Refuting OSAS in jesus name

[lori milne]

I said this: One eky to understanding Scripture is to know what the Greek words mean. In Matt 5:48, the word translated "perfect" is: teleios 1) brought to its end, finished 2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness 3) perfect 4) that which is perfect 4a) consummate human integrity and virtue 4b) of men 4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature Most likely, your understanding was that 'perfect' means to 'no longer sin'. Well, the Greek word certainly does NOT mean that. Jesus NEVER said nor expected fallen humanity to be able to stop sinning. Even Paul struggled in his 2 natures; fallen and regenerated. Rom 6, 7 and Gal 3:16 are clear enough. 2,3,4. All things that no human can achieve to. What is your point? Is there one here?

Their was
It was in regard to be perfect as my father in heaven is perfect
You said he didn't mean the perfection I said it meant!
But in fact he is correct what part of your definition is like God, that was the answer

 

[FreeGrace2]

Pit Jesus against John? No way; they fit together perfectly.

Of course they do. Which was my point. And I pointed out that your post seemed to pit them against each other.

John 3:16 was spoken to Nicodemus. So, according to you beliefs, it was a different context than speaking to us. But yet, you sure want it to speak to you.

I never said any such thing. Though He spoke to Nic, His words are for humanity.

Really? Let's read 1 John 2:3 again.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Of whom is John speaking when he says 'His'?

Perhaps you can tell us source of the commandments of which John is speaking.

It sure wasn't the Mosaic Law. It was what Jesus Himself said during His life on earth.

Sorry FG2, if one doesn't keep His (Jesus') commandments, John says he is a liar and doesn't have truth in him. I doubt anyone sees confusion in John's words.

There is no confusion. Many believers are WAY confused about the Bible and have NO TRUTH in them. Saved but very confused.

If John's verse speaks of believers, and John said they are liars if they do not keep Jesus' commandments, please tell us where liars go according to Revelation 21:8 -

...and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Do you see eternal security for believers who lie?

Wow. What a leap! Conflating 2 different verses to try to make a point. The key to Rev 21:8 is at the front of the list: unbelieving. That's the key. That is not a list of what leads to the lake of fire.

That was described in Rev 20:15. Those whose names are NOT in the book of (eternal) life are cast into the lake of fire. It isn't about sin. Why not? Christ died for all sins.

I asked which commandments with which you are having trouble keeping, and you replied all of them.

Are you not familiar with what Jesus said about the commandments? Please read Matt 5:27-28: 27“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

What was Jesus' point here? He was speaking about the spirit of the law, not just the letter of the law. He viewed the thoughts behind the sin as equal to the sin.

If your claim is that you are keeping ALL the commandments, including the thoughts behind them, then I will know just how off base and confused your view is. You are a fallen human being, with a sin nature. So please don't tell me that you don't think sinful thoughts.

In fact, the one who claims he is without sin is a LIAR, according to the aposble John. "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 Jn 1:8

So, please tell me: Do you have no sin? Don't forget Rev 21:8.

Oh, but John also says they are liars, and please tell us where LIARS end up.

I'm waiting for your answer to my question about whether there is sin in you.

How is that? Jesus told us that if we keep the commandments, we will inherit eternal life. What is it about eternal life that doesn't involve salvation?

I reject works salvation, which is what your view is. When works (keeping the law/commandments) is linked to inheriting eternal life, it is obvious the subject is reward for behavior, NOT getting into heaven, as you erroneously presume.

Except those who don't keep these commandments are liars, and liars end up in the lake of fire.

Yeah, and John also said that anyone who claims there is no sin in them are LIARS. So, is that your claim? No sin in you?

Also, those who do keep them, inherit eternal life. So I think it is very
relevant.

I'm getting tired of having to keep explaining the difference between receiving eternal life by faith and what inheriting eternal life means when linked to behavior or works. It means reward.

But anyone is free to reject the truth of Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Originally Posted by Brother Chris
How can God forgive your current and future sins? He can't simply look over them. How does He forgive them?

When you have repentance
And turn from Your sin

Wow. So, Christ took care of our so-called past sins, and we take care of all the rest. That totallly SMACKS of saving yourself. Which is blasphemous against the work of Christ, who died for all sins, as I have previously proved from Scripture.

Sanctification is a process that we can't take for granted or in vein even we have to run the race with endurance not justified sin.

Sanctification is about spiritual growth, not getting or staying saved. No wonder your view is so confused.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But grace 2 that's not going to take away what the bible says about going to hell if you don't obey the laws !

Where are the verses that support this claim?

Either way your going to hell if you don't obey the laws! It's clearly in the bible!

This keeps being repeated but no verses that say so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am looking for something that says current or future sins are covered because a lot of people say it.

Well, this is what I posted about 20 posts ago, which you've ignored:

Further, the Greek word for "once for all" found in Rom 6:10, Heb 7:27, 9:12 and 10:10 are about His death for sins.

ephapax
Thayer Definition:
1) once, at once
1a) all at once
1b) once for all

iow, He died ONE TIME for ALL SINS.

Rom 6:10 - For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Heb 7:27 - 7who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Heb 9:12 - and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 10:10 - By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

I hope these verses will put to rest your errant view of "past sins".

Jesus Christ died once for all sins. Your view misunderstands Rom 3:25.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Their was
It was in regard to be perfect as my father in heaven is perfect
You said he didn't mean the perfection I said it meant!
But in fact he is correct what part of your definition is like God, that was the answer

Anyone who thinks that man can achieve the perfection of God in this life is beyond confused.

 

[Brother Chris]

That's with out saying
I'm sorry I didn't realize what you were really " saying?
Lol

I hold on to the word of God and
Romans 3:25 Is clear remission is for past sins

I am looking for something that says current or future sins are covered because a lot of people say it.

Read Hebrews 10:12,

but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

Our sins have been paid for, all of them, forever! How is this not clear to you??? Sorry, but Jesus is not going to come back to earth and die on the cross for your future sins, is He??? If He is not, then there are 2 results:

1.) One, we will pay for our future sins in Hell forever, because there is no atonement or sacrifice for them

2.) Jesus paid for all of the sins we will ever commit, and so there remains no wrath or punishment for us.

Those are your only two options. Nothing more.

 

[lori milne]

Read Hebrews 10:12, but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, Our sins have been paid for, all of them, forever! How is this not clear to you??? Sorry, but Jesus is not going to come back to earth and die on the cross for your future sins, is He??? If He is not, then there are 2 results: 1.) One, we will pay for our future sins in Hell forever, because there is no atonement or sacrifice for them 2.) Jesus paid for all of the sins we will ever commit, and so there remains no wrath or punishment for us. Those are your only two options. Nothing more.

Sins are covered For all times correct that's also an obvious no Brainer but in verse 26 it's clear no current sin can be covered because you must have a clean conscience repented sins are covered they must be behind you.

I'm saying current sins
If your lets say addicted to porn" and can't seem to brake it but you praying for help.
This is not at all forgiven until you confess & Stop !

That's not cover by the blood because it must be past!
Here is some passages for that :

Arron in Leviticus had them wash the entire body and then confessed all sins with a clear convenience before the blood was pored.

Hebrew speaks of the same exact order.

Hebrews 10 :1-26


By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.)
>>
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
Heb 10 20-26<<

Luke speaks of the Galatians which were saved
Some asked jesus did they go to heaven because they were saved but sinned


Some people there with Jesus at that time told him about what had happened to some worshipers from Galilee. Pilate had them killed. Their blood was mixed with the blood of the animals they had brought for sacrificing. Jesus answered, &ldquo;Do you think this happened to those people because they were more sinful than all other people from Galilee? No, they were not. But if you don&rsquo;t decide now to change your lives, you will all be destroyed like those people! ([bless and do not curse]Luke&#8236; [bless and do not curse]13&#8236;:[bless and do not curse]1-3&#8236; ERV)

 

[nobdysfool]

A little scenario:

Joe is a Christian, and has walked with the Lord for 40 years, and has led an exemplary Christian life, humble, giving, And when he sins, he is quick to repent and ask forgiveness. He pays attention to following the Lord, doing His will, and leading others to Jesus.

One day, Joe is standing on a street corner, and in a moment of weakness, commits a sin as he steps off of the curb to cross the street and is hit by a bus, and is instantly killed.

Joe died without having a chance to repent of that sin and confess and ask forgiveness.

Does Joe go to be with Jesus, or not?

Lori, EmSw, what is your answer, and why?

 

[lori milne]

A little scenario: Joe is a Christian, and has walked with the Lord for 40 years, and has led an exemplary Christian life, humble, giving, And when he sins, he is quick to repent and ask forgiveness. He pays attention to following the Lord, doing His will, and leading others to Jesus. One day, Joe is standing on a street corner, and in a moment of weakness, commits a sin as he steps off of the curb to cross the street and is hit by a bus, and is instantly killed. Joe died without having a chance to repent of that sin and confess and ask forgiveness. Does Joe go to be with Jesus, or not? Lori, EmSw, what is your answer, and why?

God knows his heart So as long as he isn't in habitual sin and does feel guilty of bad then of corse he's forgiven Do you think judas repented?? dictionary.reference.com &rsaquo; browse &rsaquo; repent Mobile-friendly - to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent. to remember or regard with self-reproach or contrition: to repent one's injustice to another. to feel sorry for; regret:

 

[lori milne]

God knows his heart So as long as he isn't in habitual sin and does feel guilty of bad then of corse he's forgiven Do you think judas repented?? dictionary.reference.com &rsaquo; browse &rsaquo; repent Mobile-friendly - to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent. to remember or regard with self-reproach or contrition: to repent one's injustice to another. to feel sorry for; regret:

Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders
Matt 27:3
a lot of folks ask did judas go to heaven ?
Why is this question asked ??
Because he repented and the hung him self.
Repented would in fact mean yes but then suicide would say no?

The point is people always ask because he did repent
I don't know if that made any scene to you.

 

[nobdysfool]

God knows his heart So as long as he isn't in habitual sin and does feel guilty of bad then of corse he's forgiven Do you think judas repented?? dictionary.reference.com &rsaquo; browse &rsaquo; repent Mobile-friendly - to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent. to remember or regard with self-reproach or contrition: to repent one's injustice to another. to feel sorry for; regret:

You're waffling. According to things you've said before, your belief would require that Joe goes to hell, because he didn't repent or ask forgiveness for that last sin, done immediately before being struck and instantly killed by the bus.

So you aren't even consistent with your own belief.

 

[lori milne]

You're waffling. According to things you've said before, your belief would require that Joe goes to hell, because he didn't repent or ask forgiveness for that last sin, done immediately before being struck and instantly killed by the bus. So you aren't even consistent with your own belief.

Unrepented sins are not covered.
It's nothing new because it's written in the Bible

Ware if you don't mind did I say contrary ?

 

[lori milne]

You're waffling. According to things you've said before, your belief would require that Joe goes to hell, because he didn't repent or ask forgiveness for that last sin, done immediately before being struck and instantly killed by the bus. So you aren't even consistent with your own belief.

Read the definition and what I said again because that doesn't make sense to what I said
Again
God knows his heart so as long as he FEELS bad about it unless he is unrepented Does not feel bad"
The definition is clear


dictionary.reference.com &rsaquo; browse &rsaquo; repent
Mobile-friendly - to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent. to remember or regard with self-reproach or contrition: to repent one's injustice to another. to feel sorry for; regret:

 

[nobdysfool]

Read the definition and what I said again because that doesn't make sense to what I said
Again
God knows his heart so as long as he FEELS bad about it unless he is unrepented Does not feel bad"
The definition is clear

Nope. You are waffling, because you know that you're being inconsistent. Since when does FEELING have anything to do with it? What I said makes perfect sense. In the scenario, Joe didn't have time to feel anything about his sin. He was killed instantly after committing it. There was no time for remorse, no time for repentance, no time for anything.

Your definition won't save the situation. It has no bearing on the situation. Please, just answer the question without trying to wiggle around an uncomfortable fact that this scenario exposed in your view.

My answer is simple. Joe will go to be with Jesus, because his sin was already dealt with on the Cross, and Joe is in Christ by faith.

Do you really understand what it means to be in Christ?

 

[Marvin Knox]

I see you're still doing this teaching business Lori.

You know, don't you that there awaits a bigger judgment for you for what you are doing.

"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment." James 3:1

You need to settle down under some good teachers for a while and then return to teaching. Like EmSw and a few others here - you are on thin ice.

"And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and te achers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love." Ephesians 4:11-16

 

[nobdysfool]

Personally, I'm beginning to gain a clearer understanding of why Paul said, "I do not suffer a woman to teach..."

 

[lori milne]

Nope. You are waffling, because you know that you're being inconsistent. Since when does FEELING have anything to do with it? What I said makes perfect sense. In the scenario, Joe didn't have time to feel anything about his sin. He was killed instantly after committing it. There was no time for remorse, no time for repentance, no time for anything. Your definition won't save the situation. It has no bearing on the situation. Please, just answer the question without trying to wiggle around an uncomfortable fact that this scenario exposed in your view. My answer is simple. Joe will go to be with Jesus, because his sin was already dealt with on the Cross, and Joe is in Christ by faith. Do you really understand what it means to be in Christ?

Ok I'll answer the question, what was the sin?

Again I stand with GOD KNOWS HIS HEART And I don't but I'll answer it.

Just remember unintentional sin is COMPLETELY deferent then intentional sin.

Thoughts come into your mind that are sinful
Anger sadness and fear are drivers of unintentional sin.

It's the intentional sin you must worry about that's iniquity.

Hebrews 10:26
Willful sin and your flesh waring against the spirit are polar opposites !
Paul never committed iniquity but he did struggle with the flesh.

 

[lori milne]

I see you're still doing this teaching business Lori. You know, don't you that there awaits a bigger judgment for you for what you are doing. "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment." James 3:1 You need to settle down under some good teachers for a while and then return to teaching. Like EmSw and a few others here - you are on thin ice. "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and te achers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love." Ephesians 4:11-16

I'm not teAching I'm warning and opening the thread for debate! Sorry if you feel offended
But I'm open to learning as well and truly on my own search for understanding

 

[lori milne]

Personally, I'm beginning to gain a clearer understanding of why Paul said, "I do not suffer a woman to teach..."

Lol
That's great
Thanks for the formal debate
Either participate or don't but being rude just shows your defending something