This is all true. We do need to have a love motivated by forgiveness, and we do need to act in love at all times or it is worthless. But that does not negate the verses Abbalove brought up. Jesus telling two people to, “sin no more” in
John. 5:14, and
John 8:11 are also words by Jesus we have to accept, as well. The Scriptures also say, “….by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.” (
Proverbs 16:6).
Philippians 2:12 says, “…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
2 Corinthians 7:1 says, “…let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” Keep in mind that Paul says that what he writes are the commandments of the Lord (See:
1 Corinthians 14:37). If we do not receive the words of the Lord, they will judge us on the last day (
John 12:48). So while love does motivate and while we do need to act in love, we also need to preach the severity of God, as well.
”Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in
his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (
Romans 11:22).
I have never suggested “fear of punishment” is not an excellent motivator, especially if you have not already been gifted with Godly type Love, fear is you best motivation. The prodigal son was very much motivated by fear, without any sign of Love.
Tell me this: If you are being compelled by Godly type Love how much “fear” of being lost do you need? Paul had some fear of being lost in the end also, but he shows really being motivated by Love.
God is also angry at the wicked every day, too (Psalms 7:11).
In addition, "...the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:12).
So it's important to look at the whole counsel of God's Word.
If you have accepted God’s forgiveness for your past sins, you are not counted with the wicked.
You appeared to be against the idea of a believer overcoming sin because you asked me if I have overcome sin and you justified the idea of various things you believed were sins like goofing off, watching something stupid on TV, etcetera. I am not trying to be a thorn in your side or anything. I am just trying to keep you honest and consistent in what you say.
Good question and we can certainly talk about this.
We are commanded to be Christ like, one with God and Christ, as Christ is one with God: John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
If you tell people, “you are all going to go on sinning, but you can reduce your sinning over time” or tell them: “You did sin in the past, but now you have: Godly type Love and the indwelling Holy Spirit which will not be involved in sin”. Yes, you can quench the spirit and go out on you own (sinning), but you do not have to quench the Spirit. What I have found is: Telling people, “They have the power to keep from sinning”, (which they hopefully do not want to sin) results in a lot less sinning, rapid repenting, and continuous improvement. Sin is our fault and not the Creator of us fault, we now have the power.
The only way I see to keep from sinning is by allowing the Spirit in you to do good stuff through you (24/7). You can be Christ today to this world Loving and serving others.
Some who call themselves, “Christians” are not really Christ like, but say they are not sinning, because what they are doing is not sin for a “Christian”, they try to change the definition of “sin”.
Some talk about their spiritual self being pure and holy, while the physical self is sinning.
My sins are always “minor” compared to your sins.
Is doing something other than what Christ would have done in a Christian’s shoes, sin?
Can the world know when you are being Christ like and when you are not? “so that the world may believe”
Do you feel you “get” something from not sinning or are you not sinning out of you Love for God and wanting Him to be happy with you? If you could sit around not sinning, would that be more pleasing to God, than putting yourself out there
on the edge teaching others under some severe persecution and failing sometimes? Where is the Spirit leading you?
Well, you said, this, I quote:
“….sins in the future are forgiven
if the person is accepting of God’s forgiveness.”
~ Quote by bling.
So did you change your view on this? Or are you saying something else?
You did not read my quote the way I meant it to be read and this gets into the huge topic of forgiveness, which I can discuss with you. God is forgiving everyone’s sins, except the unforgivable sin, but that does not mean
forgiveness has taken place. I must humbly accept that forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, which happen after I sin. I have a part to play in the forgiveness process.
I use the parable in Matt. 18 extensively as a proof text to show how forgiveness, Love, atonement, grace, and mercy are not one-sided actions but require action on both the giver and receiver to complete the transaction.
This parable is not explained well by any commentary I have read.
Before going into this parable, you need to get the context which may not be obvious;
Do not blame God for not forgiving, but the person God is trying to forgive will not humbly accept the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity.
Matt. 18: 21-35
Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).
I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly, a strait forward answer, but Jesus’ answer would produce follow-up questions immediately, but the apostles are slow to ask Jesus what is on their hearts which we find throughout scripture, but Jesus knows. The parable is the follow-up answer to this question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).
I would suggest: when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77 they are thinking: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?” (People always think about how it will impact themselves.)
Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.
Here are some questions I have asked in the past:
The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.
The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, is it referring to all other humans or just other Christian brothers?)
Here is what we might want to further discuss on Matt. 18:
The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept being forgiven as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?
The servant answers: “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back and the Master states this and the servant would know this (he has been in charge of a huge amount of money), but what would the Master be tell the world about this servant if he gave him more time? Could the servant take pride in telling others: “The Master gave me more time to pay the whole debt back”?
In management 101 they tell us not to give the person a raise at the same time you give them a performance review, why? They come in wanting to hear what raise they got, and that is all they will hear and remember.
This parable might be a classic example of the person hearing what they wanted to hear. The servant came to the master wanting to hear, “I will give you more time to pay all the debt” while he did not expect to hear, “Your debt has been totally forgiven”, so what did he hear?
If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love), (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love have been seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?
If a “unconditional forgiveness transaction” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?
God being Love would be the perfect forgiver, forgiving everyone of all their wrongs all the time, so how could anyone go to hell?
I do not “loan” my employee money any more, but I am happy to let them decide how much their real need compares to the need of Christians in Ukraine, because the money will go to them or Ukraine as pure charity. Some did have big needs, which I was glad to help with, but I have reduced the total money, I loaned out and lost to people, who took loans before quitting or being fired.
Is there any other debt the servant owes, since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?
Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?
In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?
Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?
Christ’s parables address one area of how things work in the Kingdom, but may leave other areas unaddressed (it is only a short story), so we need to be cautious.
Lots of times you need to put yourself into the audience Jesus is addressing and try to be thinking: what they would be thinking about at the time, because Jesus addresses what is on the heart of the individual person(s) and not what has been verbalized (there are a dozen examples of this).
Jesus gives us one requirement, we often leave out, and that is going to the person we tried to forgive when he did not accept the forgiveness as charity, and explain what he did wrong and why he still owes us. We may stop with just not loaning them our car again.
These moments are teaching moments.
God turning something over to you to become your possession saying “here it is it is yours now” that is a promise He is making. You can do with it as you please (sell it, give it away) but since God made the commitment (promise) He cannot just take it back.
God forgives unconditionally, but we do have to accept it as unconditional, undeserved, unselfish pure charity to complete the transaction.
I did not really look at the details of the servant throwing the other servant in prison. There are always limits to parables, but look at the subtle differences between what the servants did and what the master did. The wicked servant only put the fellow servant in prison (no mention of torture this could be like Paul’s imprisonment) while the master had the wicked servant turned over to a person (being) for continuous torture?
Can we start with what we do agree with in this parable, just let me know yes or no:
1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?
2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?
3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?
4. The wicked servant is a sinner?
5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?
6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?
7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?
8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?
If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?
That is just one passage on forgiveness and you might have more questions so where do you want to go?
