Refuting OSAS in jesus name

[EmSw]

I said this:
"The context in that verse is physical death. Not eternal death.

This speaks of physical death as discipline for turning from righteousness."

FG2, everyone will die a physical death. This is nothing new. Is everyone being disciplined by God, and must die a physical death?

The wages of sin is death, Paul says. Is this a physical death also?

Romans 6 -
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

If you sin, you are the slave to sin, resulting in death - physical or eternal?

If someone obeys, it is obvious they do not die - physical or eternal?

lol. Why would one think that every reference to "death" means eternal death? That only reveals the lack of understanding of Scripture.

Why would one think every reference to life is eternal life?

Read 1 Jn 5:16. Read 1 Cor 11:30. These are about God's divine discipline which included physical death. And don't expect such a death to be necessarily quick or painless.

Again, is everyone disciplined by God?

If one interprets the wrong type of death to any passage, one will come up very short.

Better listen to your own advice.

This passage is speaking of dying as a direct result of his choices. This is about physical death, whether one understands that or not.

Why would a person physically die if they make the right choices? God said they will live and not die.

The sin unto death is dying before you would have if you had not made those wrong choices. Such as 1 Cor 11:30. Or the entire first generation of the Exodus. None of them, except Joshua and Caleb made it to the promised land. The rest, including Moses, died and didn't receive the promise because of their disobedience. If one wants to argue that Moses went to hell, that would be a pretty silly argument, I think.

So, Joshua and Caleb didn't die physically. I see where your arguments lead. I think I saw Joshua at the mall the other day; he sure looked old.

Except for the rapture generation and the few men in the OT, everyone will die physically, thanks to Adam. However, the issue here is an early disciplinary death based on disobedience. We see this graphically in 1 Cor 5:5 where Paul described how the incestuous man would die (destruction of the flesh at the hand of Satan) for his sins. Yet we know that, just like the Eze 18 passage, he repented and lived. His flesh wasn't destroyed by Satan.

How is an early physical death a disciplinary action? Who would not want to pass on to the other side?

Should I disobey so I can be with Jesus quicker?

This is nonsense. I'm happy to support what the Bible SAYS.

Maybe you can give us passages which speak of eternal death. I'm thinking it will also be associated with sin.

What does really fall on its face is the one who fails to understand the meaning of the "sin unto death".

As I said before, physical death is only a passing to the other side, which is much more blissful than here. How is this dreadful to a believer?

Is physical death something to be feared by a believer?

 

[EmSw]

They never had faith in the true doctrine of salvation, thus they are not saved. Departing from the faith 'true doctrine', giving heed to the deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons 'false doctrine.'

You can't depart from something you never possessed.

 

[seekingsolace]

To deviate from a custom does not mean you owned the primary custom. To preach that a person who is sealed with the Spirit can lose salvation, is to attempt to contradict scripture and to preach a false gospel based on works and not grace.

In regards to slaves to sin, an unbeliever is, a believer is not. Nowhere in scripture does it illustrate that righteousness is earned, righteousness was always through faith, which God awarded in Grace.

 

[Zanting]

You can't depart from something you never possessed.

Yes, I am very confused by how this conclusion can be reached. I know they offer this interpretation...they never "truly" had the "true" faith in the first place. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

 

[Zanting]

To deviate from a custom does not mean you owned the primary custom. To preach that a person who is sealed with the Spirit can lose salvation, is to attempt to contradict scripture and to preach a false gospel based on works and not grace.

In regards to slaves to sin, an unbeliever is, a believer is not. Nowhere in scripture does it illustrate that righteousness is earned, righteousness was always through faith, which God awarded in Grace.

This answer in no way explains why...But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 18:24

 

[seekingsolace]

You fail to take into account the dispensations of God, and in fact scripture.

Romans 4:5-8
"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

 

[seekingsolace]

Righteousness was reckoned to Abraham for his faith in God, righteousness in the dispensation of Grace is through Christ, thus it has always been through faith - and faith alone.

To not have righteousness is to be without God, to be a slave to sin, for to be born again in belief, is to put the old man to death, to break the bonds of slavery.

if you do not accept the imputed righteousness of Christ, then you are not of God.

 

[Zanting]

You fail to take into account the dispensations of God, and in fact scripture.

Romans 4:5-8
"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

You're reasoning is based on works. What does that have to do with Ezekiel 18:24????

 

[seekingsolace]

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness" if you apply this to today, this would necessitate turning away from Christ and your imputed righteousness. My reasoning is based on your false assumption that works are the means to righteousness, not grace.

 

[lori milne]

To seeking Solas You can't depart from the faith if your not of the faith to begin to with One must be in the faith to depart form the faith

 

[Zanting]

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness" if you apply this to today, this would necessitate turning away from Christ and your imputed righteousness. My reasoning is based on your false assumption that works are the means to righteousness, not grace.

Inputed righteousness Works are a means to righteousness

How did you come to that conclusion???

Perhaps you can explain what "works" means to an OSAS believer.

 

[lori milne]

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness" if you apply this to today, this would necessitate turning away from Christ and your imputed righteousness. My reasoning is based on your false assumption that works are the means to righteousness, not grace.

Romans 3-4 Expresses beautiful and clearly the same question and Answer thanks be to God

He used Abraham as an example He was uncircumcised before the Faith, & Gods imputed Righteousness then he got the circumcision /works The question was raised about gentiles receiving faith righteousness and hope for salvation but Not doing woks.

This answers
2 Questions this thread keeps bumping into 1. Gentiles will never ever struggle with works to faith .!because we are not Jewish we don't and will never have or had these rituals & laws now if we wanted to that would make sense with scripture!

2. This scripture clearly speaks of Abraham Wanting to do works after faith because of the hope and Gods imputed righteousness So now sinning will also fall along the lines of wanting to or not wanting to do because again that all makes sense with scripture.

Btw
No contradictions will ever be found in the bible unless it contradicts YOUR beliefs Or your theology. And Christian if that happens HEED Gods word

 

[lori milne]

You fail to take into account the dispensations of God, and in fact scripture. Romans 4:5-8 "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

This scripture is clear and concise why's are you posting it.
Works would be lavitical law and rituals that only the Jewish have and use without CHRIST .

The passage even explains it's not that gentiles that do these laws at all but the Jews,
The Jews were mad and pointing to Paul to explain this flaw.

Works are not repentance or obeying Gods words ?

 

[seekingsolace]

Zanting you are making absolutely no sense whatsoever, are you not going in circles by first claiming something then denying it?

The bone of contention here is the fact that salvation is by faith - the Grace of God alone, not according to works. If salvation were by works we would all surely fall away from the standards of the Lord, and Jesus sacrifice would not have been unconditional.

There are no contradictions in the Bible when you study in in the way it was designed, not taking a verse here and there and changing the meaning while neglecting the underlying principle and reasoning behind it. This is why so many people are confused and so many denominations crop up, because people choose to believe in their own arrogance and understanding, rather than the simple, orderly truth of God. You cannot pick a single verse and ignore the context, who it was addressed to, the reasoning behind it etc.

Gentiles were foreigners to the blessings of Israel, we had no hope until Christ came along and died for all sins. You cannot justify yourself, because God does not provide uncertainty, but truth and dependability. No person can outgive God, the underlying truth is all you can do is receive what the Lord has given you, that, and that alone is what he asks.

Old Testament prophets were saved through faith in God and what he told them, they spoke of what they did not understand - Psalms, Isaiah and so on. But ultimately they were saved through faith, not works.

Fruit of the spirit is works, that is evident of a true believer, not someone who will become an apostate. Again a true believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit as a Promise, God does not go back on a promise.

 

[lori milne]

Yes, I am very confused by how this conclusion can be reached. I know they offer this interpretation...they never "truly" had the "true" faith in the first place. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

Agreed
You must be in something to
Walk Away from something
The bible is very clear when it is speaking to the church, brethren, Christians

 

[seekingsolace]

This scripture is clear and concise why's are you posting it.
Works would be lavitical law and rituals that only the Jewish have and use without CHRIST .

The passage even explains it's not that gentiles that do these laws at all but the Jews,
The Jews were mad and pointing to Paul to explain this flaw.

Works are not repentance or obeying Gods words ?

I have no idea what you are talking about now. ???

 

[Zanting]

Zanting you are making absolutely no sense whatsoever, are you not going in circles by first claiming something then denying it?

Again I am confused...Please show me a post where I claimed that works has anything to do with one's salvation???

And you did not define what "works" means to an OSAS believer in any way???

 

[lori milne]

To deviate from a custom does not mean you owned the primary custom. To preach that a person who is sealed with the Spirit can lose salvation, is to attempt to contradict scripture and to preach a false gospel based on works and not grace. In regards to slaves to sin, an unbeliever is, a believer is not. Nowhere in scripture does it illustrate that righteousness is earned, righteousness was always through faith, which God awarded in Grace.

Your interpolation of grace is the false gospel .
Find out what every book out side of Paul's letters say about grace - then read what Paul's letters say about it.
The Masonic teachings are great for lopsided Christians who Mis use words to back up theology!

Grace was given but it's not what covered your sins.
Grace means favor on Gods eyes
You must have turned from your sins for that
Isaiah 59:14-21

Salvation was CHRIST and is CHRIST,
The end has yet to come to fulfill the promise of HOPE
Jesus says taken HEED till then hold fast till the end
Rev 2-3

the armor of God is taught in Sunday school
To an OSAS what is the helmet for?
The passages are not to make a costume for your kids!
Christian it's the BASE of your life as a Christian!
Salvation is the hope to be saved heed and hold fast!


Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day,
( WITH STAND WHAT??! Not OSAS, but their saved)

and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God
Ephesians 6:13-17

 

[seekingsolace]

This answer in no way explains why...But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 18:24

What was the purpose of quoting Ezekiel then?

 

[seekingsolace]

You realise the whole armour of God is all about spriritual warfare.

Anyway, I think I've wasted enough time trying to get through to you, but to no avail. Take some time to think of the Grace of God and how you can possibly justify yourself in His eyes. Think of the underlying principle of the Gospel of Jesus, the reasoning behind it, the purpose and fulfillment. Put aside any false notions or indoctrination you've gathered from elsewhere, and meditate on it for a bit. After that meditate on how great the sacrifice Jesus made for us was, how through His Grace we are saved, apart from works. Contemplate the attributes of God, then see if your opinions contradict what is plain to see.

II Timothy 1:8-9
"Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began"