refuting a 'refutation of tongues'. help, anyone?

[ChildofZion]

hey all. I'm new to the forum and was wondering if somebody could help me out with an article I read.

I'm having a friendly debate with a girl at my work over tongues and she sent me this article:



ok it says I can't post an external link unless I have 15 posts, but really this is just a friendly debate. Would somebody mind emailing me at cleetusthefetus@yahoo.com?

can anyone provide some solid refutations, with citation and everything? I'd like to have the input of other Pentecostals who may be more well-versed than I in defending what I believe (that isthe Baptism of the Holy Spirit and tongues being for today).

I would appreciate any and all assistance, as I am a busy college man in need of some time to get down and get this debate going. Thanks.

Brian

 

[oliveplants]

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

1 Corinthians 12-14 is a good standard for the gifts of the Spirit and their offices.

As far as debate rules go, if she's trying to say things have changed since the Bible was written (assuming you both are Christians, and believe in the supremacy of the BIble), wouldn't the burden of proof be on her?

Of course, you could just take her to church and show her... But I prefer the theological argument over the experiential one.

 

[mootay]

toungues is a a gift. just like any other. i speak in toungues but its for me and my relationship with god. tounges is a personal thing for your spirit to connect with god and cry out to god. it is a different level of prayer. read 1 corinthians ch14. toungues is very relevent as is all other gifts but it is something that i berlive is personal.
paul in corinthians talks about using toungues in the church and how a interpreter is needed otherwise it does not build anyine up.

 

[ghduvall]

I agree with Mootay about tounges. The thing that always gets me is this, there are many gifts of the spirit, but it seems tounges is the one everyone talks about. In Corinthians Paul says it is the lesser gift, but we should be eager for the greater gifts. I cannot see why some people want to limit God and how He works.

 

[fwGod]

I agree with Mootay about tounges. The thing that always gets me is this, there are many gifts of the spirit, but it seems tounges is the one everyone talks about. In Corinthians Paul says it is the lesser gift,

where does Paul say that tongues is a lesser gift?

..but we should be eager for the greater gifts. I cannot see why some people want to limit God and how He works.

i agree. with speaking in tongues, a believer can go on to interpreting tongues, singing in tongues,
interceding for others,
keep themselves in the love of God - that the evil one touches him not.,
in tongues a believer can enter into rest and refreshing,
be calm and at peace instead of upset about something,
enjoy intimate communication with God,
being edified, edify others,
be available for any of the 9 gifts.
take dominion over areas of weakness in his flesh.
enter into the refuge of God, run to the hightower in time of trouble.

where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

there's probably more.

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[ghduvall]

Sorry if I miss spoke. In 1 Cor 12:30, 31 Paul said "Not all have gifts of healing, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? Not all interpret, do they? 12:31 But you should be eager for the greater gifts.

And now I will show you a way that is beyond comparison." Also in 1 Cor 13:1 "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

And in 1 Cor 14:1-5 "Pursue love and be eager for the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 14:2 For the one speaking in a tongue does not speak to people but to God, for no one understands; he is speaking mysteries by the Spirit. 14:3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouragement, and consolation. 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 14:5 I wish you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church may be strengthened." SO Paul is saying the gifts that build people up are gifts we should desire, more so than gifts that build us up. So again, if I miss spoke I am sorry.

 

[UPCPrincess18]

Just thought that I would say hello!

 

[woman.at.the.well]

Sorry if I miss spoke. In 1 Cor 12:30, 31 Paul said "Not all have gifts of healing, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? Not all interpret, do they? 12:31 But you should be eager for the greater gifts.

And now I will show you a way that is beyond comparison." Also in 1 Cor 13:1 "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

And in 1 Cor 14:1-5 "Pursue love and be eager for the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 14:2 For the one speaking in a tongue does not speak to people but to God, for no one understands; he is speaking mysteries by the Spirit. 14:3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouragement, and consolation. 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 14:5 I wish you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church may be strengthened." SO Paul is saying the gifts that build people up are gifts we should desire, more so than gifts that build us up. So again, if I miss spoke I am sorry.

my 2 cents as well.

 

[fwGod]

Sorry if I miss spoke. In 1 Cor 12:30, 31 Paul said "Not all have gifts of healing, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? Not all interpret, do they? 12:31 But you should be eager for the greater gifts.

And now I will show you a way that is beyond comparison." Also in 1 Cor 13:1 "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

And in 1 Cor 14:1-5 "Pursue love and be eager for the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 14:2 For the one speaking in a tongue does not speak to people but to God, for no one understands; he is speaking mysteries by the Spirit. 14:3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouragement, and consolation. 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 14:5 I wish you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church may be strengthened." SO Paul is saying the gifts that build people up are gifts we should desire, more so than gifts that build us up. So again, if I miss spoke I am sorry.

yes. it says that the person is greater.. or the unspoken lesser.. not the gift itself being greater.. or lesser.

so. i checked out the word "greater".. blb gives a number of words to choose from.. but i like the word 'dimension'. the person is dimensionally greater because of that gift.
the scope of edification for the body is greater because of those who can prophecy.



j

 

[iwasbornforbattle]

I disagree with everyone's 'interpretation' of Paul's letters. Is that bad?

 

[fwGod]

I disagree with everyone's 'interpretation' of Paul's letters. Is that bad?

i dont think so. the topic is not essential to salvation so everyone's entitled to have their views on it.

j

 

[iwasbornforbattle]

Good deal.

What are the main verses used to back up the existence of the Gifts of the Spirit in today's society?

 

[fwGod]

Good deal.

What are the main verses used to back up the existence of the Gifts of the Spirit in today's society?

acts1:4-5 ".. wait for what the Father had promised, which you heard of from Me; for john baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.."
joel2:28; acts2:17 "in the last days I'll pour out My Spirit on all flesh."
acts2:38-39 ".. and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. for the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself."
acts10:34, 43-47 "God is not one to show partiality.. .. through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.. .. and the Holy Spirit fell on those who were listening to the message.. .. the gift of the Holy Spirit poured out upon the gentiles.. .. surely no one can refuse water (baptism to) those who have received the Holy Spirit."
acts19:2 ".. did you receive the Holy Spirit since you believed?"

j

 

[Tranceformer110]

ChildofZion, I don't know of any books or liturature that defends modern tongues. However, I would encourage you to do an in depth study on it. If you have a Bible college in your area go to their library and check through some commentaries. Check the original greek texts and do some word studies. Your faith in this area will be far more strengthened than getting opinions online and just casue we are pentecostal doesn't mean we agree on anything

 

[iwasbornforbattle]

I think that the point of the Gifts of the Spirit are for evangelistic purposes only. They were meant for the First Century Church to bring more to Christ through confirmation of God by doing these works. Once the Bible was completed, they were not needed as confirmation. The Bible is all the confirmation that is needed now. I don't make claims against anyone who feels they have any of the Gifts of the Spirit; I just question there validity as they are used selfishly from what I have seen.

 

[woman.at.the.well]

Sorry if I miss spoke. In 1 Cor 12:30, 31 Paul said "Not all have gifts of healing, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? Not all interpret, do they? 12:31 But you should be eager for the greater gifts.

And now I will show you a way that is beyond comparison." Also in 1 Cor 13:1 "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

And in 1 Cor 14:1-5 "Pursue love and be eager for the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 14:2 For the one speaking in a tongue does not speak to people but to God, for no one understands; he is speaking mysteries by the Spirit. 14:3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouragement, and consolation. 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 14:5 I wish you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church may be strengthened." SO Paul is saying the gifts that build people up are gifts we should desire, more so than gifts that build us up. So again, if I miss spoke I am sorry.

studying the gift of speaking in tongues. And have come to the conclusion that it is not for everyone as I had originally been led to believe by others. Don't get me wrong, I am not judging others or trying to sway anyone into what I saw as I studied. But it was quite clear to me that as it is said in the first line of the above quote:

Sorry if I miss spoke. In 1 Cor 12:30, 31 Paul said "Not all have gifts of healing, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? Not all interpret, do they? 12:31 But you should be eager for the greater gifts.

I was given a study of tongues by someone I love dearly and prayed before I studied that God would lead me to the truth. All the verses that were supplied in the study of all who are supposedly to speak in tongues were very vague in my opinion and actually kind of manipulated.

For instance, one of the verses that was used as an example of ALL were to speak in tongues came from

Acts 2
The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?" 13Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine.[

Here we see the word ALL being used but we have to take into consideration who ALL was. And that was the apostles as shown in the previous Chapter. Correct? NOt only that but, the purpose of them speaking in the tongues at the time was so that the Jews from every nation who were standing near by could here what was being said in their own language. Correct?

What do you guys thin? I am honestly not trying to incite a debate here. I truly am on the same search as the OP and would really like to read your honest, searched out, biblical responses too!

Thank you!

 

[iwasbornforbattle]

I'm not sure what your question/statement is. Clarify a little bit.

 

[Tranceformer110]

I repeat what I said in my above post. Do an in depth study of the debated texts. Asking these kind of questions on here will confuse you more because there will be 50 different views and that's just the pentecostal forum not counting all the others.

 

[iwasbornforbattle]

I guess I'll never know.

 

[Tranceformer110]

I guess I'll never know.

On what do you base your view? I would discuss it with you and we can go from there.