Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Goatee]

Funny, how you can find anything on the internet, eh? Now if you had of quoted a SDA publication showing what you did, then you might have something.

You are busted buddy! lol

After all your criticism of the Catholic faith and how they see scripture and all the time your church uses a Bible that is not truly Christian! One it developed itself!!

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Check out point no:3 in the link you submitted:

3-Free paraphrase: Paraphrases take great liberty with the biblical text and seek to convey the meaning of the author using contemporary phrases and metaphors. The best-known paraphrases are The Clear Word (Clear Word), The Living Bible (TLB), and The Message (Message).

Seventh Day Adventist Bible!! https://carm.org/clear-word-bible

Yes, I seen that... what is wrong in this article of the author responding to the query by showing all that is available but recommending which ones should be used.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

You are busted buddy! lol

After all your criticism of the Catholic faith and how they see scripture and all the time your church uses a Bible that is not truly Christian! One it developed itself!!

In case you missed it... that piece of trash was first published in 1994. Hardly a Bible that the pioneers used in their understanding and proclaiming the truth...

I guess your guys missed having a version of their own like the Douay, so they came up with this filth for our denom.

 

[Goatee]

Yes, I seen that... what is wrong in this article of the author responding to the query by showing all that is available but recommending which ones should be used.

Yes and The Clear Word is not a true Bible as we all now know.

Look, the reason i have brought this up is you see it fit to come on here and massively criticise the Catholic stance on Scripture / Bible and all the while your 'Church' is so messed up from the very start which makes your views on Catholics so hypocritical!! I cannot believe you have had the nerve to 'slag' us off when you have all this nonsense in your own church! Using / recommending a 'Bible' that is not a 'real' Bible plus all the other points in the links quoted!

You were coming across as if your church knows best and your interpretations are the only correct ones! Lol on that now after seeing what type of Bible your church invented and recommends!!! Plus your beliefs!! Phew!!

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Make no mistake, the truths I stand upon were given and received 100+ years ago by the pioneers of our faith. What the 'church' has done in the meantime (and I know more of it than you probably ever will) does not represent the writings of Ellen White, nor the fundamental truths we adhere to... barking up the wrong tree Fido. I am a traditional Adventist, not a progressive (read: regressive)

 

[thecolorsblend]

Make no mistake, the truths I stand upon were given and received 100+ years ago by the pioneers of our faith.

Impressive.

The ones I stand on were given and received 2,000 years ago.

 

[Goatee]

Make no mistake, the truths I stand upon were given and received 100+ years ago by the pioneers of our faith. What the 'church' has done in the meantime (and I know more of it than you probably ever will) does not represent the writings of Ellen White, nor the fundamental truths we adhere to... barking up the wrong tree Fido. I am a traditional Adventist, not a progressive (read: regressive)

Pioneers!! https://carm.org/seventh-day-adventism

Found out who you are and what your church stands for has really opened my eyes buddy. How you have the nerve to quote what you do is beyond me! And you go on about the Catholic church and its past!! lol lol lol

Plus, as least we use a genuine Bible not the 'Clear Word' you guys invented!!

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Yes and The Clear Word is not a true Bible as we all now know.

100% agree...

Look, the reason i have brought this up is you see it fit to come on here and massively criticise the Catholic stance on Scripture / Bible and all the while your 'Church' is so messed up from the very start which makes your views on Catholics so hypocritical!! I cannot believe you have had the nerve to 'slag' us off when you have all this nonsense in your own church! Using / recommending a 'Bible' that is not a 'real' Bible plus all the other points in the links quoted!

In case you missed it, I have only ever quoted from the KJV... and have used scripture to show the error what the papacy teaches

You were coming across as if your church knows best and your interpretations are the only correct ones! Lol on that now after seeing what type of Bible your church invented and recommends!!! Plus your beliefs!! Phew!![/QUOTE]

The pioneer understanding is sure, make no mistake. The apostate organisation that is now masquerading as SDA, I don't recognize.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Pioneers!! https://carm.org/seventh-day-adventism

Found out who you are and what your church stands for has really opened my eyes buddy. How you have the nerve to quote what you do is beyond me! And you go on about the Catholic church and its past!! lol lol lol

Plus, as least we use a genuine Bible not the 'Clear Word' you guys invented!!

Well to be fair, we don't have the blood of millions on our hands (corporately) nor do we flaunt riches and extravagance that shows nothing of the meek humble lowly Spirit our Saviour commended us to have.

When I look at your organisation, I don't see Christ... just the opposite in fact.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Hi BobRyan,
I don't see that. Do you know what is the Catholic understanding of "temporal punishment"?

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, an indulgence is “the remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sin whose guilt has already been forgiven. A properly disposed member of the Christian faithful can obtain an indulgence under prescribed conditions through the help of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints. An indulgence is partial if it removes part of the temporal punishment due to sin, or plenary if it removes all punishment.”

Understanding the Catholic definitions is very important in understanding this issue: Eternal Punishment: “the penalty for unrepented mortal sin, separating the sinner from communion with God for all eternity; the condemnation of the unrepentant sinner to hell.” Temporal Punishment: “purification of the unhealthy attachment to creatures, which is a consequence of sin that perdures even after death. We must be purified either during our earthly life through prayer and a conversion which comes from fervent charity, or after death in purgatory.” Purgatory: “a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.”

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that sin has a double consequence. For a member of the Catholic Church, committing a mortal sin causes “eternal punishment,” involving eternal separation from God and suffering in hell. (The Catholic Church also teaches that under normal circumstances those who have not been baptized by either the Roman Catholic Church or another church teaching baptismal regeneration are also condemned to hell because the stain of original sin remains upon their souls.) Venial (minor) sin, in contrast, does not cause “eternal punishment” but does cause “temporal punishment.” Roman Catholic teachings sometimes refer to these “temporal punishments” given by God as a means of purifying His children (either in this life or in Purgatory). But the Roman Catholic Church also sees venial sins as creating a debt to God’s justice that must be atoned for in a way that is distinct from Christ’s atonement for eternal punishment. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that because of the unity of the Body of Christ (the Communion of the Saints, including living believers, believers in heaven, Roman Catholic saints in heaven, Christ, Mary, and the imperfect believers in Purgatory), it is possible for the merit generated by the good works, prayers, almsgiving, sufferings, etc., of one or more of these members of the Body to be applied to the temporal debt of another. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the combined merit of Christ, the saints, and godly believers is stored in a place referred to as the Treasury of Merit (it is also sometimes called the Treasury of Satisfaction, the Church’s Treasury, or the Thesaurus Ecclesiae). And through apostolic succession from Peter, it is the Roman Catholic Church alone that has the authority to withdraw merit from this treasury and dispense it to believers in this life or in Purgatory to atone for some or all of their venial sin. This it does through the granting of Catholic indulgences.

Again, indulgences pertain only to temporal, not eternal, punishment and can only be distributed through a Roman Catholic Church leader to someone who is either in Purgatory or is still living and whose soul is in the state of sanctifying grace (i.e., he/she would go to Purgatory, not hell, if he/she were to die at that moment). An indulgence can be obtained through a good deed done, a Mass being offered on behalf of someone, prayer, abstinence, giving to the poor, or some other meritorious act performed in accordance with requirements set by a Pope or bishop having jurisdiction over that individual. The offering of a Mass for someone is seen as one of the most effective means of reducing the temporal punishment of that person in Purgatory. A partial indulgence will reduce the temporal punishment a person has. A plenary indulgence will remove all temporal punishment.

But the question is, is it biblically justified?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

100% agree...



In case you missed it, I have only ever quoted from the KJV... and have used scripture to show the error what the papacy teaches

You were coming across as if your church knows best and your interpretations are the only correct ones! Lol on that now after seeing what type of Bible your church invented and recommends!!! Plus your beliefs!! Phew!!

The pioneer understanding is sure, make no mistake. The apostate organisation that is now masquerading as SDA, I don't recognize.

I remember when I was a Catholic. I truly believed my church was the one true church. Used to look down on other Christians because they weren't Catholic. I really believed protestants to be inferior. It is interesting when you compare how Jews viewed Jesus and Christians with such discontent. It is not that much different.

 

[patricius79]

Bingo. Sin is a multi-pronged thing. The consequences are anything but exclusively eternal. If you shoplift, you've broken God's commandment and you've broken man's law. God can forgive you for breaking His commandment but there are still temporal consequences to your sin. The police must do something.

If someone commits adultery behind his wife's back, he can ask for and receive God's forgiveness. But there's still the fact that he sinned against his wife. And even after he confesses his sin and she forgives him, the guilt of what he did may always be with him. It isn't good for your soul to sin. Being forgiven of the eternal consequences of your sin doesn't magically remove the stain of sin from your soul.

Again, you're trying to limit the discussion only to the eternal consequences of sin, as though that's the only thing that matters. It is most important, to be sure, but it's not the only factor at play.

I agree that there are temporal punishments for sin. These punishments are disordered attachments to creatures. For example, the man who cheats on his wife can be forgiven through the Sacrament of Confession. The guilt is then completely gone. As I understand it, what remains is the disordered attachment to sexual sin. This can be removed in various ways through doing our penance (as prescribed the priest), prayer to Jesus through Mary, and through indulgences, and through the Feast of Divine Mercy (1st Sunday after Easter). Of course the man who cheats on his wife also has to deal with the response of his wife to what he has done. But with God's grace, he can realize that the only thing he can control is himself and his relationship with God.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, an indulgence is “the remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sin whose guilt has already been forgiven. A properly disposed member of the Christian faithful can obtain an indulgence under prescribed conditions through the help of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints. An indulgence is partial if it removes part of the temporal punishment due to sin, or plenary if it removes all punishment.”

Understanding the Catholic definitions is very important in understanding this issue: Eternal Punishment: “the penalty for unrepented mortal sin, separating the sinner from communion with God for all eternity; the condemnation of the unrepentant sinner to hell.” Temporal Punishment: “purification of the unhealthy attachment to creatures, which is a consequence of sin that perdures even after death. We must be purified either during our earthly life through prayer and a conversion which comes from fervent charity, or after death in purgatory.” Purgatory: “a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.”

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that sin has a double consequence. For a member of the Catholic Church, committing a mortal sin causes “eternal punishment,” involving eternal separation from God and suffering in hell. (The Catholic Church also teaches that under normal circumstances those who have not been baptized by either the Roman Catholic Church or another church teaching baptismal regeneration are also condemned to hell because the stain of original sin remains upon their souls.) Venial (minor) sin, in contrast, does not cause “eternal punishment” but does cause “temporal punishment.” Roman Catholic teachings sometimes refer to these “temporal punishments” given by God as a means of purifying His children (either in this life or in Purgatory). But the Roman Catholic Church also sees venial sins as creating a debt to God’s justice that must be atoned for in a way that is distinct from Christ’s atonement for eternal punishment. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that because of the unity of the Body of Christ (the Communion of the Saints, including living believers, believers in heaven, Roman Catholic saints in heaven, Christ, Mary, and the imperfect believers in Purgatory), it is possible for the merit generated by the good works, prayers, almsgiving, sufferings, etc., of one or more of these members of the Body to be applied to the temporal debt of another. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the combined merit of Christ, the saints, and godly believers is stored in a place referred to as the Treasury of Merit (it is also sometimes called the Treasury of Satisfaction, the Church’s Treasury, or the Thesaurus Ecclesiae). And through apostolic succession from Peter, it is the Roman Catholic Church alone that has the authority to withdraw merit from this treasury and dispense it to believers in this life or in Purgatory to atone for some or all of their venial sin. This it does through the granting of Catholic indulgences.

Again, indulgences pertain only to temporal, not eternal, punishment and can only be distributed through a Roman Catholic Church leader to someone who is either in Purgatory or is still living and whose soul is in the state of sanctifying grace (i.e., he/she would go to Purgatory, not hell, if he/she were to die at that moment). An indulgence can be obtained through a good deed done, a Mass being offered on behalf of someone, prayer, abstinence, giving to the poor, or some other meritorious act performed in accordance with requirements set by a Pope or bishop having jurisdiction over that individual. The offering of a Mass for someone is seen as one of the most effective means of reducing the temporal punishment of that person in Purgatory. A partial indulgence will reduce the temporal punishment a person has. A plenary indulgence will remove all temporal punishment.

But the question is, is it biblically justified?

This ones tradition all the way...

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

This ones tradition all the way...

Various Roman Catholic Church doctrines are derived from tradition rather than from Scripture. And as the Roman Catholic Church sees their tradition as consistent with Scripture and equal to Scripture in authority, this is not an issue with them. But to most other Christian groups, the Bible alone is the source of authority and is more than sufficient in supplying Christians with all the resources they need to know and serve Christ as God intended (2 Timothy 3:15-17; Acts 20:32). But because the Roman Catholic Church states that its doctrines are not contradictory to Scripture and accepts Scripture as part of its authority, it is appropriate for both groups to ask, “Are indulgences biblical?”

An examination of the passages the Roman Catholic Church uses to support such doctrines as temporal punishment, vicarious atonement by fellow believers and saints, and Purgatory illustrates the Catholic reliance on tradition above and beyond Scripture. Other doctrines, such as the Treasury of Merit, the “pristine and unfathomable merit of Mary,” the “superabundant merit of the saints,” and the existence of indulgences, are foreign to Scripture altogether! Is the doctrine of indulgences scriptural? A consistent and contextual interpretation of Scripture will neither support the teaching of indulgences nor the doctrines it is built upon.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The Roman Catholic Church cites a few passages for their scriptural support of Purgatory. In addition to a passage from the apocryphal 2 Maccabees, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15; Matthew 5:26; and Matthew 12:32 are also given as scriptural support. Matthew 5:26 is part of a parable on the issue of forgiveness. Matthew 12:32 is addressing the issue of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Neither passage focuses upon what happens after death nor gives a clear teaching of what takes place after death. It is a principle of hermeneutics (the study of how to rightly interpret Scripture) that one should interpret “unclear” passages that merely touch on an issue by passages that focus on that issue or are clear about that issue. To interpret these verses as teaching that there is a place of further atoning and purifying in Purgatory after death flies in the face of many clear statements in the Bible that there are only two places that one will end up in after death: either in heaven with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) or in hell in torment (Luke 16:23-24; Revelation. 20:10-15). The Bible does not say that after death comes "further purification"; it says, "It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:28).

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Catholics speak of “doing penance” for their sins. At the end of confession to a priest, the confessor is given certain things to do (such as certain prayers to pray) that are a part of “doing penance.” Part of the purpose of this penance is to bring about a returning of one’s disposition away from sin and back toward God. But another purpose mentioned repeatedly in Roman Catholic literature is that of paying or atoning for one’s sins. This is not the same as making restitution to those hurt by one’s sin, but rather involves making a payment toward the temporal punishment to satisfy God’s justice. This latter purpose is closely tied to the idea of indulgences and is not mentioned in Scripture. The Bible does speak of repentance, referring to a “change of mind about one’s sin that results in a change in behavior.” John the Baptist’s ministry and teaching is summarized in Luke 3:3-18. He told those that were baptized by him (their baptism being a sign of their repentance) to show by their deeds that their repentance was real. But never is there the message of “you must pay or atone for your sins by doing some good deed or by abstinence,” or by anything else. By this call to good works, John was essentially saying, “Show me your repentance is genuine by your works” (cf. James 2:18). But again, the idea of “doing penance” as an atoning for our sins or a repaying of a temporal debt to God’s justice is never mentioned in Scripture!

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The doctrine of the “Treasury of the Church” was first officially expressed in 1343 by Pope Clement VI. He describes this treasury as not only consisting of the merits of Christ’s atonement but also “the merits (atonements) of Mary, the Mother of God, and of all the chosen, from the greatest to the least of the just, contribute to the increase of the treasure from which the Church draws in order to secure remission of temporal punishment.”

The Bible never once refers to anything like the “Treasury of Merit,” and never is there the thought that atonement can be made by one believer for the sake of another’s sin. Paul expresses that, if it were possible, he would sincerely be willing to be accursed, if that would mean the redemption of his fellow Israelites in Romans 9 and 10. But that is not possible because Paul and the other writers of Scripture state that, for a believer, the just Judge was satisfied when Jesus Christ became the atonement (propitiation) for our sins and that apart from Him there is no atonement (Isaiah 53:6; Romans 5:10-11; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 2:2; Hebrews 10:1-18). Never is there any hint of the idea of vicarious atonement by believers, either alive or dead, for the sake of their fellow believers. The Roman Catholic Church may make a distinction between atoning for people’s eternal punishment and their temporal punishment, but the idea of anyone other than Christ atoning for anyone’s sin and its corresponding punishment is never found in Scripture. Never is there any teaching about the “superabundant satisfactions of the Saints” or that the prayers and good works of Mary “are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God.” In Scripture, there is only the unfathomable and infinite value of Christ’s atonement…period.

 

[Goatee]

The doctrine of the “Treasury of the Church” was first officially expressed in 1343 by Pope Clement VI. He describes this treasury as not only consisting of the merits of Christ’s atonement but also “the merits (atonements) of Mary, the Mother of God, and of all the chosen, from the greatest to the least of the just, contribute to the increase of the treasure from which the Church draws in order to secure remission of temporal punishment.”

The Bible never once refers to anything like the “Treasury of Merit,” and never is there the thought that atonement can be made by one believer for the sake of another’s sin. Paul expresses that, if it were possible, he would sincerely be willing to be accursed, if that would mean the redemption of his fellow Israelites in Romans 9 and 10. But that is not possible because Paul and the other writers of Scripture state that, for a believer, the just Judge was satisfied when Jesus Christ became the atonement (propitiation) for our sins and that apart from Him there is no atonement (Isaiah 53:6; Romans 5:10-11; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 2:2; Hebrews 10:1-18). Never is there any hint of the idea of vicarious atonement by believers, either alive or dead, for the sake of their fellow believers. The Roman Catholic Church may make a distinction between atoning for people’s eternal punishment and their temporal punishment, but the idea of anyone other than Christ atoning for anyone’s sin and its corresponding punishment is never found in Scripture. Never is there any teaching about the “superabundant satisfactions of the Saints” or that the prayers and good works of Mary “are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God.” In Scripture, there is only the unfathomable and infinite value of Christ’s atonement…period.

Jason, you are non-denominational? Where do you stand then?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Jason, you are non-denominational? Where do you stand then?

Obviously not in your camp...

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Jason, you are non-denominational? Where do you stand then?

In regard to the thread topic. I wouldn't necessarily say I believe in Sola scriptura. I agree with the Catholic Church church, Mormons, and many other denominations that God still has the capabity of revealing his word through his holy spirit. However, I have to believe that God is all knowing, constant, and perfect. If these qualities are true, God would never change his mind and his word never changes. So I use the written scripture as a foundation to determine if information is coming truly from the Holy Spirit.