Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Chandler50]

What gets me about all this is that people who rely on 'Just' the Bible, and not 'Tradition' as we Catholics do, dont realise that the Bible itself has been written via 'Tradition'. The Holy spirit working through man! Why should it be any different since the Bible was put together?

The Holy spirit did not desert everyone once the Bible was put together!! The Holy spirit continues!!

Beautifully stated.

 

[Chandler50]

Mate the reason you think scripture is not sufficient in its self is because you read a corrupt version of the Bible. Also Timothy 3:16-17 says that ALL SCRIPTURE is profitable for the man of GOD ! The word of God is more powerful than a two edged sword
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Also God cannot lie Titus 1:2 but rather men are full of lies
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

instead of believing Gods word you are fulfilling these verses
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Did you read my OP at all? I addressed your main argument with Tim 3:16-17. All scripture is useful, because it is inspired by God, how could it not be useful. But it is not the only authority because the Holy Spirit still lives among us.

All of the other verses you cited do not apply to this because when it says the 'word' it is not referring to written scripture. Read a Greek translation and you will see that all of the other verses when they say the 'word of God' it mean spoken word, not written word. I believe that God's word is authoritative regardless of if it is written or handed down orally through the Holy Spirit.

So if you believe that scripture is the only authority, what does that say about your view of the Holy Spirit living among us? Does God no longer speak to His people? If he does, then logically He would do it through the Church that he started on earth, right?

 

[Chandler50]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68578012, member: 235244"]Nothing in Christ's statement to the magisterium in Mark 7 claims "this is not from scripture but from the church".

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Nor does Christ make the circular argument "your doctrine is unholy because it is unholy" -

This is a "not so subtle point" that keeps getting glossed over. circular arguments don't work.

Nor does Christ say "you do not have your scripture confirmed by an outside source"

Nor does Christ say "ignore the scripture I am quoting to prove you are in error"

We are talking about slamming the traditions of the church via the Mark 7 method - sola scriptura - where it is found to be in conflict with the Word of God.

I have not identified a single tradition of the Jews or the RCC in my comments - I merely point to the sola scriptura testing model used by Christ to slam the Jewish one-true-church magisterium.

=============================

That is not rejecting all tradition - but it is submitting all tradition to the "sola scriptura" test.
It is "more than a little obvious" that all the Jewish magisterium of Christ's day viewed the tradition he was slamming "sola scriptura" as "holy tradition".

Nothing in there about "your tradition in this case is unholy... because... it is unholy" as we can all see.
Not all tradition is bad when compared to the Bible "authority" defining what is acceptable and what is not.

All/any/whatever RCC tradition that is condemned by Protestants is considered "human tradition" by definition because it contradicts the Bible.

That is "a given".
The question is how is it determined? And the answer is - it is determined to be man-made by comparing it to the Word of God - just as Jesus is doing in Mark 7.

I think both sides can see this point clearly.
It is irrefutable. Which is why I select it.

I simply point out that in Mark 7 Christ is using sola scriptura just as all non-Catholics say it should be applied.



Do you consider Christ in Mark 7 to be a "random person spouting their opinions"???

In Christ,

Bob[/QUOTE]
I believe you are cherry-picking verses to support your position. Mark seven is the only verse that condemns tradition. It is also the only verse that explicitly says that they are condemning human tradition (such as removing seven books from the canon that are inspired by God).

I will point the question back at you. Do you believe that the apostles were just 'spouting' randomly when they used tradition pass on the good news?

If you already forgot which verses I am referring too they are all in my OP. You cannot choose one chapter from the Bible, you must take it as a whole.

 

[Goatee]

Chandler50, i applaud your work here in this thread. I can see exactly what you are saying and for me it is 100% correct!!

1,000s of denominations in the world, each using the Bible in 'Their Own Way' with 'THEIR OWN' Interpretation of what scripture says!!! Sola Scripture in the extreme! They, for me, are lost! They rely on 'Man' to interpret Holy Scripture not on the 'HOLY SPIRIT!!'

 

[Chandler50]

Chandler50, i applaud your work here in this thread. I can see exactly what you are saying and for me it is 100% correct!!

1,000s of denominations in the world, each using the Bible in 'Their Own Way' with 'THEIR OWN' Interpretation of what scripture says!!! Sola Scripture in the extreme! They, for me, are lost! They rely on 'Man' to interpret Holy Scripture not on the 'HOLY SPIRIT!!'

Ironic, isn't it? Lol

 

[SAAN]

Tradition has always been the way of the Catholic Church. Handed down from the very beginning. Look how many 'religions' there are that believe in Sola Scripture! The Holy spirit works in those who have carried 'Tradition' down through the ages.

This says it all for me:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/scripture-and-tradition

The Catholic Church may have been handed down traditions from the beginning, but they changed everything to fit their doctrine afterwards.

The bible says keep Passover, Catholicism says keep Easter instead.
The bible says keep the Sabbath, Catholicism says keep Sunday instead.
The bible says keep the Feast Days, Catholicism keeps St (insert name) days instead and man made holidays instead.
The bible says Jesus was born around the Feast of Tabernacles, Catholicism says keep Christmas to celebrate Jesus birthday.
The bible says pray to the Father only only, Catholicism says you can pray to Mary.

This is just a short list and I could keep going on topics like The Pope, Purgatory, and other unbiblical doctrine from Catholicism. This is not a anti Catholic rant, but just pointing out that alot of what many in Catholicism think were traditions of Jesus passed down, were simply new traditions started by Rome and forced upon other who just went with it and dont have any biblical backing and at times goes 100% against scriptures.

Jesus and the apostles all taught from the Torah, so they did have writings to go by back then, although it wasnt called "The Bible". Everything was not oral and any traditions they had were based on scriptures, so God does have a standard in which we are to hold ourselves by.

 

[Albion]

The Catholic Church may have been handed down traditions from the beginning, but they changed everything to fit their doctrine afterwards.

The bible says keep Passover, Catholicism says keep Easter instead.
The bible says keep the Sabbath, Catholicism says keep Sunday instead.
The bible says keep the Feast Days, Catholicism keeps St (insert name) days instead and man made holidays instead.
The bible says Jesus was born around the Feast of Tabernacles, Catholicism says keep Christmas to celebrate Jesus birthday.
The bible says pray to the Father only only, Catholicism says you can pray to Mary.

Still, and as has been said before, these are mainly traditions. The issue is what's called "Holy Tradition," a doctrine-setting method that replaces the use of Scripture Alone.

This is just a short list and I could keep going on topics like The Pope, Purgatory, and other unbiblical doctrine from Catholicism.

That would be more to the point IMO.

 

[Chandler50]

The Catholic Church may have been handed down traditions from the beginning, but they changed everything to fit their doctrine afterwards.

The bible says keep Passover, Catholicism says keep Easter instead.
The bible says keep the Sabbath, Catholicism says keep Sunday instead.
The bible says keep the Feast Days, Catholicism keeps St (insert name) days instead and man made holidays instead.
The bible says Jesus was born around the Feast of Tabernacles, Catholicism says keep Christmas to celebrate Jesus birthday.
The bible says pray to the Father only only, Catholicism says you can pray to Mary.

This is just a short list and I could keep going on topics like The Pope, Purgatory, and other unbiblical doctrine from Catholicism. This is not a anti Catholic rant, but just pointing out that alot of what many in Catholicism think were traditions of Jesus passed down, were simply new traditions started by Rome and forced upon other who just went with it and dont have any biblical backing and at times goes 100% against scriptures.

Jesus and the apostles all taught from the Torah, so they did have writings to go by back then, although it wasnt called "The Bible". Everything was not oral and any traditions they had were based on scriptures, so God does have a standard in which we are to hold ourselves by.

Most of the traditions you cited in your first paragraph are not exclusive of Catholicism. Most Protestants follow those traditions as well.

Also, they did not just teach from the Torah. They are many times that they quote other books of the OT, to include the deuterocanonical books.

But your argument is mute as it pertains to advocating sola scriptura, because there are many books in the OT that Christ or the apostles did not explicitly reference. So how are we to know that they are inspired?

It is bcause the Catholic Church established the canon.

 

[Chandler50]

Still, and as has been said before, these are mainly traditions. The issue is what's called "Holy Tradition," a doctrine-setting method that replaces the use of Scripture Alone.


That would be more to the point IMO.

It does not replace the concept of scripture alone. That would infer that the concept of scripture alone came first, which obviously it did not because there was a 300 gap between Christ's ministry and biblical canonization. And more so still for the Bible to be sent to all churches.

Remember, the concept of sola scriptura is old, and was refuted as heresy since the beginning of Christianity. It wasn't until 500 years ago the heresy sprung up again, and resulted in an apostasy. Which you now adhere too.

 

[tulipbee]

Since God wants all men to be saved, then all should be regenerated, and then all should receive the faith to believe. Isn't that the logical outcome? Except it is an illusion (or to put it bluntly a delusion).

If God wants all to be saved then no one goes to hell. That's not in the bible. All, in most cases, means only the elects. Jesus died only for the elects. The unregenerated are never the elects. They are born as sinners and all mankind are that way till God converts them. Of course you won't pay attention but others reading this post might make note straight from God's Word, alone, without false Catholic traditions full of illusions:
Please consider that it is God who:
- draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65).
- creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10).
- appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48).
- works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).
- chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4).
- chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14).
- grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29).
- grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26).
- calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9).
- causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3).
- predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30).
- predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5).
- predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11).
- makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

It is man who:
- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

 

[Chandler50]

If God wants all to be save then no one goes to hell. That's not in the bible. All, in most cases, means only the elects. Jesus died only for the elects. The unregenerated are never the elects. They are born as sinners and all mankind are that way till God converts them. Of course you won't pay attention but other reading this point might make note straight from God's Word:
Please consider that it is God who:
- draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65).
- creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10).
- appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48).
- works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).
- chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4).
- chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14).
- grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29).
- grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26).
- calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9).
- causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3).
- predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30).
- predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5).
- predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11).
- makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

It is man who:
- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God knew that people like you would twist scripture, that is why he specified 'come to the knowledge of the truth' as well.

When God looks and acts like yourself, there is a problem.

 

[tulipbee]

And still does today through the church.

Bible being complete means just that, complete

 

[Standing Up]

Magisterium is lead by the Holy Spirit. By the way, have you found any teaching by the Mageisterium that is explicitly anti-biblical yet?

Again, everyone claims to be led by the Spirit. The point is for your it's your Magisterium that decides your religion. For others, it is bible-alone, or some combination of bible and a different Tradition. All led by the Spirit.

Some examples of anti-biblical doctrines were posted above. I'd add the Marian dogmas, the priest/laity division, and the sacrifice of bread/wine.

 

[tulipbee]

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God knew that people like you would twist scripture, that is why he specified 'come to the knowledge of the truth' as well.

When God looks and acts like yourself, there is a problem.

Scriptures can't be twisted

 

[Albion]

Scriptures can't be twisted

Ah, sure they can. The number of crazy interpretations that someone or other has teased out of some Bible verse is almost endless.

 

[tulipbee]

Most of the traditions you cited in your first paragraph are not exclusive of Catholicism. Most Protestants follow those traditions as well.

Also, they did not just teach from the Torah. They are many times that they quote other books of the OT, to include the deuterocanonical books.

But your argument is mute as it pertains to advocating sola scriptura, because there are many books in the OT that Christ or the apostles did not explicitly reference. So how are we to know that they are inspired?

It is bcause the Catholic Church established the canon.

It is Christian men that established the 66 books regardless of what offspring denomination they were in. The gospel spread like wildfire due to apostles proclaiming the gospel. Apostolic succession broke apart and spread rapidly and too fast and RCC lost focus while the orthodox tried to patch it up and lost track as well while the Protestants gain sharp focus on the gospel. While RCC lost profits and interests, they turn into a cult while 90% of Google search listed RCC them to be just another denomination like others

 

[Righttruth]

this is why sola scriptura cultivates so many skilled militant athiests who sound like christian theologians doing concept replacement therapy with the same logical formulas. Sola scriptura allows the flesh to control the phenomena through being right, being better than others, this is the pattern of the world, this is also why I don't look at sola scriptura as a godly idea.

Depending solely on Sola scriptura is book idolatry!

 

[Righttruth]

It is Christian men that established the 66 books regardless of what offspring denomination they were in. The gospel spread like wildfire due to apostles proclaiming the gospel. Apostolic succession broke apart and spread rapidly and too fast and RCC lost focus while the orthodox tried to patch it up and lost track as well while the Protestants gain sharp focus on the gospel. While RCC lost profits and interests, they turn into a cult while 90% of Google search listed RCC them to be just another denomination like others

Protestants believe in Judeo-No Gospel-Pauline Christianity!

 

[Righttruth]

Ah, sure they can. The number of crazy interpretations that someone or other has teased out of some Bible verse is almost endless.

That is why Peter said that Scripture is not for private interpretation. Furthermore, Scripture ended with the OT. Now is the Holy Spirit with writings available that will testify Jesus.

 

[Righttruth]

The bible also identifies the creation as a fail safe teaching all necessary things including the Godhead since the beginning of time. No bible? no problem! just pray .. the Master teaches in parables.

The significance of parables were explained to His chosen apostles. The rank outsider Paul had no notion of that!