Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Root of Jesse]

If it ain't everything, it ain't nothin'.

You say so.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I see you're back, after unsubscribing. Did you have a nice nap?

Yes, yes I did. Now to go find something more stimulating to read.

 

[Standing Up]

I got to remember that made me laugh

Me too. Where did that come from.

Wonder if MC found it funny too. He seems to have disappeared all of a sudden.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Aside from the exact words missing, why do you fail to see this in operation in the OT as Christ, Peter, and Paul demonstrate?

I see the Lord Jesus Christ saying things that appear quite contrary to the SS definition. The Lord says:

'For I tell you, if your uprightness does not surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never get into the kingdom of Heaven.

'You have heard how it was said to our ancestors, You shall not kill; and if anyone does kill he must answer for it before the court. But I say this to you, anyone who is angry with a brother will answer for it before the court; anyone who calls a brother "Fool" will answer for it before the Sanhedrin; and anyone who calls him "Traitor" will answer for it in hell fire. So then, if you are bringing your offering to the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar, go and be reconciled with your brother first, and then come back and present your offering. Come to terms with your opponent in good time while you are still on the way to the court with him, or he may hand you over to the judge and the judge to the officer, and you will be thrown into prison. In truth I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the last penny.

'You have heard how it was said, You shall not commit adultery. But I say this to you, if a man looks at a woman lustfully, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye should be your downfall, tear it out and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body thrown into hell. And if your right hand should be your downfall, cut it off and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body go to hell.

'It has also been said, Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a writ of dismissal. But I say this to you, everyone who divorces his wife, except for the case of an illicit marriage, makes her an adulteress; and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

'Again, you have heard how it was said to our ancestors, You must not break your oath, but must fulfil your oaths to the Lord. But I say this to you, do not swear at all, either by heaven, since that is God's throne; or by earth, since that is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, since that is the city of the great King. Do not swear by your own head either, since you cannot turn a single hair white or black. All you need say is "Yes" if you mean yes, "No" if you mean no; anything more than this comes from the Evil One.

'You have heard how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer no resistance to the wicked. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well; if someone wishes to go to law with you to get your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone requires you to go one mile, go two miles with him. Give to anyone who asks you, and if anyone wants to borrow, do not turn away.

'You have heard how it was said, You will love your neighbour and hate your enemy. But I say this to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; so that you may be children of your Father in heaven, for he causes his sun to rise on the bad as well as the good, and sends down rain to fall on the upright and the wicked alike. For if you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even the tax collectors do as much? And if you save your greetings for your brothers, are you doing anything exceptional? Do not even the gentiles do as much? You must therefore be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.'
(Matthew 5:20-48 NJB)​

I know that the quote is long and that some reading this post may skip over it but the quote is important because the Lord repeatedly offers views that are not written in the old testament as superior to those that were written in the old testament.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ's doctrine on "sola scriptura testing" - resulted in hammering the traditions of the Jewish magisterium of His day and promoting the authority of the Word of God - yes even as found in the Ten Commandments.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

The elders consisting of scribes and pharise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .


Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)

 

[BobRyan]

I see the Lord Jesus Christ saying things that appear quite contrary to the SS definition.

Matt 5 magnifies scripture

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.


27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

====================

That magnification of moral law could never be "man-enforced" that would be to become "the thought police" but God sees and God can enforce it.

 

[Standing Up]

I know that the quote is long and that some reading this post may skip over it but the quote is important because the Lord repeatedly offers views that are not written in the old testament as superior to those that were written in the old testament.

Many of us understand that RC believes it can repeatedly offer views that are not written in scripture. Try to answer post #1875. Stay on topic.

 

[Standing Up]

Bump post #1875

SU: Leaving aside the question of the number of valid (God-breathed) OT books, would folks think the OT is lacking or is it complete for all things doctrinal and practice?

Yes, there may be interpretation, but the authority was scripture. Scripture is over which they might argue.

Yes, they may cite someone's tradition, but the authority was scripture. Not the tradition per se.

Here's Christ in Luke 24:27.
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Here's Peter in 2 Peter 1:21.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Here's Paul in Acts 26:22.
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Everyone good? Any disagreement?

So, SS is in OT.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Bump post #1875

SU: Leaving aside the question of the number of valid (God-breathed) OT books, would folks think the OT is lacking or is it complete for all things doctrinal and practice?

Yes, there may be interpretation, but the authority was scripture. Scripture is over which they might argue.

Yes, they may cite someone's tradition, but the authority was scripture. Not the tradition per se.

Here's Christ in Luke 24:27.
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Here's Peter in 2 Peter 1:21.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Here's Paul in Acts 26:22.
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Everyone good? Any disagreement?

So, SS is in OT.

They are my favorites (together) combined then with

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


All good here

 

[BobRyan]

​

I know that the quote is long and that some reading this post may skip over it but the quote is important because the Lord repeatedly offers views that are not written in the old testament as superior to those that were written in the old testament.

Matt 5 is an example of Christ magnifying the Old Testament - not contradicting it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Many of us understand that RC believes it can repeatedly offer views that are not written in scripture. Try to answer post #1875. Stay on topic.

meh. Looks like if you don't like the passage in scripture then you'll pretend it isn't there.

 

[MoreCoffee]

'For I tell you, if your uprightness does not surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never get into the kingdom of Heaven.

'You have heard how it was said to our ancestors, You shall not kill; and if anyone does kill he must answer for it before the court. But I say this to you, anyone who is angry with a brother will answer for it before the court; anyone who calls a brother "Fool" will answer for it before the Sanhedrin; and anyone who calls him "Traitor" will answer for it in hell fire. So then, if you are bringing your offering to the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar, go and be reconciled with your brother first, and then come back and present your offering. Come to terms with your opponent in good time while you are still on the way to the court with him, or he may hand you over to the judge and the judge to the officer, and you will be thrown into prison. In truth I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the last penny.

'You have heard how it was said, You shall not commit adultery. But I say this to you, if a man looks at a woman lustfully, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye should be your downfall, tear it out and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body thrown into hell. And if your right hand should be your downfall, cut it off and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body go to hell.

'It has also been said, Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a writ of dismissal. But I say this to you, everyone who divorces his wife, except for the case of an illicit marriage, makes her an adulteress; and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

'Again, you have heard how it was said to our ancestors, You must not break your oath, but must fulfil your oaths to the Lord. But I say this to you, do not swear at all, either by heaven, since that is God's throne; or by earth, since that is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, since that is the city of the great King. Do not swear by your own head either, since you cannot turn a single hair white or black. All you need say is "Yes" if you mean yes, "No" if you mean no; anything more than this comes from the Evil One.

'You have heard how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer no resistance to the wicked. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well; if someone wishes to go to law with you to get your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone requires you to go one mile, go two miles with him. Give to anyone who asks you, and if anyone wants to borrow, do not turn away.

'You have heard how it was said, You will love your neighbour and hate your enemy. But I say this to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; so that you may be children of your Father in heaven, for he causes his sun to rise on the bad as well as the good, and sends down rain to fall on the upright and the wicked alike. For if you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even the tax collectors do as much? And if you save your greetings for your brothers, are you doing anything exceptional? Do not even the gentiles do as much? You must therefore be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.'
(Matthew 5:20-48 NJB)​

In each case where the Lord Jesus Christ says "but I say to you" there follows new material that is not a quote from the old testament. No matter how hard one tries one cannot make the above passage into a rehearsal of the old testament law. It is the new covenant law in the new revelation given to the world by the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no SS here. The teaching of Christ is genuinely new.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Me too. Where did that come from.

Wonder if MC found it funny too. He seems to have disappeared all of a sudden.

I went to bed. One needs sleep and responding to CF posts is not nearly as high on my priority list as a nice comfy sleep in a nice comfy bed

 

[BobRyan]

Mark 7:6-13 impossible to refute for those opposed to Christ's teaching about sola scriptura testing of all tradition and doctrine - as we just saw --
Yesterday at 9:01 AM #1905

 

[BobRyan]

'For I tell you, if your uprightness does not surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never get into the kingdom of Heaven.

'You have heard how it was said to our ancestors, You shall not kill; and if anyone does kill he must answer for it before the court. But I say this to you, anyone who is angry with a brother will answer for it before the court; anyone who calls a brother "Fool" will answer for it before the Sanhedrin; and anyone who calls him "Traitor" will answer for it in hell fire. So then, if you are bringing your offering to the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar, go and be reconciled with your brother first, and then come back and present your offering. Come to terms with your opponent in good time while you are still on the way to the court with him, or he may hand you over to the judge and the judge to the officer, and you will be thrown into prison. In truth I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the last penny.

'You have heard how it was said, You s​

misses the detail in the context for this verse -

Matt 5 magnifies scripture

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

==============================

So much for the speculation that Christ contradicts the Bible to make His case for doctrine.​

 

[stevenfrancis]

How do we know when "the tradition" is from God, or is Gods will, and not from someone else?

From the whole of the Bishops of the Church which Jesus built upon the Apostles. We turn to the Church for clarity when well meaning Christians disagree with one another. Just as we turned to the Apostles, and the Bishops they appointed in the 1st century. It has never ceased to be so. Traditions which are not of God, and not supported by Holy Scripture, and/or the teaching authority of the Church, are not used in the formation of doctrine.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ's doctrine on "sola scriptura testing" - resulted in hammering the traditions of the Jewish magisterium of His day and promoting the authority of the Word of God - yes even as found in the Ten Commandments.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

The elders consisting of scribes and pharise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .


Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

MoreCoffee said: ↑
Where exactly does holy scripture teach that "the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice"?

Are you ready and willing to renounce Catholicism?

The Eastern Orthodox Denomination appears to have renounced Roman Catholicism, at least according to this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...oxs-to-come-under-pope.5805969/#post-37210170
What would it take for Orthodoxs to come under Pope

[quote MentalHolocaust]

The Pope would renounce his Roman Catholicism and become Orthodox. There is nothing that would cause the Church as a whole to join with him.

There are such things as uniate churches, which are basically Byzantine Catholic churches and the like, but they are no longer Orthodox.[/quote]




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[LittleLambofJesus]

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[Rick Otto]

Sad.
Broke his arm pattin' himself on his back.