Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[EastCoastRemnant]

Well, that's not very specific but I guess it's good enough.

With respect, my gripe with certain types of Protestantism is that it is simplistic to the point of being reductionist. You sin, you ask forgiveness, you move on, that's the end of it.

Um, no. That's not the end of it.

If a small boy smashes out his neighbor's window, the neighbor can decide to forgive. And is that the end of it? The boy has forgiveness. Can he move on?

No, the window is still smashed out. What happens with that?

So the boy agrees to mow lawns all summer until he's saved up enough money to pay the neighbor back for the cost of the window. Is it over now?

No, of course not. How does the neighbor know the boy won't do the same thing again later on? The boy genuinely promises from his heart that he won't do this again. So NOW it's settled.

Sin is analogous to that. If you sin, you can seek forgiveness from God. And He is gracious and just to forgive.

But that's not the end of the story. Logically it can't be. There's still the effects of your sin. Sure, you've been forgiven for sinning. But the harm you caused lingers.

Now, in life you can address this with Confession and acts of penitence to purify your soul. You've already been forgiven. But there are disciplines (purifications one might say) to be addressed.

The above story of the little boy in trouble is missing one important element... let's do an edit on it to see how different it is.

Little boy throws rock and breaks window (sins), then is confronted with his deed (conviction) and genuinely is sorry and repents of it... here is the part you missed.. then a kind benevolent man steps in and says "I will take responsibility for that and make whatever amends that need to be made... little boy, go and sin no more" Then the little boy goes and helps out his neighbour out of the kindness in his heart that was shown him by the kind benevolent man. No more punishment is necessary for the boy, right?

Another angle... when you go to court, charged with a crime and the verdict comes up 'not guilty', do you still have to do something to atone for that crime you were accused of? What if the reason you were found not guilty was because of someone stepping in and pleading guilty on your behalf? Would you need to do anything to atone for that persons act? No doubt you would do anything you could for that person but not as a condition of the crime you were charged with but out of the gratitude and love in your heart for someone that selflessly offered himself in your place.

 

[patricius79]

The fiction of indulgences is based on the concept of a "spiritual bank of suffering" where saints and also Christ put into the bank all the "excess suffering" that they did not deserve. .

Hi BobRyan,
I don't see that. Do you know what is the Catholic understanding of "temporal punishment"?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Hi BobRyan,
I don't see that. Do you know what is the Catholic understanding of "temporal punishment"?

See my post above that shows the idea of 'extra punishment' does not fit in with the model of Christ's gift of salvation.

 

[patricius79]

See my post above that shows the idea of 'extra punishment' does not fit in with the model of Christ's gift of salvation.

I read your post. I think it's important to first understand what the Church means by "temporal punishment". Do you know what the Church means?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I read your post. I think it's important to first understand what the Church means by "temporal punishment". Do you know what the Church means?

I think the better question is... do I care?

 

[Goatee]

I think the better question is... do I care?

You must care as you do seem to mention Catholic beliefs at every turn. Quote about your faith:

Unfortunately, this one tolerant statement is embedded in hundreds of hostile statements. While this. aspect of her teaching can be played up by her more moderate followers, it is difficult for them to do so, because the whole Adventist milieu in which they exist is anti-Catholic. The group is an eschatology sect, and its central eschatological teaching, other than Christ’s Second Coming, is that the Second Coming will be preceded by a period in which the papacy will enforce Sunday worship on the world. Everyone who does not accept the papacy’s Sunday worship will be killed; and everyone who does accept the papacy’s Sunday worship will be destroyed by God.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

You must care as you do seem to mention Catholic beliefs at every turn. Quote about your faith:

Unfortunately, this one tolerant statement is embedded in hundreds of hostile statements. While this. aspect of her teaching can be played up by her more moderate followers, it is difficult for them to do so, because the whole Adventist milieu in which they exist is anti-Catholic. The group is an eschatology sect, and its central eschatological teaching, other than Christ’s Second Coming, is that the Second Coming will be preceded by a period in which the papacy will enforce Sunday worship on the world. Everyone who does not accept the papacy’s Sunday worship will be killed; and everyone who does accept the papacy’s Sunday worship will be destroyed by God.

Not sure what your point is Captain Obvious. I don't care what your church teaches... what I care about is warning people away from it as I am told to in Rev 14...

 

[Goatee]

Not sure what your point is Captain Obvious. I don't care what your church teaches... what I care about is warning people away from it as I am told to in Rev 14...

But on one hand you say you dont care and then on the other you seem as though you do care when you have to bring up Catholic hatred at every turn?

 

[thecolorsblend]

The above story of the little boy in trouble is missing one important element... let's do an edit on it to see how different it is.

Little boy throws rock and breaks window (sins), then is confronted with his deed (conviction) and genuinely is sorry and repents of it... here is the part you missed.. then a kind benevolent man steps in and says "I will take responsibility for that and make whatever amends that need to be made... little boy, go and sin no more" Then the little boy goes and helps out his neighbour out of the kindness in his heart that was shown him by the kind benevolent man. No more punishment is necessary for the boy, right?

Your two analogies are significant for missing the entire point of my post. It isn't that I "missed" something. It's that you seem to only recognize the eternal consequence of sin (eg, hell) rather than the temporal consequence (eg, suffering). Because of that, you have to evangelicalize a perfectly useful analogy to suit your warped, limited understanding of sin.

In case I'm being in any way unclear, the eternal consequences of sin have been taken care of by Our Lord and His sacrifice. Nothing can be added to that.

However, that still leaves the temporal consequences of sin on the table which must be addressed by purification either in this life or in Purgatory.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

But on one hand you say you dont care and then on the other you seem as though you do care when you have to bring up Catholic hatred at every turn?

Think of it as papal hatred... you guys, I actually do care about.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Your two analogies are significant for missing the entire point of my post. It isn't that I "missed" something. It's that you seem to only recognize the eternal consequence of sin (eg, hell) rather than the temporal consequence (eg, suffering). Because of that, you have to evangelicalize a perfectly useful analogy to suit your warped, limited understanding of sin.

In case I'm being in any way unclear, the eternal consequences of sin have been taken care of by Our Lord and His sacrifice. Nothing can be added to that.

However, that still leaves the temporal consequences of sin on the table which must be addressed by purification either in this life or in Purgatory.

You are being completely clear in you misunderstanding of the gift of Salvation and of Grace... it's simple, if someone (Christ) steps in to take your place of guilt, then ALL that is associated with that guilt (spiritually) is bore by him. Am I saying that there are no temporal consequences for my sins, of course, but these are temporal, not eternal.

Are you saying that if I commit adultery, and repent and ask God and my wife for forgiveness, that, even though I am completely forgiven by God and the memory of it is remembered no more by Him, that because my wife doesn't forgive and we end up divorced, that I have to pay for that after I'm dead? To me, if that is your contention, your idea of purgatory is the trials and tribulations here on earth.

 

[Goatee]

Which Bible do you use Eastcoastremnant? The Seventh Day Adventist one:

http://www.clearwordexposed.com/

Looks like the truth is out about your church buddy. And you criticise the Catholic church!!!

 

[thecolorsblend]

You are being completely clear in you misunderstanding of the gift of Salvation and of Grace... it's simple, if someone (Christ) steps in to take your place of guilt, then ALL that is associated with that guilt (spiritually) is bore by him. Am I saying that there are no temporal consequences for my sins, of course, but these are temporal, not eternal.

Are you saying that if I commit adultery, and repent and ask God and my wife for forgiveness, that, even though I am completely forgiven by God and the memory of it is remembered no more by Him, that because my wife doesn't forgive and we end up divorced, that I have to pay for that after I'm dead? To me, if that is your contention, your idea of purgatory is the trials and tribulations here on earth.

Bingo. Sin is a multi-pronged thing. The consequences are anything but exclusively eternal. If you shoplift, you've broken God's commandment and you've broken man's law. God can forgive you for breaking His commandment but there are still temporal consequences to your sin. The police must do something.

If someone commits adultery behind his wife's back, he can ask for and receive God's forgiveness. But there's still the fact that he sinned against his wife. And even after he confesses his sin and she forgives him, the guilt of what he did may always be with him. It isn't good for your soul to sin. Being forgiven of the eternal consequences of your sin doesn't magically remove the stain of sin from your soul.

Again, you're trying to limit the discussion only to the eternal consequences of sin, as though that's the only thing that matters. It is most important, to be sure, but it's not the only factor at play.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Which Bible do you use Eastcoastremnant? The Seventh Day Adventist one:

http://www.clearwordexposed.com/

Looks like the truth is out about your church buddy. And you criticise the Catholic church!!!

KJV babee!

Just because my church, along with the rest of Christendom, has apostatized, and has allowed Jesuit influence to come in and sow tares, doesn't reflect on the message we have been given to proclaim. Here's a hint... God's last day church is called a remnant for a reason... they are not 15 million strong (SDA), they are definitely not over 1 billion strong. If you think church represents the narrow gate that few find, then I guess you are on your own.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Being forgiven of the eternal consequences of your sin doesn't magically remove the stain of sin from your soul.

Are you going to stand on this statement?

 

[Goatee]

Not my Bible... guess you got another one wrong.

Also, not the Bible of our faithful...

Looks like its the Bible of your 'church' You cannot hide that buddy.

And theres you spouting massive criticism against the Catholic church when your 'Church' has stacks of wrong doings and its own 'altered' Bible!! lol

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/clear_word.htm

https://www.adventist.org/en/spirituality/bible-study/article/go/-/choosing-a-bible-translation/

Quote:

3-Free paraphrase: Paraphrases take great liberty with the biblical text and seek to convey the meaning of the author using contemporary phrases and metaphors. The best-known paraphrases are The Clear Word (Clear Word), The Living Bible (TLB), and The Message (Message).

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Here's a statement from the SDA official record the Review from 2010

https://www.adventist.org/en/spirituality/bible-study/article/go/-/choosing-a-bible-translation/

Clearly, there are substantial differences between the different translations. The old saying that one Bible is as good as another simply does not hold true. With this in mind, it is my belief that Christians are best off using an essentially literal translation, particularly for in-depth study and public reading. Since all Scripture is inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16), we should seek to read translations that reflect the Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek words to the greatest degree possible. Jesus Himself said, “not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law” (Matt. 5:18, ESV), and we should be cautious about translations that alter the inspired Word of God.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Are you going to stand on this statement?

What I said is consistent with the teachings of the Church:

The punishments of sin
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

 

[Goatee]

Here's a statement from the SDA official record the Review from 2010

https://www.adventist.org/en/spirituality/bible-study/article/go/-/choosing-a-bible-translation/

Check out point no:3 in the link you submitted:

3-Free paraphrase: Paraphrases take great liberty with the biblical text and seek to convey the meaning of the author using contemporary phrases and metaphors. The best-known paraphrases are The Clear Word (Clear Word), The Living Bible (TLB), and The Message (Message).

Seventh Day Adventist Bible!! https://carm.org/clear-word-bible

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Funny, how you can find anything on the internet, eh? Now if you had of quoted a SDA publication showing what you did, then you might have something.