Tree of Life
Hide The Pain
- Feb 15, 2013
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That isn't the definition we find in Romans 7:1-3.
Your definition would allow extra-marital sex and polygamy.
Yes it is.
Yes it does.
I understand why it seems bizarre. But God giving grace to people in different periods never change the lawfulness or unlawfulness of a subject matter. This is my take away from Romans 5. No Mosaic law was given until Moses which means sin was not imputed to those people. Nonetheless, sin still existed and everyone still died. The consequence of sin always remains. In all those stories of the people who had polygamous or incestuous relationships, all kinds of trouble and problems occurred.
The OT for Christians is an example for us, not a covenant. We are not under the law but grace. So the OT stories warn us of consequences through those examples if we choose to sin. In Christ sin is not imputed, but the consequences remain. For those who think grace is license to sin, as in the sloppy agape crowd, they misunderstand the purpose of grace. Grace is given for repentance. As we realize those sinful choices we make, grace encourages us to repent. Paul tells us that it is the goodness of the Lord that leads us to repentance. Jesus said that if we love him we will obey his commandments. This does not mean our obedience proves our love, but rather, our motivation for obedience is because of our love for Him.
Much confusion is created when we try to understand God, and what He has done through the ages, with our natural understanding. It takes spiritual understanding which means we have to understand the character of God Himself to understand his motivations and purposes.
It seems to me that Yeshua was setting things right. Divorce for all sorts of reasons was not YHWH's perfect will, so Yeshua was revealing YHWH's perfect will; divorce is only permissible for sexual immorality. Similarly, polygamy was not YHWH's perfect will, so Yeshua set that right as well; a man should be married to one wife.Do we conclude that Christianity has no defence for this issue? That Jesus and Paul's views are at odds with Moses'?
It seems to me that Yeshua was setting things right. Divorce for all sorts of reasons was not YHWH's perfect will, so Yeshua was revealing YHWH's perfect will; divorce is only permissible for sexual immorality. Similarly, polygamy was not YHWH's perfect will, so Yeshua set that right as well; a man should be married to one wife.
I agree, polygamy laws have not disappeared. If a man chooses to be a polygamist, he must adhere to those laws. However, there are no laws saying a person must be a polygamist. Since Yeshua and other NT writers suggest we should not practice polygamy, then we should obey and not marry two or more women. Actually, since those in Messiah Yeshua are said to be "kings", then we should obey the Torah teaching regarding kings not multiplying wives to themselves (Deuteronomy 17:17).Thanks for your reply.
If your reasoning is correct, why did Jesus say
Matthew 5:17-18
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
?
Apparently, Jesus is saying that laws relating polygamy 'will by no means disappear'.
I agree, polygamy laws have not disappeared. If a man chooses to be a polygamist, he must adhere to those laws. However, there are no laws saying a person must be a polygamist. Since Yeshua and other NT writers suggest we should not practice polygamy, then we should obey and not marry two or more women. Actually, since those in Messiah Yeshua are said to be "kings", then we should obey the Torah teaching regarding kings not multiplying wives to themselves (Deuteronomy 17:17).
I agree, polygamy laws have not disappeared. If a man chooses to be a polygamist, he must adhere to those laws. However, there are no laws saying a person must be a polygamist. Since Yeshua and other NT writers suggest we should not practice polygamy, then we should obey and not marry two or more women. Actually, since those in Messiah Yeshua are said to be "kings", then we should obey the Torah teaching regarding kings not multiplying wives to themselves (Deuteronomy 17:17).
Skeptics will say all manner of things in an attempt to discredit Scripture. That doesn't mean they are correct. Any anomaly that seems to present itself has its foundation in the person who sees it and not in the text itself. When the Word is rightly understood there is harmony. Skeptics create disharmony.Some might argue that this is doublespeak - that, in fact, scripture is contradicting itself.
Why would I, should I, trust such a document? The sceptic has a case doesn't he? I cannot believe that a creator of the universe would leave such an anomaly in his writings and expect that we should put our faith in it. One could use such an argument to reject Darwinism for instance. By all means say that the work of God is to believe in the one who was sent - but not if what we have as a testament to Jesus is seemingly flawed.
Skeptics will say all manner of things in an attempt to discredit Scripture. That doesn't mean they are correct. Any anomaly that seems to present itself has its foundation in the person who sees it and not in the text itself. When the Word is rightly understood there is harmony. Skeptics create disharmony.
I never said it was OK for men. Neither did the Almighty. Under the New Covenant, it is not OK. Under the Old Covenant, it was not OK, but was allowed, probably for the same reason divorce was, because of the hardness of men's hearts. The fact that YHWH forbid it for kings should have given the common man a hint that it was YHWH's perfect will that man have only one wife.That more than one husband for a woman is explicitly outlawed (Romans 7:1-3) should mean that it's the same for men. Having to defend that it is okay for men makes for an uncomfortable defence and renders the seventh commandment almost meaningless.
Are you saying he did not mean what he said?Yet you would have to concede that Jesus was not making a definitive statement when he said that looking lustfully at another woman was adultery.
Yes. A Levirate marriage is one example. Marrying someone to help care for the household or because one has compassion on them as a widow may be other examples.It's possible to be a polygamist and not look lustfully?
I am not a Christian (and all that entails in modern Christianity), but I am a disciple of Messiah Yeshua and try to walk his ways .You make an assertion - but you haven't actually refuted what I said. Your position is that polygamy is lawful. Hearing this from a Christian pretty astonishing to me and enough reason to doubt scripture.
What, exactly, have I not refuted?but you haven't actually refuted what I said.
I never said it was OK for men. Neither did the Almighty.
The fact that YHWH forbid it for kings should have given the common man a hint that it was YHWH's perfect will that man have only one wife.
Are you saying he did not mean what he said?
Yes. A Levirate marriage is one example. Marrying someone to help care for the household or because one has compassion on them as a widow may be other examples.
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