Regarding Regeneration, Total Depravity and the Good News

[twin1954]

One is what he is according to how he sets his own mind not according to how he was passively born.




There is nothing in the context of Acts 2 or Acts 7 that says the people being preached to were totally depraved and/or had the inability to listen and understand what was being preached while still in their lost state. Total depravity/inability would have to be added/assumed into those contexts.

In Acts 7, they did not murder Stephen because they did not understand a word he said, but they "heard"- (comprehend- perceive) Acts 7:54 and were cut to the heart for they did not like what Stephen was saying about them..."Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Resisting the Holy Ghost was a willful, conscience choice and not a passive state they were born into against their will causing them to resist the Holy Ghost.

AS is usual with those who despise the truth of God you base your whole argument on a false assumption. Total depravity or total inability in no way does away with the will. Nor does it relieve man of the responsibility for his sin. Man sins and defies God because he wants to not because he is unable to do otherwise. The fact that he is unable to do otherwise is the whole purpose of preaching the Gospel. We preach Christ crucified because man cannot and will not turn from his evil ways. We preach with the full assurance that God the Spirit will work to either harden men or give them life and faith in Christ. The success of the Gospel doesn't depend on our ability to convince men to do what he neither will do nor can do. One fact is sure: if you can convince a man into faith someone else can convince him out of it.

So it is not only a common sense fact that a man must be born again before he can even see the kingdom of God so he must be given life to believe but that apart from being given life and faith he will not come to Christ that he might have life.

The natural man is sin he doesn't just commit sin. Sin is what we are by nature therefore we sin because we are sinners. We are not sinners because we sin.

I will leave you to look up the easily findable Scripyure references that I sprinkled my post with. If you don't already know them then your knowledge of Scripture is sorely lacking.

 

[TheSeabass]

AS is usual with those who despise the truth of God you base your whole argument on a false assumption. Total depravity or total inability in no way does away with the will. Nor does it relieve man of the responsibility for his sin.

So man will be held accountable for how he was passively born against his will?

No, for man is not born with a totally depraved sinful nature as can be seen from Acts 2 and Acts 7.

Man sins and defies God because he wants to not because he is unable to do otherwise.

Man is capable of choosing both good or bad. He is not locked in to only being able to doing bad by his birth.

Genesis 4:7 Cain had the ability to choose to do good or bad and was not locked into a totally depraved nature where he could only do bad.

The fact that he is unable to do otherwise is the whole purpose of preaching the Gospel. We preach Christ crucified because man cannot and will not turn from his evil ways. We preach with the full assurance that God the Spirit will work to either harden men or give them life and faith in Christ. The success of the Gospel doesn't depend on our ability to convince men to do what he neither will do nor can do. One fact is sure: if you can convince a man into faith someone else can convince him out of it.

So it is not only a common sense fact that a man must be born again before he can even see the kingdom of God so he must be given life to believe but that apart from being given life and faith he will not come to Christ that he might have life.

The natural man is sin he doesn't just commit sin. Sin is what we are by nature therefore we sin because we are sinners. We are not sinners because we sin.

I will leave you to look up the easily findable Scripyure references that I sprinkled my post with. If you don't already know them then your knowledge of Scripture is sorely lacking.

I have not yet seen anyone post a single verse that says man is born with a totally depraved nature.

What I have seen is verses as Romans 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." and then people ASSUME this teaches total depravity when Paul says NOTHING at all about man's birth but speaks to what men BECOME.

Paul does NOT say "they are BORN out of the way" or "they are BORN unprofitable" but says what men BECOME by choice not how they are at birth.

 

[TheSeabass]

That is not what King David said.

What Paul speaks about in Romans.

If you refer to Psalms 51:5 then look at an accurate word for wrod translation for the NIV butchers the underlying Hebrew putting words into David's mouth he never said.

A good definition for "Total Depravity" has already been given. Why you overlooked it I don't know.

I will say this, however people often hear total depravity and associate it with the words utter and/or complete. Thinking that it means we say are as evil as they can be. A prime example would be Adolph Hitler.

"So the idea of total in total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. The fallenness that captures and grips our human nature affects our bodies; that’s why we become ill and die."

Source

Now if I may, you also mentioned "inability". What we mean by that man of his own accord, could not come to God.

A man (or woman) can not just one day stop all sin, or even stop sinning and say, "I think I'm going to come to God."

No, scripture agrees on this also:

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." -Jer. 13:23 (KJV)

Jer 13:23 says NOTHING about how they were born but that they were accustomed to doing evil

Evil is what they did - not how they were passively born.

Secondly, Jer 13:23 is being directly specifically at Israel (verses 10-12) at a time when they were in iniquity and rebelling against God and therefore cannot accurately be universally applied to all man as Isaiah 64:6 is about Israel when they were in iniquity and cannot be universally applied to all men. There is no sold reason that these verses can be applies to all men no more than the verse that commands a ark to be built can be applied to all men universally.

Thirdly, no only can this verse NOT be applies to all men universally it cannot mean that it is impossible for a unsaved person to do good as in Acts 10 Cornelius was lost but able to do good Acts 10:1-2; 22.
The context shows that Israel had fallen so far into sin and were unwilling to repent of their sins. As long as they remained unwilling to repent then they would be as a leopard unable to change his spots. Hence there condition was one of choice NOT how they were passively born against their will.

It is 'suspicious' that Calvinists want to give verses as Jer 13:23 and Isa 64:6 UNIVERSAL application where there is no reasonable biblical basis but try to put limit atonement in verses as John 3:16 which is universal in application.

Where is the work of the Holy Spirit? We have a clear outline of what that is given to us in scripture by Jesus Christ.


"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:" -John 16:8 (KJV)

The word "reprove" above also means "to convict". Its the job of the Holy Spirit to "convict" man of his sins.

The Holy Spirit convicts men through His word and not in some supernatural mystical way apart from His word. Those in Acts 2 were pricked in their hearts by the Spirit inspired WORDS spoken by Peter.

You mentioned Stephen from Acts and the actions of the crowd.

Show me, if you can, the work of the Holy Spirit in convicting the crowd of their sins.

How many times have you had to listen to a song before you actually heard what the song said?

Same thing here, how many times does a sinner go to church and "listen" to what is being preached before they actually "hear" what is being preached?

Without the work of the Holy Spirit, the crowd was not able, or had the ability to move towards God.

God is the one who draws. Man don't draw God to him.

Facts are, the Holy Spirit was not working on this crowd, and God was not drawing them.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Again in Acts 2 they were convicted by the word preached to them as all other examples in the book of Acts where the word was preached/taught and men heard and believed. No one convicted apart from the word, unconditionally in a supernatural way. So the Holy Spirit works in men's heart through His word and those that hear can believe and be saved or choose to disbelieve and remain lost.

The HS does not unconditionally randomly select certain men to "regenerate" them so they can then be able to hear and believe for the HS is not a respecter of persons. Those in Acts 7 (or Acts 2) did not first have to be supernaturally be "regenerated" before they could understand God's word being preached to them.

 

[twin1954]

So man will be held accountable for how he was passively born against his will?

No, for man is not born with a totally depraved sinful nature as can be seen from Acts 2 and Acts 7.



Man is capable of choosing both good or bad. He is not locked in to only being able to doing bad by his birth.

Genesis 4:7 Cain had the ability to choose to do good or bad and was not locked into a totally depraved nature where he could only do bad.



I have not yet seen anyone post a single verse that says man is born with a totally depraved nature.

What I have seen is verses as Romans 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." and then people ASSUME this teaches total depravity when Paul says NOTHING at all about man's birth but speaks to what men BECOME.

Paul does NOT say "they are BORN out of the way" or "they are BORN unprofitable" but says what men BECOME by choice not how they are at birth.

So I take it that you deny original sin and the headship of Adam.

I also wonder how many passages it would take for you to bow to the Scriptures.

 

[DeaconDean]

What Paul speaks about in Romans.

If you refer to Psalms 51:5 then look at an accurate word for wrod translation for the NIV butchers the underlying Hebrew putting words into David's mouth he never said.

In the first place, I never quote from or use the NIV. Lets get that straight right off the bat!

Actually, the Hebrew word for "iniquity" (KJV) translates out in the Hebrew as "depraved".

"avon" Strongs 5771:

"Definition

1. perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity
   1. iniquity
   2. guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition)
   3. consequence of or punishment for iniquity"

Source

"ז הֵן-בְּעָווֹן חוֹלָלְתִּי; וּבְחֵטְא, יֶחֱמַתְנִי אִמִּי."

So properly translated, "Behold, in depravity I was travailed, and in sin she conceived me."

Source

So the rest of your argument is defeated.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

The Holy Spirit convicts men through His word and not in some supernatural mystical way apart from His word. (<- emphasis here mine)Those in Acts 2 were pricked in their hearts by the Spirit inspired WORDS spoken by Peter.


Again in Acts 2 they were convicted by the word preached to them as all other examples in the book of Acts where the word was preached/taught and men heard and believed. No one convicted apart from the word, unconditionally in a supernatural way. So the Holy Spirit works in men's heart through His word and those that hear can believe and be saved or choose to disbelieve and remain lost.

The HS does not unconditionally randomly select certain men to "regenerate" them so they can then be able to hear and believe for the HS is not a respecter of persons. Those in Acts 7 (or Acts 2) did not first have to be supernaturally be "regenerated" before they could understand God's word being preached to them.

Lets talk about this.

Since you used a little "w", we must assume your meaning is in reference to "the written word' i.e.: scripture.

You said: "not in some supernatural mystical way apart from His word".

I submit that you need to read and study your bible more.

From Charles Hodge's work "Systematic Theology, Volume 1, Theology Proper, Chapter VIII, Section II, The Holy Spirit, Sub-section B, The Spirits Office in the Work of Redemption, pp. 530-533", we read:

"With regard to the office of the Spirit in the work of redemption, the Scriptures teach, —

1. That He fashioned the body, and endued the human soul of Christ with every qualification for his work. To the Virgin Mary it was said, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee, shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke i. 35.) The prophet Isaiah predicted that the Messiah should be replenished with all spiritual gifts. “Behold my servant whom I uphold; mine elect in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.” (Is. xlii. 1.) “There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots: and the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.” (Is. xi. 1, 2.) When our Lord appeared on earth, it is said that the Spirit without measure was given unto Him. (John iii. 34.) “And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.” (John i. 32.) He was, therefore, said to have been full of the Holy Ghost.

2. That the Spirit is the revealer of all divine truth. The doctrines of the Bible are called the things of the Spirit. With regard to the writers of the Old Testament, it is said they spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. The language of Micah is applicable to all the prophets, “Truly I am full of power by the Spirit of the Lord, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression and to Israel his sin.” (Micah iii. 8.) What David said, the Holy Ghost is declared to have said. The New Testament writers were in like manner the organs of the Spirit. The doctrines which Paul preached he did not receive from men “but God,” he says, “hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit.” (1 Cor. ii. 10.) The Spirit also guided the utterance of those truths; for he adds, “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; communicating the things of the Spirit in the words of the Spirit” (πνευματικοῖς πνευματικὰ συγκρίνοντες). The whole Bible, therefore, is to be referred to the Spirit as its author.

3. The Spirit not only thus reveals divine truth, having guided infallibly holy men of old in recording it, but He everywhere attends it by his power. All truth is enforced on the heart and conscience with more or less power by the Holy Spirit, wherever that truth is known. To this all-pervading influence we are indebted for all there is of morality and order in the world. But besides this general influence, which is usually called common grace, the Spirit specially illuminates the minds of the children of God, that they may knew the things freely given (or revealed to them) by God. The natural man does not receive them, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. All believers are therefore called (πνευματικοί) spiritual, because thus enlightened and guided by the Spirit.

4. It is the special office of the Spirit to convince the world of sin; to reveal Christ, to regenerate the soul, to lead men to the exercise of faith and repentance; to dwell in those whom He thus renews, as a principle of a new and divine life. By this indwelling of the Spirit, believers are united to Christ, and to one another, so that they form one body. This is the foundation of the communion of saints, making them one in faith, one in love, one in their inward life, and one in their hopes and final destiny.

5. The Spirit also calls men to office in the Church, and endows them with the qualifications necessary for the successful discharge of its duties. The office of the Church, in this matter, is simply to ascertain and authenticate the call of the Spirit. Thus the Holy Ghost is the immediate author of all truth, of all holiness, of all consolation, of all authority, and of all efficiency in the children of God individually, and in the Church collectively."

Source

If it is like you say: "not in some supernatural mystical way apart from His word", how do you explain so many of the OT writers?

"The Spirit the Source of all Intellectual Life.

The Spirit is also represented as the source of all intellectual life. When man was created it is said God “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became (נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה) a living soul.” (Gen. ii. 7.) Job xxxii. 8, says, The inspiration of the Almighty giveth men understanding, i.e., a rational nature, for it is explained by saying, He “teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth, and maketh us wiser than the fowls of heaven.” (Job xxxv. 11.) The Scriptures ascribe in like manner to Him all special or extraordinary gifts. Thus it is said of Bezaleel, “I have called” him, “and I have filed him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, to devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass.” (Ex. xxxi. 2, 3, 4.) By his Spirit God gave Moses the wisdom requisite for his high duties, and when he was commanded to devolve part of his burden upon the seventy elders, it was said, “I will take of the Spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them.” (Num. xi. 17.) Joshua was appointed to succeed Moses, because in him was the Spirit. (Num. xxvii. 18.) In like manner the Judges, who from time to time were raised up, as emergency demanded, were qualified by the Spirit for their peculiar work, whether as rulers or as warriors. Of Othniel it is said, “The Spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he judged Israel and went out to war.” (Judges iii. 10.) So the Spirit of the Lord is said to have come upon Gideon and on Jephthah and on Samson. When Saul offended God, the Spirit of the Lord is said to have departed from him. (1 Sam. xvi. 14.) When Samuel anointed David, “The Spirit of the Lord came upon” him “from that day forward.” (1 Sam. xvi. 13.) In like manner under the new dispensation the Spirit as represented as not only the author of miraculous gifts, but also as the giver of the qualifications to teach and rule in the Church. All these operations are independent of the sanctifying influences of the Spirit. When the Spirit came on Samson or upon Saul, it was not to render them holy, but to endue them with extraordinary physical and intellectual power; and when He is said to have departed from them, it means that those extraordinary endowments were withdrawn."

Ibid

To take it even further, we read:

"THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE SANCTIFIER AND COMFORTER OF GOD'S PEOPLE.[1]

The Holy Spirit is the author of holiness in all those who are saved: "Through sanctification of the Spirit."[2] "Ye are washed, ye are sanctified by the Spirit of our God."[3] He is the author of the new or spiritual life which is produced in regeneration.[4] Not only the beginning of the new life, but its whole progress, is dependent on the Spirit: wherefore, believers are said to live in the Spirit,[5] to walk in the Spirit, to be led by the Spirit,[6] and be filled with the Spirit;[7] and, for this reason David prayed, "Take not thy Holy Spirit from me."[8] As it is his office to change the soul, and from a state of death in trespasses and sins, bring it into a new life, so it is his office to change our vile body, and fashion it like the glorious body of Christ: "He that raised up Jesus from the dead, shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."[9] As both body and spirit are redeemed by Christ, so both body and spirit are changed by the Holy spirit, and fitted for the presence and enjoyment of God.

The Holy Spirit is the Comforter of God's people. By his teaching, the knowledge of salvation by the remission of sins is obtained. The Saviour promised: "He shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you."[10] In fulfilment of this promise, the Spirit makes known the sufficiency and suitableness of Christ as Saviour, and the efficacy of his blood to cleanse from sin. By the Holy Spirit the promises of the divine word are applied to the heart. Hence, peace and joy are called the fruit of the Spirit.[11] These spiritual enjoyments, which are a foretaste of heaven, are called "the earnest of the Spirit."[12] And, as the earnest is given by him, we have reason to conclude that the full possession will be given by him. As Christ will be the medium through which the felicity of the future world will be bestowed; so, the Holy Spirit will be the immediate agent in bestowing it. The first comfort here below, and the full bliss and glory of heaven, are alike his work.


[1] Ps. li. 10-12; Ezek. xxxvi. 27; John xiv. 26; Acts ix. 31; Rom. v. 5; viii. 13, 16, 26; 1 Cor. vi. 11; 2 Cor. i. 22; iii. 18; Gal. v. 22; 2 Thes. ii. 13.

[2] 1 Pet. i. 2.

[3] 1 Cor. vi. 11.

[4] John iii. 6.

[5]Gal. v. 25.

[6] Gal. v. 18.

[7] Eph. v. 18.

[8] Ps. li. 11.

[9] Rom. viii. 11.

[10] John xvi. 15.

[11] Gal. v. 22.

[12] Eph i. 13, 14; 2 Cor. i. 22.

John L. Dagg, Manual of Theology, Book Sixth, Doctrine Concerning the Holy Spirit, Chapter III, Office of the Holy Spirit

Source

While the word was in the process of being written, we see the Holy Spirit working apart from that written word. Especially in the Old Testament.

But...there was one major difference between the operation of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit was not given to permanently indwell like in the New.

So again, your argument falls apart.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[TheSeabass]

So I take it that you deny original sin and the headship of Adam.

I also wonder how many passages it would take for you to bow to the Scriptures.

Original sin is an invention of man beginning with men, particularly Augustine, and made more popular by men as Calvin. It has no origins with Christ or His apostles.

John said "... sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4. Since there is no such things as a sin gene, since sin cannot be passed between people like a virus or disease and since sin is not just an idea that is passed from one person to another, then John's statement makes the idea of original sin biblically impossible for no one is born having transgressed God's law ie, no one is born with sin.

 

[TheSeabass]

In the first place, I never quote from or use the NIV. Lets get that straight right off the bat!

I posted "If you refer to Psalms 51:5 then look at an accurate word for word translation for the NIV butchers the underlying Hebrew putting words into David's mouth he never said."

I said "IF" you use the NIV. An accurate word for word translation of the bible does not teach original sin therefore men create perversions of the bible to try and force the idea on people.

Actually, the Hebrew word for "iniquity" (KJV) translates out in the Hebrew as "depraved".

"avon" Strongs 5771:

"Definition

1. perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity
   1. iniquity
   2. guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition)
   3. consequence of or punishment for iniquity"

Source

"ז הֵן-בְּעָווֹן חוֹלָלְתִּי; וּבְחֵטְא, יֶחֱמַתְנִי אִמִּי."

So properly translated, "Behold, in depravity I was travailed, and in sin she conceived me."

Source

So the rest of your argument is defeated.

God Bless

Till all are one.

In the first place, I never quote from or use the NIV. Lets get that straight right off the bat!

Actually, the Hebrew word for "iniquity" (KJV) translates out in the Hebrew as "depraved".

"avon" Strongs 5771:

"Definition

1. perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity
   1. iniquity
   2. guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition)
   3. consequence of or punishment for iniquity"

Source

"ז הֵן-בְּעָווֹן חוֹלָלְתִּי; וּבְחֵטְא, יֶחֱמַתְנִי אִמִּי."

So properly translated, "Behold, in depravity I was travailed, and in sin she conceived me."

Source

So the rest of your argument is defeated.

God Bless

Till all are one.

No verse teaches man is BORN in iniquity-depravity. I am familiar with the verses that says man has iniquity and deceit in his heart as Jeremiah 17:9. It is also fine if you want to use the word "depraved" to describe man. Yet no verse says man is born with iniquity/deceit/depravity in his heart, but what man's heart becomes.

I used an online bible and did a search on the word "iniquity". According to the search "iniquity" is found 278 times in the KJV. I quickly scanned through those verses and I did not find a single one that says man is born with iniquity. I found verses where men are said to have iniquity in their heart but NOT ONE verse says they were born with iniquity in their heart. Iniquity was not in their heart until they transgressed God's law.

 

[TheSeabass]

Lets talk about this.

Since you used a little "w", we must assume your meaning is in reference to "the written word' i.e.: scripture.

That would be a safe assumption for the word, the Bible is the only book I know of inspired by the Holy Spirit that man has today.

You said: "not in some supernatural mystical way apart from His word".

I submit that you need to read and study your bible more.

From Charles Hodge's work "Systematic Theology, Volume 1, Theology Proper, Chapter VIII, Section II, The Holy Spirit, Sub-section B, The Spirits Office in the Work of Redemption, pp. 530-533", we read:

"With regard to the office of the Spirit in the work of redemption, the Scriptures teach, —

1. That He fashioned the body, and endued the human soul of Christ with every qualification for his work. To the Virgin Mary it was said, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee, shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke i. 35.) The prophet Isaiah predicted that the Messiah should be replenished with all spiritual gifts. “Behold my servant whom I uphold; mine elect in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.” (Is. xlii. 1.) “There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots: and the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.” (Is. xi. 1, 2.) When our Lord appeared on earth, it is said that the Spirit without measure was given unto Him. (John iii. 34.) “And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.” (John i. 32.) He was, therefore, said to have been full of the Holy Ghost.

2. That the Spirit is the revealer of all divine truth. The doctrines of the Bible are called the things of the Spirit. With regard to the writers of the Old Testament, it is said they spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. The language of Micah is applicable to all the prophets, “Truly I am full of power by the Spirit of the Lord, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression and to Israel his sin.” (Micah iii. 8.) What David said, the Holy Ghost is declared to have said. The New Testament writers were in like manner the organs of the Spirit. The doctrines which Paul preached he did not receive from men “but God,” he says, “hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit.” (1 Cor. ii. 10.) The Spirit also guided the utterance of those truths; for he adds, “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; communicating the things of the Spirit in the words of the Spirit” (πνευματικοῖς πνευματικὰ συγκρίνοντες). The whole Bible, therefore, is to be referred to the Spirit as its author.

3. The Spirit not only thus reveals divine truth, having guided infallibly holy men of old in recording it, but He everywhere attends it by his power. All truth is enforced on the heart and conscience with more or less power by the Holy Spirit, wherever that truth is known. To this all-pervading influence we are indebted for all there is of morality and order in the world. But besides this general influence, which is usually called common grace, the Spirit specially illuminates the minds of the children of God, that they may knew the things freely given (or revealed to them) by God. The natural man does not receive them, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. All believers are therefore called (πνευματικοί) spiritual, because thus enlightened and guided by the Spirit.

4. It is the special office of the Spirit to convince the world of sin; to reveal Christ, to regenerate the soul, to lead men to the exercise of faith and repentance; to dwell in those whom He thus renews, as a principle of a new and divine life. By this indwelling of the Spirit, believers are united to Christ, and to one another, so that they form one body. This is the foundation of the communion of saints, making them one in faith, one in love, one in their inward life, and one in their hopes and final destiny.

5. The Spirit also calls men to office in the Church, and endows them with the qualifications necessary for the successful discharge of its duties. The office of the Church, in this matter, is simply to ascertain and authenticate the call of the Spirit. Thus the Holy Ghost is the immediate author of all truth, of all holiness, of all consolation, of all authority, and of all efficiency in the children of God individually, and in the Church collectively."

Source

If it is like you say: "not in some supernatural mystical way apart from His word", how do you explain so many of the OT writers?

"The Spirit the Source of all Intellectual Life.

The Spirit is also represented as the source of all intellectual life. When man was created it is said God “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became (נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה) a living soul.” (Gen. ii. 7.) Job xxxii. 8, says, The inspiration of the Almighty giveth men understanding, i.e., a rational nature, for it is explained by saying, He “teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth, and maketh us wiser than the fowls of heaven.” (Job xxxv. 11.) The Scriptures ascribe in like manner to Him all special or extraordinary gifts. Thus it is said of Bezaleel, “I have called” him, “and I have filed him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, to devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass.” (Ex. xxxi. 2, 3, 4.) By his Spirit God gave Moses the wisdom requisite for his high duties, and when he was commanded to devolve part of his burden upon the seventy elders, it was said, “I will take of the Spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them.” (Num. xi. 17.) Joshua was appointed to succeed Moses, because in him was the Spirit. (Num. xxvii. 18.) In like manner the Judges, who from time to time were raised up, as emergency demanded, were qualified by the Spirit for their peculiar work, whether as rulers or as warriors. Of Othniel it is said, “The Spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he judged Israel and went out to war.” (Judges iii. 10.) So the Spirit of the Lord is said to have come upon Gideon and on Jephthah and on Samson. When Saul offended God, the Spirit of the Lord is said to have departed from him. (1 Sam. xvi. 14.) When Samuel anointed David, “The Spirit of the Lord came upon” him “from that day forward.” (1 Sam. xvi. 13.) In like manner under the new dispensation the Spirit as represented as not only the author of miraculous gifts, but also as the giver of the qualifications to teach and rule in the Church. All these operations are independent of the sanctifying influences of the Spirit. When the Spirit came on Samson or upon Saul, it was not to render them holy, but to endue them with extraordinary physical and intellectual power; and when He is said to have departed from them, it means that those extraordinary endowments were withdrawn."

Ibid

To take it even further, we read:

"THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE SANCTIFIER AND COMFORTER OF GOD'S PEOPLE.[1]

The Holy Spirit is the author of holiness in all those who are saved: "Through sanctification of the Spirit."[2] "Ye are washed, ye are sanctified by the Spirit of our God."[3] He is the author of the new or spiritual life which is produced in regeneration.[4] Not only the beginning of the new life, but its whole progress, is dependent on the Spirit: wherefore, believers are said to live in the Spirit,[5] to walk in the Spirit, to be led by the Spirit,[6] and be filled with the Spirit;[7] and, for this reason David prayed, "Take not thy Holy Spirit from me."[8] As it is his office to change the soul, and from a state of death in trespasses and sins, bring it into a new life, so it is his office to change our vile body, and fashion it like the glorious body of Christ: "He that raised up Jesus from the dead, shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."[9] As both body and spirit are redeemed by Christ, so both body and spirit are changed by the Holy spirit, and fitted for the presence and enjoyment of God.

The Holy Spirit is the Comforter of God's people. By his teaching, the knowledge of salvation by the remission of sins is obtained. The Saviour promised: "He shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you."[10] In fulfilment of this promise, the Spirit makes known the sufficiency and suitableness of Christ as Saviour, and the efficacy of his blood to cleanse from sin. By the Holy Spirit the promises of the divine word are applied to the heart. Hence, peace and joy are called the fruit of the Spirit.[11] These spiritual enjoyments, which are a foretaste of heaven, are called "the earnest of the Spirit."[12] And, as the earnest is given by him, we have reason to conclude that the full possession will be given by him. As Christ will be the medium through which the felicity of the future world will be bestowed; so, the Holy Spirit will be the immediate agent in bestowing it. The first comfort here below, and the full bliss and glory of heaven, are alike his work.


[1] Ps. li. 10-12; Ezek. xxxvi. 27; John xiv. 26; Acts ix. 31; Rom. v. 5; viii. 13, 16, 26; 1 Cor. vi. 11; 2 Cor. i. 22; iii. 18; Gal. v. 22; 2 Thes. ii. 13.

[2] 1 Pet. i. 2.

[3] 1 Cor. vi. 11.

[4] John iii. 6.

[5]Gal. v. 25.

[6] Gal. v. 18.

[7] Eph. v. 18.

[8] Ps. li. 11.

[9] Rom. viii. 11.

[10] John xvi. 15.

[11] Gal. v. 22.

[12] Eph i. 13, 14; 2 Cor. i. 22.

John L. Dagg, Manual of Theology, Book Sixth, Doctrine Concerning the Holy Spirit, Chapter III, Office of the Holy Spirit

Source

While the word was in the process of being written, we see the Holy Spirit working apart from that written word. Especially in the Old Testament.

But...there was one major difference between the operation of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit was not given to permanently indwell like in the New.

So again, your argument falls apart.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I find it very interesting, humorous, curious that you tell me that I "need to read and study your bible more" but then you post a long quote, NOT FROM THE INSPIRED WORD of the Holy Spirit but by an uninspired false teacher.


Let's look at the Holy Spirit's Bible, take a walk through the book of Acts.

Acts 2, Peter preaches the first recorded gospel sermon, preached words inspired by the Holy Spirit and the lost people understood and obeyed v38 to be saved. No mention at all of the Calvinistic idea of "regeneration" by the HS first.


Acts 3:12ff again Peter preaches words inspired by the Holy Spirit and people understood and believed, Acts 4:4---again, no Calvinistic 'regeneration' here either where they first had to be regenerated by the HS.

Acts 8:12-13, the Samaritans, Simon and the eunuch all had the word spoken to them, they understood and believed. Again, no Calvinistic regeneration found here at all. In Acts 8:29 why would the Spirit send Phillip to the eunuch to teach him? Why did not the SPirit just supernaturally regenerate and illuminate the understanding of the eunuch apart from the word being preached to him by Phillip?

Acts 9:6 Saul was sent to Ananias to be TOLD what to do.

Acts 10, Simon was sent to the Gentiles (Cornelius) to take the gospel to them. In Acts 11:14 it is said the Gentiles would be saved by WORDS, not by some supernatural act of the HS upon their heats apart from the word.

I wont' take all the time needed to finish the entire book but example after example men were converted, convicted by the WORD and not ever a single time is it said anyone had to first be "regenerated" by the HS before they could hear , understand and be saved.



Point #1 above does not disprove that the HS convicts men by His WORD


Point #2. There were men inspired by the Holy Spirit to write down WORDS (1 Corinthians 2:13) where we uninspired people can read those WORDS and UNDERSTAND those words (Ephesians 3:3-4). Paul did NOT say "when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ with supernatural regeneration/illumination of the HS.

Points #3 and 4. The HS does reveal truth and convince the world by His WORD not by any supernatural means as seen in the books of Acts.


Point #5, The Spirit calls men by His word...."Whereunto he called you by our gospel..." 2 Thessalonians 2:14.


I like how in the link below it shows how men who claim to have be "regenerated" or supernaturally had their understanding "illuminated" by the Holy Spirit contradict each other on various bible issues when the HS would not ever contradict Himself:
The Holy Spirit "Illumination" Theory: A Critical Review

 

[DeaconDean]

I posted "If you refer to Psalms 51:5 then look at an accurate word for word translation for the NIV butchers the underlying Hebrew putting words into David's mouth he never said."

I said "IF" you use the NIV. An accurate word for word translation of the bible does not teach original sin therefore men create perversions of the bible to try and force the idea on people.

That is only your opinion.

Bible Verses About Original Sin
Bible verses related to Original Sin from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 3:10-18 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (Read More...)

1 John 1:8-10 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (Read More...)

Genesis 3:22 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Isaiah 59:2 - But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

James 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Deuteronomy 1:39 - Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Romans 7:9-11 - For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (Read More...)

Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 - Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Romans 2:14-15 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: (Read More...)

Ephesians 2:1-3 - And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Read More...)

Psalms 14:2-3 - The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God. (Read More...)

Romans 6:12 - Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Job 31:18 - (For from my youth he was brought up with me, as [with] a father, and I have guided her from my mother's womb

Genesis 3:1-19 - Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Read More...)

Source

No verse teaches man is BORN in iniquity-depravity.

So evidently you ignored the Hebrew, and the link to the Hebrew verse I provided.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

That would be a safe assumption for the word, the Bible is the only book I know of inspired by the Holy Spirit that man has today.

"Word" is used in three distinct ways in the scripture.

"Word" (big W) as Jesus Christ "the Living Word".

"Word" (little w)as in the words spoken by men.

Word (little w) as used in reference to the written word.

So a distinction had to be made and that is the direction I went.

I find it very interesting, humorous, curious that you tell me that I "need to read and study your bible more" but then you post a long quote, NOT FROM THE INSPIRED WORD of the Holy Spirit but by an uninspired false teacher.

Let me ask you this.

When did it become a rule that the scripture was the only thing that could be used?

The Holy Spirit "Illumination" Theory: A Critical Review

Hello pot, this is kettle.

You castigate me for using Confessions of Faith, Baptist Theology, Reformed Theology, and yet turn right around and do the same thing. i.e.: The Holy Spirit "Illumination" Theory: A Critical Review

The whole point of using the sources I did was to show/prove to you that during the Old Testament, there wasn't a written word, i.e.: scriptures. So the Holy Spirit absolutely did operate outside the word.

There was not a canon of Old Testament scriptures until AD 400 or so.

That fact alone proves you wrong.

And if He did it in the Old Testament, He absolutely does it during the NT era. Otherwise the scriptures are in error. And if they are in error, they can't be trusted.

You come here with a chip on your shoulder, put us down who have went beyond the scriptures to obtain a high learning/understanding of them, and refuse to acknowledge when you've been proven wrong like when I did using the Hebrew of Psa. 51:5 and a Hebrew lexicon.

The first time, well not the first time, but to be castigated for going to seminary.

Shows me just what some people do.

I'm done with you.

Expect no further replies from me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[TheSeabass]

That is only your opinion.

Bible Verses About Original Sin
Bible verses related to Original Sin from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

---the phrase "have sinned" implies one's own culpability in sinning and not how one was passively born.
---In Romans chapters 1-3, Paul proves that all (Jews and Gentiles) are under sin yet not one time did Paul mention original sin but prove they were sinners for having committed sin. Paul could have summed up 3 chapters in 1 verse if original sin were true by saying all are under sin because of original sin.
---If original sin were true, the Christ along with infants would be born with it. Yet in Romans 3 and Romans 5, the sinners Paul speaks about are those that are 1) capable of sinning and 2) have chosen to sin. Infants are not capable of sinning and though Christ was capable of sinning He chose not to sin. Therefore infants and Christ do not fall under sin.

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Nowhere does David say he was born a sinner. Such an aide contradicts a whole host of other verses.

David is using very poetic, FIGURATIVE language and any interpretation places upon his words cannot contradict other passages and having David born a sinner does for a fact contradict other passages.

Some points to note:

(1) Psalms 51:5 speaks of conception while Psalms 58:3 speaks of birth. Conception and birth are 2 distinct points separated by about 9 months. So does one become a sinner at conception or does not become a sinner until birth? Cannot become a sinner at both places, must be one or the other. Also Psa 58:3 says " they go astray" that shows personal culpability in sinning and not how one was passively born. Also in Psalms 58 David speaks of breaking their TEETH and their SPEAKING lies and will not HEARKEN and calls them "young lions". Obviously David is using figurative language and he is not talking about new born infants for they neither have teeth are able to speak lies or hearken. He is talking about mankind going astray in his youth (Genesis 8:21) not at birth.

(2) " in sin did my mother conceive me."

If one takes David's language literally then David is talking about the sin of his mother.

"in sin did my mother conceive me"
"in a drunken rage a husband beat his wife"

Who was in a drunken rage? the husband
Who was in sin? David's mother.

Also in Psalms 51:1-4 David repeatedly speaks of "my transgressions", "my sin" and "mine iniquity" and "I have sinner". David is speaking about his own sin with Bathsheba and not Adam's sins. Some commentators say that in verse 5, David is speaking from the viewpoint of David's baby that Bathsheba gave birth to. The baby is saying in sin did my mother Bathsheba conceive me.

(3) If David is speaking about his own sin in Psa 51:5 then he is speaking about sinning that took place in his life in general and not at birth. In Job 31:8 Job speaks of helping the widow from his mother's womb. Obviously Job did not help the widows and fatherless from the womb but is speaking figuratively of his life in general in helping them NOT what took place at his birth.

(4) it is my opinion that David is referring to the sinful environment each one is conceived in. The bible describes the world as a wicked place full of sin and iniquity. One can be conceived/born in that environment but that does not make one a sinner. No more if I weer born in China wold that make me Chinese.

Acts 2:8, if I were there at Pentecost I would say I hared the aposltes speak in the English language wherein I was born. This does not mean I was born speaking/understanding the English language but was born in an environment where Englsih is spoken and I in time learned to speak it myself. Likewise David (all of us) are born in a sinful environment and in time we learn right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16) and choose to sin.

Romans 3:10-18 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (Read More...)

---see my notes on Rom 5 above.
---the context of Roamns 3:10-18 is being specificallly directed to the Jews (Romans 3:19) to prove they are not better than the Gentiles (Romans 3:9) and not to each individual universally.
---Romans 3:12 speaks of these that "go astray" and "become unprofitable" not they were BORN astray or BORN unprofitable. Also Paul speaks of "heir tongues they have used deceit", "whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness" and "Their feet are swift to shed blood". Obvioulsy Paul is NOT talking about infants here for the new born infants do not have the capacity to speak or have feet able to shed blood

1 John 1:8-10 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (Read More...)


Genesis 3:22 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Isaiah 59:2 - But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

None of these verses say anything about being born a sinner.

Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This verse speaks of people dying for their own sins and not Adam's sin...The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

James 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Says nothing about being born a sinner.

Deuteronomy 1:39 - Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Shows small children do not know right from wrong for it must be learned.

Romans 7:9-11 - For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (Read More...)

Proof text against original sin. SIn riveid later in Paul's life not with him at birth. Since John said sin is transgression of the law and Paul was without the law once means sin had no power over paul when he was an infant.

Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 - Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Romans 2:14-15 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: (Read More...)

Ephesians 2:1-3 - And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Read More...)

Psalms 14:2-3 - The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God. (Read More...)

Romans 6:12 - Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Job 31:18 - (For from my youth he was brought up with me, as [with] a father, and I have guided her from my mother's womb

Genesis 3:1-19 - Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Read More...)

Source

NOt one of these verses say anything about being born a sinner.

You simply copy and pasted verses, gave no explanation of the verses, but have us ASSUME original sin is found in these verses. I ttk a lot of time and gave some close examination to some of these verses to plainly see original sin is not remotely found in any of them.

So evidently you ignored the Hebrew, and the link to the Hebrew verse I provided.

God Bless

Till all are one.

THe "Hebrew" does not prove anyone is born a sinner.

Again, John said sin is transgression of the law. Therefore what law did a newly conceived person transgress in order for him/her to be a sinner? Did the newly conceive lie? Steal? Murder? Commit adultery? Obviously not. Therefore the newly conceived cannot be sinners for they have not sinned/transgressed God's law. One cannot be a sinner without committing sin therefore the bible makes the idea of original sin impossible

 

[TheSeabass]

"Word" is used in three distinct ways in the scripture.

"Word" (big W) as Jesus Christ "the Living Word".

"Word" (little w)as in the words spoken by men.

Word (little w) as used in reference to the written word.

So a distinction had to be made and that is the direction I went.



Let me ask you this.

When did it become a rule that the scripture was the only thing that could be used?



Hello pot, this is kettle.

You castigate me for using Confessions of Faith, Baptist Theology, Reformed Theology, and yet turn right around and do the same thing. i.e.: The Holy Spirit "Illumination" Theory: A Critical Review

The whole point of using the sources I did was to show/prove to you that during the Old Testament, there wasn't a written word, i.e.: scriptures. So the Holy Spirit absolutely did operate outside the word.

There was not a canon of Old Testament scriptures until AD 400 or so.

That fact alone proves you wrong.

And if He did it in the Old Testament, He absolutely does it during the NT era. Otherwise the scriptures are in error. And if they are in error, they can't be trusted.

You come here with a chip on your shoulder, put us down who have went beyond the scriptures to obtain a high learning/understanding of them, and refuse to acknowledge when you've been proven wrong like when I did using the Hebrew of Psa. 51:5 and a Hebrew lexicon.

The first time, well not the first time, but to be castigated for going to seminary.

Shows me just what some people do.

I'm done with you.

Expect no further replies from me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

All the documents you list above are UNINSPIRED man made doctrines that contain man made biases.

Where does any man get the idea he can write his own document and it is as inspired and has as much authority as the bible?

Where do you get the idea that God's word can be found some where other than the bible?

Jeremiah once said "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Evidently you think man can set his own way and guide his own steps by his own uninspired, error filled documents.

The fact men do not stay with the bible as God's final and sole authority is how there ends up being 1000's of religious groups that all contradict each other yet all claim they follow the bible. Not only is this illogical foolishness, it goes directly against the teachings of the bible that there is one body and one faith- Ephesians 4:4-5.

 

[TaylorSexton]

...there ends up being 1000's of religious groups that all contradict each other yet all claim they follow the bible. Not only is this illogical foolishness, it goes directly against the teachings of the bible that there is one body and one faith...

And I take it to mean that you alone have found and belong to the true Church?

 

[TheSeabass]

And I take it to mean that you alone have found and belong to the true Church?

Anyone can find the truth, but it will never be found in all the contradicting foolishness created by man.


Do you believe the bible is God's book? If so, would God write a comedy book full of contradictions/errors? No. So the fact there are contradictions/differing interpretations prove that most do not have the truth. Jesus equated God's word to truth (John 17:17) and an essence of truth is it never contradicts itself. Therefore God's truth can never be found in the contradictions of man.

There is a truth in math that 1+1=2. Can all the various religious groups all disagree and contradict each other over what 2+2 equals and all be right,,all have mathematical truth? Not possible at all, mathematically, logically, any way. Likewise that cannot all contradict each other over the truth of God's word and all have the truth of God's word.

God's word is flawless with each and every verse in perfect, total, complete harmonization......which is not found among all the various religious groups.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Do you believe the bible is God's book? If so, would God write a comedy book full of contradictions/errors? No. So the fact there are contradictions/differing interpretations prove that most do not have the truth.

So, once again, I take this to mean that you believe that you alone have found the actual truth?

 

[TheSeabass]

So, once again, I take this to mean that you believe that you alone have found the actual truth?

I do believe I do have "the truth" of the bible as other people I know also possess it. My point was that no one can find the truth in the man made contradictions.

I do notice you have not given an answer for all the man made contradictions vs. the Bible.

 

[TaylorSexton]

I do notice you have not given an answer for all the man made contradictions vs. the Bible.

What contradictions have I asserted? I was not aware that I have asserted any.

 

[TheSeabass]

What contradictions have I asserted? I was not aware that I have asserted any.

I am referring to all the 1000's of religious groups out there today that have contradicting ideas and beliefs.
Since the word of God is truth, is perfect, flawless with no contradictions, then how can it be logically possible all these people/groups are all following the truth of the bible?

 

[TaylorSexton]

I am referring to all the 1000's of religious groups out there today that have contradicting ideas and beliefs.
Since the word of God is truth, is perfect, flawless with no contradictions, then how can it be logically possible all these people/groups are all following the truth of the bible?

You didn't answer my question. What contradictions have I asserted? If I have not asserted any, then just say it plainly. There is no harm in that.