Refuting OSAS in jesus name

[nobdysfool]

accidental double post

 

[nobdysfool]

Ok I'll answer the question, what was the sin?

Answering a question with a question is not answering the question. It doesn't matter what the sin was. Sin is sin. Period.

Again I stand with GOD KNOWS HIS HEART And I don't but I'll answer it.

Still waffling....

Just remember unintentional sin is COMPLETELY deferent then intentional sin.

How so? And please answer from Scripture. All sin is intentional, at some level.

Thoughts come into your mind that are sinful
Anger sadness and fear are drivers of unintentional sin.

It's the intentional sin you must worry about that's iniquity.

Hebrews 10:26

Heb 10:26 KJV For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
​

Who was this directed to? Jews, who were being pressured to go back to the synagogues and participate in the sacrifices. Context!

Willful sin and your flesh waring against the spirit are polar opposites

Scripture?

Paul never committed iniquity but he did struggle with the flesh.

How do you know that? Were you with him 24/7?

Sorry, you're still waffling, because you been shown a glaring inconsistency in your theology (such as it is).

Making up categories of sin to cover the inconsistency shows that you really don't understand what Christ did, and how it works in our lives. You just want rules and regulations, so you can judge outward actions, and compare yourself with others.

You think salvation is about what you do, rather than what Jesus has done.

 

[nobdysfool]

Lol
That's great
Thanks for the formal debate
Either participate or don't but being rude just shows your defending something

So you consider the Word of God, written by the Apostle Paul, to be rude?

Interesting....selective acceptance....

 

[lori milne]

Answering a question with a question is not answering the question. it doesn't matter what the sin was. sin is sin. Period. Still waffling.... How so? And please answer from Scripture. Heb 10:26 KJV For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Who was this directed to? Jews, who were being pressured to go back to the synagogues and participate in the sacrifices. Context! Scripture? How do you know that? Were you with him 24/7? Sorry, you're still waffling, because you been shown a glaring inconsistency in your theology (such as it is). Making up categories of sin to cover the inconsistency shows that you really don't understand what Christ did, and how it works in our lives. You just want rules and regulations, so you can judge outward actions, and compare yourself with others. You think salvation is about what you do, rather than what Jesus has done.

I can't judge I already stated that clearly
Only God knows his heart

Hebrews 10 is speaking of the new covenant that wasn't just for the Jews It was for all men.

Hebrew 10
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation,

David in Romans was spoken of as well
In regards to his iniquity being forgiven after confessed.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin
Romans‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:6-8‬

Specific sins are covered in Galatians because it helps separate unintentional sin and intentional

Paul's letters were Truly written and inspired by GOD I'm sure the man was not in iniquity
because it wasn't written

If I was to assume that would be My theology not biblical fact which is all I base everything I speak about on.

Galatians 5:16-21
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shalli not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

 

[lori milne]

So you consider the Word of God, written by the Apostle Paul, to be rude? Interesting....selective acceptance....

No I consider context

 

[lori milne]

No I consider context

I also consider the fruit of the spirit
Amen
God bless
Your sister in Jesus Christ

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders
Matt 27:3
a lot of folks ask did judas go to heaven ?
Why is this question asked ??
Because he repented and the hung him self.
Repented would in fact mean yes but then suicide would say no?

The point is people always ask because he did repent
I don't know if that made any scene to you.

The Greek word in that verse for "repent" isn't the usual word. It is "metamellomai", not "metanoia". They are different. Metamellomai is usually translated regret.

All Judas expressed was regret. Not a change of mind.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Read the definition and what I said again because that doesn't make sense to what I said
Again
God knows his heart so as long as he FEELS bad about it unless he is unrepented Does not feel bad"
The definition is clear

Feeling bad has NO effect in the Christian life. It is a change of mind that is key. One needs to know the Greek words to understand Scripture.

Repent is NOT the same as regret. They are different.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Personally, I'm beginning to gain a clearer understanding of why Paul said, "I do not suffer a woman to teach..."

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok I'll answer the question, what was the sin?

Again I stand with GOD KNOWS HIS HEART And I don't but I'll answer it.

Just remember unintentional sin is COMPLETELY deferent then intentional sin.

Thoughts come into your mind that are sinful

Jesus was very clear in Matt 5 about the thoughts behind the overt act of sin. So your idea that thoughts are somehow "unintentional" is bogus.

Anger sadness and fear are drivers of unintentional sin.

I've already shown that no one can make you angry. It's you yourself that allows others to make you angry. It's a choice.

Getting angry at someone is your choice. Did Jesus get angry at all the unfair treatment He received? No. He asked His Father to forgive them. It's a choice.

You're always talking about being perfect. So what's all this about "unintentional sin" thing? Jesus never sinned. So why are you trying to split hairs on intentional vs unintentional sins?

It's the intentional sin you must worry about that's iniquity.

Jesus was very clear about thoughts behind the overt acts.

Hebrews 10:26
Willful sin and your flesh waring against the spirit are polar opposites !
Paul never committed iniquity but he did struggle with the flesh.

Those who have actually read Paul's epistles know what he said about himself. Rom 7 is a confession about it:
v.15 - For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
v.17 - So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
v.19 - For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
v.21 - I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
v.23 - but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

1 Tim 1:15 - It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I AM foremost of all. Paul wrote this in the present tense when he wrote "I am". He didn't write "I was…".

 

[nobdysfool]

I can't judge I already stated that clearly
Only God knows his heart

Hebrews 10 is speaking of the new covenant that wasn't just for the Jews It was for all men.

Hebrew 10
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation,

David in Romans was spoken of as well
In regards to his iniquity being forgiven after confessed.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin
Romans‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:6-8‬

Specific sins are covered in Galatians because it helps separate unintentional sin and intentional

Paul's letters were Truly written and inspired by GOD I'm sure the man was not in iniquity
because it wasn't written

If I was to assume that would be My theology not biblical fact which is all I base everything I speak about on.

Galatians 5:16-21
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shalli not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

And with all that you still will not answer the question I posed. It's a simple one, and I even gave you my answer and the reason why.

Please stop dancing around, and provide a clear and direct answer to the question I posed.

 

[nobdysfool]

Unrepented sins are not covered.
It's nothing new because it's written in the Bible

Ware if you don't mind did I say contrary ?

That's just my point. You say that unrepented sin is not covered (your words), so to be consistent, you are saying that Joe goes to Hell, because of that one sin.

Seems rather harsh, that after a lifetime of exemplary Christian service, leading people to Jesus, Preaching the Gospel, doing God's Will fervently and enthusiastically, that a sin which he didn't have the chance to repent of and confess because he was immediately killed the second he committed it, would wipe out 40 years of Christian living and a close relationship with Jesus, as though none of it ever happened.

Is that really the case? Your view REQUIRES it. Why? Because your view insists that we must do something IN ADDITION to what Christ has done, to be forgiven of our sins. Your view says that the Blood of Jesus being shed was not enough to cover the sins of those who believe on Him. Believing on Christ is not enough, in your view. There is no Grace in your view.

 

[EmSw]

Of course they do. Which was my point. And I pointed out that your post seemed to pit them against each other.

How did I pit them against each other?

I never said any such thing. Though He spoke to Nic, His words are for humanity.

Then we can say, though Jesus spoke to the young ruler, His words are for humanity. You can't have it the way you would prefer FG2.

It sure wasn't the Mosaic Law. It was what Jesus Himself said during His life on earth.

Why wasn't it the Mosaic law? Jesus told us the following in Matthew 22 -

37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

ALL the law and prophets are summed in these two commandments Jesus gave. Jesus didn't come to abolish the law or the prophets.

There is no confusion. Many believers are WAY confused about the Bible and have NO TRUTH in them. Saved but very confused.

Since Jesus is the Truth, how can one believe and be saved without Jesus?

Besides, these believers have no truth because they do not keep His commandments; they are liars. They don't even know Jesus. Can one be saved without knowing Jesus?

Wow. What a leap! Conflating 2 different verses to try to make a point. The key to Rev 21:8 is at the front of the list: unbelieving. That's the key. That is not a list of what leads to the lake of fire.

Yes sir, the front of the list. Let's read the group in whole at the front of the list -

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Within this group, we have subsets. The fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars are a subset of the group. Just because one is a murderer, does not mean he whoremonger, just as if one is a liar, does not mean he is unbelieving.

In fact, a believer can be within any subset, and if he continues as such, he will have his part in the lake of fire.

That was described in Rev 20:15. Those whose names are NOT in the book of (eternal) life are cast into the lake of fire. It isn't about sin. Why not? Christ died for all sins.

Of course it's about sin; you dismiss sin so easily.

I say ALL liars who do not overcome, are not written in the book of life.

Are you not familiar with what Jesus said about the commandments? Please read Matt 5:27-28: 27“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

That's why we are admonished to cast away all iniquities, to lay aside all filthiness, to flee sin, and cleanse our hearts. Many do not give these truths a second thought. The only way to not commit adultery is to eradicate the source - an unclean heart.

What was Jesus' point here? He was speaking about the spirit of the law, not just the letter of the law. He viewed the thoughts behind the sin as equal to the sin.

So how does one overcome these sinful thoughts? Do you think he is keeping His commandments if he doesn't cleanse these filthiness of the spirit?

If your claim is that you are keeping ALL the commandments, including the thoughts behind them, then I will know just how off base and confused your view is. You are a fallen human being, with a sin nature. So please don't tell me that you don't think sinful thoughts.

All the law and prophets are summed up in two commandments, which is to love the Lord and our neighbor. Man alone is void of love, and therefore subject to his sinful heart.

Once man receives and believes that God alone is Love, he must totally rely upon Him, that is, obey His word to realize love in his life. His word tells us to lay aside all filthiness of the flesh and spirit. If man does not, his filthiness becomes his master, and God becomes subservient to man.

So yes, a man can cleanse his filthy heart so God can create a new heart within him. Until a man cleanses his heart, it will be filled with sinful thoughts.

Day by day, in the Light, I look to the Lord to show me any filthiness within my heart, so that I may cleanse it. Cleansing comes from awareness of any filth, repentance of that filth, keeping myself cleansed of the filth, and finally forgiveness of that filth from the Master Himself.

In fact, the one who claims he is without sin is a LIAR, according to the aposble John. "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 Jn 1:8

No need to worry FG2, I am a sinner.

So, please tell me: Do you have no sin? Don't forget Rev 21:8.

I'm waiting for your answer to my question about whether there is sin in you.

Yes, sin abides in me, but when the Light reveals it, I can either remove it or be choose to be enslaved to it.

I reject works salvation, which is what your view is. When works (keeping the law/commandments) is linked to inheriting eternal life, it is obvious the subject is reward for behavior, NOT getting into heaven, as you erroneously presume.

Actually my view is salvation by obedience.

Hebrews 5:9 -
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

 

[Hammster]

Jesus fulfilled the law.
We are in Jesus.
Extrapolate.

 

[EmSw]

A little scenario:

Joe is a Christian, and has walked with the Lord for 40 years, and has led an exemplary Christian life, humble, giving, And when he sins, he is quick to repent and ask forgiveness. He pays attention to following the Lord, doing His will, and leading others to Jesus.

One day, Joe is standing on a street corner, and in a moment of weakness, commits a sin as he steps off of the curb to cross the street and is hit by a bus, and is instantly killed.

Joe died without having a chance to repent of that sin and confess and ask forgiveness.

Does Joe go to be with Jesus, or not?

Lori, EmSw, what is your answer, and why?

What was the intention of Joe's heart? Actually no one knows what sins infest their hearts until they manifest themselves. If given the opportunity, would Joe have gone to the Lord and ask forgiveness? Would Joe have continued in that sin if he had lived?

God knew Joe's heart and what he would have done if he had the opportunity. It sounds like Joe would have realized his sin and repented of it.

Everyone who goes to heaven has sin in their hearts which the Light hasn't exposed yet. Until the Lord shows us those sins, how is repentance realized?

Now I will ask you NF, Bill, a reformed believer, knows he has a problem with lying. He does nothing to change this behavior, yet is staunch in his reformed beliefs. He believes his sins are paid in full and needs to do nothing about his lying. In fact, lying becomes more pronounced with each day.

When pressed about his lying, Bill shrugs it off now starts to commit adultery against his wife. He continues his adultery and lies to his wife about his faithfulness.

Will Bill go to heaven or to the lake of fire?

 

[nobdysfool]

What was the intention of Joe's heart? Actually no one knows what sins infest their hearts until they manifest themselves. If given the opportunity, would Joe have gone to the Lord and ask forgiveness? Would Joe have continued in that sin if he had lived?

God knew Joe's heart and what he would have done if he had the opportunity. It sounds like Joe would have realized his sin and repented of it.

Everyone who goes to heaven has sin in their hearts which the Light hasn't exposed yet. Until the Lord shows us those sins, how is repentance realized?

Well, at least you gave me an answer, but you went the long way around the barn to do it. What you say is true enough, we cannot deal with sins we are unaware of. That's where Grace fills the gap.

Now I will ask you NF, Bill, a reformed believer, knows he has a problem with lying. He does nothing to change this behavior, yet is staunch in his reformed beliefs. He believes his sins are paid in full and needs to do nothing about his lying. In fact, lying becomes more pronounced with each day.

When pressed about his lying, Bill shrugs it off now starts to commit adultery against his wife. He continues his adultery and lies to his wife about his faithfulness.

Will Bill go to heaven or to the lake of fire?

I don't know of a true believer who holds to Reformed Theology that would be as you describe. I see this is a thinly veiled attack on Reformed Theology, wherein if I allow that one could be that way, it will be claimed that ALL Reformed believers are that way, which is about the level of logic that some RT haters display. Don't turn this into a screed on RT.

If any believer is aware of his sin, and does nothing about it, he has a problem. The problem has a simple solution, i.e repent and confess, and trust God to strengthen him against further occurrence. If he does not avail himself of that, and continues and adds to his sin, he is no longer in fellowship with Christ, and may, and probably will, suffer discipline at the hand of God, up to and possibly including his physical life (Paul dealt with a similar problem with the Corinthians). but if he has trusted in Christ, even though he loses his life due to God's discipline, his soul is still saved, for that is the point of God's discipline, to preserve the soul. God does not discipline unbelievers as he would a son.

 

[Hammster]

What was the intention of Joe's heart? Actually no one knows what sins infest their hearts until they manifest themselves. If given the opportunity, would Joe have gone to the Lord and ask forgiveness? Would Joe have continued in that sin if he had lived?

God knew Joe's heart and what he would have done if he had the opportunity. It sounds like Joe would have realized his sin and repented of it.

Everyone who goes to heaven has sin in their hearts which the Light hasn't exposed yet. Until the Lord shows us those sins, how is repentance realized?

Now I will ask you NF, Bill, a reformed believer, knows he has a problem with lying. He does nothing to change this behavior, yet is staunch in his reformed beliefs. He believes his sins are paid in full and needs to do nothing about his lying. In fact, lying becomes more pronounced with each day.

When pressed about his lying, Bill shrugs it off now starts to commit adultery against his wife. He continues his adultery and lies to his wife about his faithfulness.

Will Bill go to heaven or to the lake of fire?

If someone continually misrepresents someone else's views, and never corrects himself despite correct information given to him, will he go to heaven or to the lake of fire?

 

[EmSw]

If someone continually misrepresents someone else's views, and never corrects himself despite correct information given to him, will he go to heaven or to the lake of fire?

And just what were Bill's views?

 

[nobdysfool]

And just what were Bill's views?

That wasn't his point. He is speaking about those in this forum who continually misrepresent and even tell lies about the view of others, who refuse to correct themselves or to be corrected, despite that correction having been given, multiple times.

 

[EmSw]

That wasn't his point. He is speaking about those in this forum who continually misrepresent and even tell lies about the view of others, who refuse to correct themselves or to be corrected, despite that correction having been given, multiple times.

There are multiple views of reformation. I don't think I've misrepresented anyone. If what I wrote isn't your view, then don't be offended. There are plenty of different reformed beliefs to go around for everybody.

I put up a scenario and wasn't pointing out anyone in particular. If this doesn't represent you, I would appreciate it if you would just let it slide. Thank you.