Regarding adultery

[gadar perets]

I was asking 'what is polygamy' in terms of it's morality. This was made explicit when I said:
"In what way is polygamy unholy? You wont say it's a sin - what is it then?"
I wasn't asking for you to define it's meaning.

It is something the Almighty allowed, if the laws of the land permitted it, but it is also something He does not desire His people to partake of. His desire is for a man to leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife (singular). However, since He never said, "Thou shalt not marry a second wife," polygamy cannot be a sin or immoral. Yet, it is a practice that has many drawbacks, especially of hindering one from fully maturing into the spiritually minded person the Almighty wants us to become.

You said I wouldn't understand because I am not a believer - I was merely pointing out that not all who claim belief are true believers.

I totally agree.

That a polygamous marriage might be the only option for a woman.

Gen 16:1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
Gen 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, YHWH hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
Gen 16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.​

This was a marriage of necessity in Sarai's foolish attempt to have a child.

I was referring to how aggrieved the first wife might feel at the prospect of her husband marrying another woman and having sex with her.

It is certainly possible which is one reason why polygamy does not tend toward holiness. We should not do things that would grieve other people or possibly cause a stumbling block for them in their walk with Yeshua.

Just out of curiosity, are you a polygamist?

 

[janxharris]

It is something the Almighty allowed, if the laws of the land permitted it, but it is also something He does not desire His people to partake of. His desire is for a man to leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife (singular). However, since He never said, "Thou shalt not marry a second wife," polygamy cannot be a sin or immoral. Yet, it is a practice that has many drawbacks, especially of hindering one from fully maturing into the spiritually minded person the Almighty wants us to become.

I admit that this is possible, but it is very odd that there isn't an explicit scripture resolving the issue once and for all. As I have mentioned before, Jesus enjoins belief in Him - so a good case must be made (for the veracity of scripture) that could withstand scrutiny.

I still feel that the case is less than watertight and doubt is justifiable.

I totally agree.

I hoped you would.

Gen 16:1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
Gen 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, YHWH hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
Gen 16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.​

This was a marriage of necessity in Sarai's foolish attempt to have a child.

I was asking for a citation proving that a polygamous marriage for a woman might be the only option open to her. Since Hagar was Sarah's handmaid then her financial welfare couldn't have been an issue. If Sarah hadn't proposed as she did then Hager would, presumably, have continue as before without difficulty.

It is certainly possible which is one reason why polygamy does not tend toward holiness. We should not do things that would grieve other people or possibly cause a stumbling block for them in their walk with Yeshua.

Ok.

Just out of curiosity, are you a polygamist?

No.

 

[gadar perets]

I admit that this is possible, but it is very odd that there isn't an explicit scripture resolving the issue once and for all. As I have mentioned before, Jesus enjoins belief in Him - so a good case must be made (for the veracity of scripture) that could withstand scrutiny.

There are many other "gray" areas in Scripture that do not make the Almighty's will perfectly clear. Is it OK for a believer to smoke cigarettes, vape, smoke weed, drive a car on Sabbath, wear short skirts, call a man "father", etc. We have been given a free will and the ability to study Scripture with the Holy Spirit's leading for the best course of action to take in life. If we make a mistake and choose wrong, hopefully we will learn from those mistakes. The Almighty is full of mercy and forgiveness. He is a just and loving Father who tries to teach us to do right at all times. Much of that teaching comes as He gently guides us back on the proper course. If we are stiff necked and refuse to be corrected gently, then He chastens us in ways we won't like. Either way, He is attempting to lead us back to do His will because He loves us.

The sad thing is that many people in this world do not know how much their Creator loves them. They don't realize they are turning their backs on the one being in the universe that loves them more than anyone else. The forces of darkness have done much to deceive people through lies, false information, worldly distractions, etc., to keep them from a relationship with their Creator and His Son Yeshua. In your case, the forces of darkness are causing you to doubt the character of the Almighty by causing you to question the things He does, for example, allowing polygamy. But what does He say through the prophet Isaiah?

Isaiah 55:6-9 Seek you YHWH while He may be found, call you upon Him while He is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto YHWH, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.
8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says YHWH.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
​

We need to trust that the Creator is just and loving and not allow the enemy of our souls to put doubts in our minds that keep us from coming to faith in YHWH.

 

[janxharris]

There are many other "gray" areas in Scripture that do not make the Almighty's will perfectly clear. Is it OK for a believer to smoke cigarettes, vape, smoke weed, drive a car on Sabbath, wear short skirts, call a man "father", etc. We have been given a free will and the ability to study Scripture with the Holy Spirit's leading for the best course of action to take in life. If we make a mistake and choose wrong, hopefully we will learn from those mistakes. The Almighty is full of mercy and forgiveness. He is a just and loving Father who tries to teach us to do right at all times. Much of that teaching comes as He gently guides us back on the proper course. If we are stiff necked and refuse to be corrected gently, then He chastens us in ways we won't like. Either way, He is attempting to lead us back to do His will because He loves us.

The sad thing is that many people in this world do not know how much their Creator loves them. They don't realize they are turning their backs on the one being in the universe that loves them more than anyone else. The forces of darkness have done much to deceive people through lies, false information, worldly distractions, etc., to keep them from a relationship with their Creator and His Son Yeshua. In your case, the forces of darkness are causing you to doubt the character of the Almighty by causing you to question the things He does, for example, allowing polygamy. But what does He say through the prophet Isaiah?

Isaiah 55:6-9 Seek you YHWH while He may be found, call you upon Him while He is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto YHWH, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.
8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says YHWH.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
​

We need to trust that the Creator is just and loving and not allow the enemy of our souls to put doubts in our minds that keep us from coming to faith in YHWH.

Thanks but replying to this would probably derail the thread. I do appreciate what you have written though.

I was asking for a citation proving that a polygamous marriage for a woman might be the only option open to her. Since Hagar was Sarah's handmaid then her financial welfare couldn't have been an issue. If Sarah hadn't proposed as she did then Hager would, presumably, have continue as before without difficulty.

 

[gadar perets]

Thanks but replying to this would probably derail the thread. I do appreciate what you have written though.

I was asking for a citation proving that a polygamous marriage for a woman might be the only option open to her. Since Hagar was Sarah's handmaid then her financial welfare couldn't have been an issue. If Sarah hadn't proposed as she did then Hager would, presumably, have continue as before without difficulty.

Why don't you start a new thread addressing your other concerns that keep you from coming to faith in your Creator?

 

[janxharris]

Why don't you start a new thread addressing your other concerns that keep you from coming to faith in your Creator?

Respectfully, I'm not necessarily the one who is being kept from faith in the truth.

 

[gadar perets]

Respectfully, I'm not necessarily the one who is being kept from faith in the truth.

Am I? Please elaborate. BTW, I did not say "truth", but "Creator" since previously you wrote, "It would be problematic for me to have faith in a God who permitted polygamy".

 

[janxharris]

Am I?

It's possible.

Please elaborate.

I was merely pointing out your assumption that there is a Creator.

BTW, I did not say "truth", but "Creator" since previously you wrote, "It would be problematic for me to have faith in a God who permitted polygamy".

Ok.

 

[gadar perets]

I was merely pointing out your assumption that there is a Creator.

It is only an assumption to those who assume there is no Creator. That the Creator exists is evident by the intricate design in creation itself, not to mention my own personal encounter with Him.

 

[janxharris]

It is only an assumption to those who assume there is no Creator. That the Creator exists is evident by the intricate design in creation itself, not to mention my own personal encounter with Him.

But also, do you not think, an assumption to those who do not know either way?

Darwinism is a possible rival theory to Creationism - though, perhaps, it too suffers from possible inconsistencies.

Do you not agree tha the very thing Christ asks of us - that we believe in him - is humanly impossible?

 

[RDKirk]

That's two definitions for adultery - one for men and one for women.

Jesus prohibits polygyny in Matthew 5:28 (if words are to be trusted to have meaning).

Polygamy is not prohibited by the Mosaic Law.

Jesus does effectively prohibit both in Matthew. He also immediately states why polygamy was permitted by the Mosaic Law and why He has rescinded that permission.

 

[RDKirk]

It is something the Almighty allowed, if the laws of the land permitted it, but it is also something He does not desire His people to partake of. His desire is for a man to leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife (singular). However, since He never said, "Thou shalt not marry a second wife," polygamy cannot be a sin or immoral. Yet, it is a practice that has many drawbacks, especially of hindering one from fully maturing into the spiritually minded person the Almighty wants us to become.

If you know what your master wants you to do but seek a loophole to avoid it, can that really be considered obedience?

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Would appreciate a definition of adultery if anyone would like to have a go. That this is important is highlighted by that it was a stonable offence:

Leviticus 20:10
“‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbour—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."

John 8:3-5
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women.Now what do you say?”

To anyone interested - it is not my intention to disprove scripture (even though this might seem to be the case upon reading my posts); rather, I wish to examine and test to see if what is written is true.

Acts 17:11

Betrothment is tantamount to engagement without sex.

Biblical marriage is when two people come together to make one flesh - through intercourse.

If anyone goes out and has sex with another person who has also had sex/married with someone (i.e. is "physically bonded" to another person,) they are both adulterers. And, the affair bonds the new pair, and breaks the bond of the previous pair(s).

Adultery is the ONLY approved method of divorce under God; sex is what defines marriage under God. Everything else is an institutionalization of the meaning of marriage - writs, etc.

Adam and Eve married under the Word of God - under God - without need for a lisence. They were already kicked out of the garden, wandering the earth - yet they were recognized as married under God.

The woman at the well was told she had many husbands - because she slept with several people. (Even she first denied being married.)

The idea of marriage over time has become less of an issue of union under God, and more about an institutional privilege.

 

[gadar perets]

But also, do you not think, an assumption to those who do not know either way?

Yes.

Darwinism is a possible rival theory to Creationism - though, perhaps, it too suffers from possible inconsistencies.

Creationism is not a theory, Darwinism is.

Do you not agree tha the very thing Christ asks of us - that we believe in him - is humanly impossible?

How can it be impossible if so many people believe in him? It is one of the simplest things a human can do. All you need to do is make that free will choice after you hear the Gospel.

 

[gadar perets]

If you know what your master wants you to do but seek a loophole to avoid it, can that really be considered obedience?

For a believer, no. Unbelievers don't know what Yeshua wants.

 

[RDKirk]

For a believer, no. Unbelievers don't know what Yeshua wants.

It doesn't matter for unbelievers--unbelievers are dead in their sin. Before and until belief, it doesn't matter what an unbeliever does. Nothing he does is in obedience to Christ or pleasing to the Lord.

 

[gadar perets]

It doesn't matter for unbelievers--unbelievers are dead in their sin. Before and until belief, it doesn't matter what an unbeliever does. Nothing he does is in obedience to Christ or pleasing to the Lord.

I agree. Aren't we saying the same thing?

 

[Ygrene Imref]

As far as polygamy is concerned in the bible, what I get from that is that God did not condone polygamy - He simply "shook His head" as the biblical "heroes" continued in their [many] sins.

But, He is very clear that 1) no man can put asunder what He recognizes as unionized, 2) adultery breaks the union between wife and husband, and 3) offenders will be judged.

David allegedly had ~400 concubines; God didn't ignore that. A lot of the canon situations seemingly lacking [expected] judgment only seem like that.

 

[janxharris]

Creationism is not a theory, Darwinism is.

Then you will have little trouble furnishing us with your proof.

How can it be impossible if so many people believe in him? It is one of the simplest things a human can do. All you need to do is make that free will choice after you hear the Gospel.

Many people believe in Allah.

You mean a freewill choice to guess whether Jesus was as described in scripture?

 

[janxharris]

It doesn't matter for unbelievers--unbelievers are dead in their sin. Before and until belief, it doesn't matter what an unbeliever does. Nothing he does is in obedience to Christ or pleasing to the Lord.

Are you a Calvinist?

gadar perets:
"It is one of the simplest things a human can do. All you need to do is make that free will choice after you hear the Gospel."

you:
"Before and until belief, it doesn't matter what an unbeliever does. Nothing he does is in obedience to Christ or pleasing to the Lord."

Do followers of Christ sing from the same hymn sheet on this matter?