Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Goatee]

Jesus / God, would never desert 'His' church. Why would he leave 'Men' to translate the Bible without the 'Holy Spirit'? Why would he leave people to think that they can use 'Sola Scripture' without the Holy Spirit?

Jesus left us 'His' church. If you believe in Sola Scripture you should believe that the Church was left in good hands!! Peter!! And his successors!!

 

[Chandler50]

No, humans use it to divide themselves from their brotheren. That is not the fault of The Bible, but of the ambitions of those who read it only to find fault in others.

I think Martin Luther had some greivances with the Catholic church that he posted on the door of a church, did he not?

How does the 95 thesis fall into this? It is a work of man. As is taking out the seven book inspired by God.

Apostasy is apostasy no matter how you slice it.

And you are right, it is humans who mess with the Bible. That is why Christ told us to bring our questions to the Church so this would not happen. When leave the Church Christ started, you end up with works of man.

 

[Albion]

Not to attack you, personally, but do you think that even 12 years of Catholic schooling would make you an expert?

Hard to say, but it's a lot better than the posters who are recent converts to Roman Catholicism, took some RCIA classes, and insist that they know everything about Catholicism, mainly because they think every Catholic knows more than any non-Catholic.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Do you seriously think that most differences of opinion over Bible passages owe to some believers deliberately coming up with a different meaning only in order to divide themselves from other Christians and not because they really believe their interpretations to be correct? Personally, i see no reason to think that's so.

I believe that there are those who think themselves more holy and have a better understanding of the scriptures and through their Chrismatic tallents has pulled their own followers from the rest of the pack in order to create sects that they can alter to fit their understanding of scripture. Tell me one denomination, sect or cult that has not accomplished this very thing?

I absolutely believe it's not the fault of the Bible.

GOOD!

Are you saying that he trumped something up simply to divide himself from other Christians??

Stop trying to manipulate what I've said and others can clearly read for themselves or I will not treat with you. I have no need to defend my words from those who twist them. I have only one entity to impress and that is not anyone who has to use a computer to read what is posted here. That includes you!

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

How does the 95 thesis fall into this? It is a work of man. As is taking out the seven book inspired by God.

Apostasy is apostasy no matter how you slice it.

And you are right, it is humans who mess with the Bible. That is why Christ told us to bring our questions to the Church so this would not happen. When leave the Church Christ started, you end up with works of man.

You brought up Martin Luther, so please don't ask my what I meant by including them in this thread.

As far as bringing questions to the Church, what Church do you mean. I have none because I've not yet found one that has not been tarnished by the sands of time and what the officials have allowed to come to pass within their walls.

 

[Chandler50]

Inmovable object strikes an unstoppable force. I guess God will have to set this streight since I don't place my salvation according to the understanding of men, no matter how well intensioned their attempts are.

Christ clearly said that the gates of hell would not prevail over His church. Singular, not plural. He started one church.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

The early Christians had no Bible or Pope. They went by the direct teachings of the Scriptures, however, through those who wrote them to their churches.

Sola Scriptura is not only sufficient, it's the original teachings. It's why the 16th century schism was called the Reformation, a return to what Catholicism completely abandoned and redefined over time.

Christ clearly said that the gates of hell would not prevail over His church. Singular, not plural. He started one church.

The gates of Hell prevailed the Roman Church right after it's declaration. A little something called the Dark Ages. Priests had become so shaken by the greediness and corruption that was taking over so swiftly that they invented Demonology to blame it on surrounding spirits.

And again, there's the Crusades. The infallible church couldn't lose, that's what they declared, and yet the only thing that happened was a whole lot of people died and no results were made.

Most of Catholic history is painted with blood, with only a handful of martyrs to account for little of it. Peter and the Christ are a whole lot different in the biblical account then whatever supposedly dwells among the papacy.

 

[Goatee]

The early Christians had no Bible or Pope. They went by the direct teachings of the Scriptures, however, through those who wrote them to their churches.

Sola Scriptura is not only sufficient, it's the original teachings. It's why the 16th century schism was called the Reformation, a return to what Catholicism completely abandoned and redefined over time.

Wrong. Peter was the first 'Pope'. The teachings were by the Apostles / Disciples 'And' Scripture. Most of it was the teaching of Our Lord Jesus Christ via word of mouth!!!

 

[Albion]

I believe that there are those who think themselves more holy and have a better understanding of the scriptures and through their Chrismatic tallents has pulled their own followers from the rest of the pack in order to create sects that they can alter to fit their understanding of scripture. Tell me one denomination, sect or cult that has not accomplished this very thing?

That's somewhat a different scenario than the one I replied to before. And I wasn't aware that you were referring only to founders of religious denominations.

Stop trying to manipulate what I've said and others can clearly read for themselves or I will not treat with you.

Great. If you cannot be consistent and clear, and won't reply to requests for clarifications of what you wrote, I'd just as soon not discuss with you.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Christ clearly said that the gates of hell would not prevail over His church. Singular, not plural. He started one church.

Yes, but did those who inherited it honor that. God himself begain the tradiction of temples in the desert after he allowed Moses to lead the children of Israel from Egypt. How many times from the time of it's creation down to the time it's walls were rent with the death of Jesus was it defiled by those put in to care for it? Aron, himself, the first high preist did not even make it to the promised land.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

That's somewhat a different scenario than the one I replied to before. And I wasn't aware that you were referring only to founders of religious denominations.[/quot] What others are there? Demoninations have to begin somewhere and someone has to instruct those who follow as to what they are to belives.


quote]Stop trying to manipulate what I've said and others can clearly read for themselves or I will not treat with you.

Great. If you cannot be consistent and clear, and won't reply to requests for clarifications of what you wrote, I'd just as soon not discuss with you.

I was crystal clear in what I posted and you tried to throw in a red herring by atributing evil where I did not in any way discribe. As I've said, I will not be polaced on the defensive for something I never stated.

 

[Chandler50]

The early Christians had no Bible or Pope. They went by the direct teachings of the Scriptures, however, through those who wrote them to their churches.

Sola Scriptura is not only sufficient, it's the original teachings. It's why the 16th century schism was called the Reformation, a return to what Catholicism completely abandoned and redefined over time.



The gates of Hell prevailed the Roman Church right after it's declaration. A little something called the Dark Ages. Priests had become so shaken by the greediness and corruption that was taking over so swiftly that they invented Demonology to blame it on surrounding spirits.

And again, there's the Crusades. The infallible church couldn't lose, that's what they declared, and yet the only thing that happened was a whole lot of people died and no results were made.

Most of Catholic history is painted with blood, with only a handful of martyrs to account for little of it. Peter and the Christ are a whole lot different in the biblical account then whatever supposedly dwells among the papacy.

What 'scriptures' are you referring to that the followers of Christ used? Surely you do not mean the OT? Because if I remember correctly, the apostles converted more then just the Jews. Greeks would not have used the OT, they would have followed the traditions taught to them by Paul or the other apostles.

 

[Job8]

Jesus died only for the elects.

That is a distortion of the truth. Do you prefer the truth over distortions of the truth? All your Scripture references mean nothing when you avoid all the references that plainly state that the Lamb of God took away THE SIN OF THE WORLD.

 

[Chandler50]

Great. If you cannot be consistent and clear, and won't reply to requests for clarifications of what you wrote, I'd just as soon not discuss with you.

.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I have called out many people on this thread for red-herrings. It is a weak, and a sign that you have no evidence to support your claim.

 

[Chandler50]

That is a distortion of the truth. Do you prefer the truth over distortions of the truth? All your Scripture references mean nothing when you avoid all the references that plainly state that the Lamb of God took away THE SIN OF THE WORLD.

Agreed. Christ died for everyone. If you think that God would create people explicitly to be damned, then you must have a lot of hate built up inside of you. Because that is not what Christ taught.

 

[tulipbee]

That is a distortion of the truth. Do you prefer the truth over distortions of the truth? All your Scripture references mean nothing when you avoid all the references that plainly state that the Lamb of God took away THE SIN OF THE WORLD.

Jesus knew who would not believe ahead of time. He does need to waste time. That's why He is busy saving His children.

 

[Goatee]

Jesus Gave instructions in the NT. Its a pity that so many people have jumped ship or go on a different path!

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Yes, I have called out many people on this thread for red-herrings. It is a weak, and a sign that you have no evidence to support your claim.

I thank you for that. When you find one that I have placed here please bring my attention to it, but also attach the text of what I was responding to so that the true culprate can be identified and not one that either of us would deceptively favor.

 

[tulipbee]

There are no legitimate 'denominations'. There is the Catholic (universal) Church started by Christ. Everything else is an apostasy.

Protestants are included cause the Holy Spirit also moves them.

 

[Chandler50]

Yes, but did those who inherited it honor that. God himself begain the tradiction of temples in the desert after he allowed Moses to lead the children of Israel from Egypt. How many times from the time of it's creation down to the time it's walls were rent with the death of Jesus was it defiled by those put in to care for it? Aron, himself, the first high preist did not even make it to the promised land.

How could they not? Christ said that hell would not prevail. Plain and simple. Man may sin and fail, but Christ' church cannot.