of the 266 Popes who have lived since Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church have led shameful, sinful lives, just like a few kings, a few presidents, a few of any large group of men you can name. However, the remarkable thing is that even the worst Popes who ever lived never taught anything false. God will not allow it.

Since some of them disagreed on matters of belief that ultimately became dogmas of the church, I don't know that you can go that far. Better just to say that the personal sanctity -- or lack of it -- of any Pope does not determine the validity of the Papacy.

 

[lsume]

Yes, a few of the 266 Popes who have lived since Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church have led shameful, sinful lives, just like a few kings, a few presidents, a few of any large group of men you can name. However, the remarkable thing is that even the worst Popes who ever lived never taught anything false. God will not allow it. He promised the first Pope, Peter, and through Him all Popes, "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me".

I think Martin Luther had a different point of view.

 

[Dave G.]

I think Martin Luther had a different point of view.

Catholics don't care what Martin Luther thought, to them he was just another apostate running from church rule. A totally lost irritation and heretic.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

I don't think it is exactly news that there have been completely corrupt popes, nor that Catholics and Protestants may have more in common than they do different.

 

[frederick943]

Hello,
I came across a wikipedia article about a book entitled "The Bad Popes" by someone named Chamberlain. I'm sure it's a huge derogatory slamfest on Catholics, which I don't support and I would never read. However, the following information is presented in the wikipedia article regarding specific popes below. Are the facts below from Wikipedia disputed or accepted?

Respectfully (as possible regarding this subject)
-J

• Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]:19
• Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
• Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy.
• Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured .[1]:153
• Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism
  
• Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony.[1]:218
• Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

Hello,
I came across a wikipedia article about a book entitled "The Bad Popes" by someone named Chamberlain. I'm sure it's a huge derogatory slamfest on Catholics, which I don't support and I would never read. However, the following information is presented in the wikipedia article regarding specific popes below. Are the facts below from Wikipedia disputed or accepted?

Respectfully (as possible regarding this subject)
-J

• Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]:19
• Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
• Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy.
• Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured .[1]:153
• Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism
  
• Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony.[1]:218
• Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

 

[frederick943]

I have read the book by E R Chamberlin, as well as many other books on church history. The popes were generally a very bad lot. Simony, lust for temporal power, forgeries, and gross misuse of the spiritual weapon of excommunication led to all manner of problems. All the popes listed were very bad, and I would add Boniface VIII to the list. He's the one who Dante placed in the inner circle of hell. Gregory VII had a whole school of forgers. He declared himself a saint.
For a long time, the papacy was the domain of certain families (Colonnas, Contis, Orsinis etc.) who craved power above all. Another good book is "Vicars of Christ" by Peter De Rosa. He mentions the above characters as well as some of the more modern popes.
A more modern work about the popes and their minions is "In The Closet of the Vatican" by Frederic Martel.

 

[prodromos]

He declared himself a saint.

Unfortunately this one statement calls into question the rest of your source material.