refuting a 'refutation of tongues'. help, anyone?

[iwasbornforbattle]

On what do you base your view? I would discuss it with you and we can go from there.

After carefully studying what the Bible actually says about the issue, I have come to the conclusion that Gifts of the Spirit were the most important set of evangelical tools used by the first century church. Since the completion of the New Testament, as written in by Paul, they faded away. I base all of my conclusions on what the Bible says. I did at one point believe the same way as th OP did and have since discovered the truth about tongues.

 

[ghduvall]

After carefully studying what the Bible actually says about the issue, I have come to the conclusion that Gifts of the Spirit were the most important set of evangelical tools used by the first century church. Since the completion of the New Testament, as written in by Paul, they faded away. I base all of my conclusions on what the Bible says. I did at one point believe the same way as th OP did and have since discovered the truth about tongues.

I would like to know where in the Bible you say the Gifts of the Spirit were for the first century church. I know some people use 1 Cor 13:9-10 to say the Bible is "what is perfect comes". I don't believe the Bible we have is what Paul was talking about. Granted, there are more anchent documents supporting the Bible than any other old document out there, no other is even close. But we have an imperfect knowledge of it, I give by example the many different beliefs on what the Bible says. I believe "what is perfect" Paul is talking about is Jesus and the last time I checked He has not come back yet. The Gifts of the Spirit, as you said, are "the most important set of evangelical tools" to be used by the church then and still today. I get sad when I hear someone tring to limit God and what He wants to do in this world. Truely it has been said, you need to study the Bible and pray to God to help understand what He is telling you. It doenot hurt totalk it over with your pastor or someone like them. But I would like to know where in the Bible it says the Gifts of the Spirit are not for now.

 

[ghduvall]

I think you did a good study. I would agree the All refered to in Acts 2 was the people in tacts 1, but there was 120 there Acts 1:15. I have noticed in the Bible when the Holy Spirit came on them, we pentecostals would say baptized, they spoke in tounges and praised God. But I don't think that gift will be with every believer all of the time because 1 Cor 12:11 "It is one and the same Spirit, distributing as he decides to each person, who produces all these things". So I believe it is the Holy Spirit who descides who has which gift and when.

 

[Tranceformer110]

After carefully studying what the Bible actually says about the issue, I have come to the conclusion that Gifts of the Spirit were the most important set of evangelical tools used by the first century church. Since the completion of the New Testament, as written in by Paul, they faded away. I base all of my conclusions on what the Bible says. I did at one point believe the same way as th OP did and have since discovered the truth about tongues.

1st the only gifts of the Spirit that could have faded would be prophecy, tongues and knowledge. 2nd tongues are not just for evangelism. They are also for edification, for yourself and for the church see 1st Corinthians 14, and as confirmation see Acts 10:46 and 19:5-7. Lastly I want to ask you a question and hear me out this is not sarcasm. How do you get that tongues isn't for today from this passage? 1st Corinthians 13:8-12

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 

[lismore]

You see from this passage that Paul wanted everyone to have the baptism in the Holy Spirit and it outrank's John's Baptism.

Acts 19

Paul in Ephesus


1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied. 4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.



If anyone doesnt want the empowerment of the Holy Spirit then its the Kingdom's loss and their rebellion is on their head.

 

[cruztacean]

May I jump in as a latecomer to this discussion?

A member of another denomination once tried to tell me that tongues cannot exist today because the only way to recieve that gift was to have one of the Apostles lay hands on you, and since they're all dead now, they can't do it....

I then asked him to explain Acts 10:44-48, where the Holy Spirit came upon a group of Gentiles who had not been baptized or had hands placed on them, and the evidence of the Holy Spirit was that the Gentiles began to speak in tongues.

All of a sudden "tongues" had a different meaning. "Oh, God just gave them the ability to speak in foreign languages so they could spread the gospel...."

First the gift of "tongues" held only as long as the Apostles were alive, then when the Apostles were shown to have no bearing on the gift, it turns out that "tongues" is something perfectly ordinary. How can both of those be true? If "tongues" is merely learning a foreign language, why would people need a miracle to do that when any American kindergartener can attend a Spanish class and learn the rudiments? If "tongues," being simply a foreign language, have ceased, then why is there still a need to learn a foreign language in order to serve on a mission? As a matter of fact, if "tongues" have ceased, then why do we have more than one human language at all?

I Corinthians 13 says, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels..." This passage is often used to show that a heart of love is more important than any act or talent, and that's true. But back up, there... tongues of angels. There are "foreign languages" that are spoken by angels, and likely wouldn't be understood by any human on earth, without a spritual gift to allow it.

I usually summarize my witness* by citing I Corinthians 14:39--Desire to prophesy, but do not forbid speaking with tongues.


*Definition of witness--Not chasing someone down the street to tell them they're going to hell if they don't follow the correct belief system, but rather sharing with the world what I personally have seen, heard, felt, learned, and experienced. Why do I believe? Whatever follows the word "because" is my witness and testimony.

 

[UncleRicky]

Greetings all,

This subject has been of interest to me for many years.

The concept of "Angel language" has always bothered me. It seems to me that you could string together any string of random syllables and call it a language. When I was a kid, by friends and I would play games and pretend we were from Italy or Germany, or some other country, and "Talk Foreign" to each other. Of course, since we didn't actually know the language, our speech tended to sound monotonous - that is, the same 3 or 4 sounds repeated over and over. When switching languages, the sounds changed, but it was still 3 or 4 sounds repeated over and over.

Having grown up in a culturally diverse neighborhood, I heard half a dozen foreign languages that I didn't understand. They all had some things in common. There was a certain cadence or rhythm, and they didn't sound as if the same 3 or 4 syllables were continuously repeated.

Getting back to the subject of Tongues, I whole heartedly believe that this gift is real.

What are Tongues for? Let me share my view...

In Isaiah, God is Prophesying about the Israelites...

Isa 28:9 "To whom will he teach knowledge, and to whom will he explain the message? Those who are weaned from the milk, those taken from the breast?
Isa 28:10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little."
Isa 28:11 For by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue the LORD will speak to this people,
Isa 28:12 to whom he has said, "This is rest; give rest to the weary; and this is repose"; yet they would not hear.

He was saying that He would use Tongues to preach the gospel to Jews.

Fast forward to the first century church...

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
Act 2:8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
Act 2:9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
Act 2:11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians--we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God."

Real languages - real message - to Jews.

What an amazing gift. All the gifts of the Spirit are wonderful, but only this one can be faked. I did it as a kid, and Christians were doing it at Corinth. Paul was gently saying "If someone with the gift of interpretation can't interpret what you are saying.. Button up. [You are probably faking it] "

I have heard many people speaking in their "Spiritual language" and to my ear, it sounds nothing like the languages in my old neighborhood. I hear the same 3 or 4 syllables repeated, and it sounds like me and my buddies playing our pretend game.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things


When a tongues practitioner says they are speaking a special spiritual language that they don't understand, I think... "What's the point? Nobody is benefited."
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
I think Paul is saying that when we speak in a foreign language, it should be to men.



I'm not trying to change anyons views here... I doubt that would happen. I am only expressing my take on the subject. Your feedback is most welcome



Cheers,
Rick



http://unclerickysperigrinations.blogspot.com/

 

[Tranceformer110]

I agree tongues is a real language unknown to the speaker. The original Greek supports that idea as well.
Take a look at st Corinthians 13

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

1st,Paul does not say he is speaking in th tongue of angels. He says "If". 2nd, the context is not about tongues it's about love. 3rd, Paul is using hyperbole. How do I know this? Look at th other verses, he didn't fathom all mysteries, he didn't move any mountains, he didn't give all he had to the poor, and he did not surrender his body to the flames. So why on earth would we take the first part and dispose th rest?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There are some points that I want to make about the gift of tongues:

1. There are at least three categories of tongues, if you read 1Corinthians 12 and 14 closely. 1Corinthians12 speaks of a ministry of different types of tongues in the same list as Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers. This implies that there is a ministry in it that not all people are given.

Later in 1Corinthians 12 it mentions tongues in another list of helps and resources for the church. Therefore the ministry of tongues covers not only ministry and leadership level service, but also applies to the ministry assistants and others who provide deacon type service to the church.

Then, in 1Corinthians14, Paul talks of a type of tongue which is spoken to the congregation and then is interpreted. Not all people have this type to tongue as well.

I believe that when Paul said "Do all speak in tongues?" he is meaning, do all have a ministry in tongues? in the same way as all do not have an Apostleship ministry, or is a Prophet.

But there is a third category of tongues and this is the personal prayer language that all believers can receive who are filled with the Holy Spirit. This is a resource to help in personal prayer, and fits in with Paul's statement "I would that you all spoke in tongues..."

2. The second issue is that nowhere in the New Testament does it say or teach that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit were just for the first century. Paul did not teach that these were going to pass away. He told the Corinthian church that when he went to visit them he wanted to see not just the word, but the power.

The supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit, especially the gift of healing were essential for drawing people together to hear the gospel. They account for the amazing growth of the church in the book of Acts where thousands came to Christ at once. Why was that? The ministry of Peter and John had a strong healing component to it, and this drew people from all over the region, and they got healed. Then they asked about whose power made this possible. Peter and John were then able to preach Jesus to them, and thousands came to Christ.

These days, we are lucky to see two or three come to Christ at one time, and yet in our generation never was there more of a need for the gospel to be preached with power. The reason why not many come to Christ as compared to the book of Acts is that the majority of churches do not believe in the supernatural power of God that should accompany the Gospel. They are trying to win souls to Christ with words only, without the power.

We need the supernatural gifts of the Spirit in these days of apostacy where the Christian church is declining. In 10 years times it has been predicted that only 10 percent of our population will be church goers. This can only be turned around by demonstrations of God's supernatural power. This will draw people together to say "Where did you get that power to heal people?" Then you will be able to preach the gospel convincingly and see thousands come to Christ at one time like in the book of Acts.

I guess though that those who are saying we don't need the gifts today, are also saying that they don't care whether people come to Christ or not. Maybe the Holy Spirit needs to speak to them and give them a hunger to see souls saved. Maybe they are indifferent to people going to hell. They would rather hold onto their pet theories and see people fall into Hell. Maybe they just don't love God or their neighbour enough to seek God for his supernatural power to keep souls out of Hell.

3. The third issue is that people would like to believe that the gifts are for today, but they are put off by seeing things that have upset their natural minds. They have forgotten that God uses the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. The preaching of the Cross is foolishness to a worldly mind.

Therefore the concept of speaking in tongues is foolishness to a mind and heart that is half in the world. Carnal Christians tend to shy away from anything to do with God's supernatural power because if they were exposed to it, their own carnal, worldly hearts would be exposed for all to see.

A carnal Christian loves words, but he has that form of godliness (ie the appearance of Christianity) but denies the power of it. The supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit are the powerful tools that God has given the church to win souls for Christ. But carnal Christians would rather have their 'bless me' services and have their reserved pews and have their ears tickled with New Age teaching and religious jargon, but when there is talk about receiving the power of God, they say "No, No, it's not for today. It passed away when the last Apostle died; or tongues are supposed to be real languages spoken to Jews, or other things like that. When I hear things like that, I know that I am hearing a carnal Christian talking.

Real, spiritual Christians who love the Lord intensely and have a deep burden and love for souls will welcome anything that will help them win souls for Christ. Therefore, if they hear that speaking in tongues, prophesying, praying for healing, having words of knowledge or wisdom, is going to build them up and make them more powerful in winning souls for Christ, they will welcome it, receive it, and speak it and practice it as much as possible.

 

[mourningdove~]

...The supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit, especially the gift of healing were essential for drawing people together to hear the gospel. They account for the amazing growth of the church in the book of Acts where thousands came to Christ at once. Why was that? The ministry of Peter and John had a strong healing component to it, and this drew people from all over the region, and they got healed. Then they asked about whose power made this possible. Peter and John were then able to preach Jesus to them, and thousands came to Christ.

... The reason why not many come to Christ as compared to the book of Acts is that the majority of churches do not believe in the supernatural power of God that should accompany the Gospel. They are trying to win souls to Christ with words only, without the power.

We need the supernatural gifts of the Spirit in these days of apostacy where the Christian church is declining. In 10 years times it has been predicted that only 10 percent of our population will be church goers. This can only be turned around by demonstrations of God's supernatural power. This will draw people together to say "Where did you get that power to heal people?" Then you will be able to preach the gospel convincingly and see thousands come to Christ at one time like in the book of Acts.

Amen!

"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8)
Praise the Lord!

 

[cruztacean]

There are some points that I want to make about the gift of tongues:

(snipped for space)

Real, spiritual Christians who love the Lord intensely and have a deep burden and love for souls will welcome anything that will help them win souls for Christ. Therefore, if they hear that speaking in tongues, prophesying, praying for healing, having words of knowledge or wisdom, is going to build them up and make them more powerful in winning souls for Christ, they will welcome it, receive it, and speak it and practice it as much as possible.

Yes!!! Praise God!

God's Word says that we should always be prepared to give a defense, a reason for the hope that is in us. Well done.

I feel a need to address some concerns brought up by two of our brothers. Yes, the gift can unfortunately be faked. So can prophecy. So can love, for that matter. It can also be seriously underdeveloped. I too have heard the repetition of the same three or four syllables. I've also heard a preacher comment on it; spiritually it is not a faked language but "baby talk." Now, "baby talk" is as precious in God's eyes as the stumbling speech of our own small children is to us as earthly parents. We should be growing, but some grow faster than others. One thing I do know: I am not faking. I don't know what I'm saying, in the sense that I could not translate it into English for the benefit of someone else, but that leads me to the second concern. What good is being accomplished? Any time I am praying in tongues I always end up in an attitude of joyful praise to God, and I have observed the same thing with others. This cannot be a bad thing.

Through my own observation, by the way, when people tend to repeat the same handful of syllables in tongues, they also tend to alternate it with repeating the same brief praises in English. You will hear, "{tongue, tounge, tounge}, hallelujah, praise Jesus, {tongue, tounge}, praise you Jesus, {tongue, tongue}, hallelujah." I would venture to guess that they are interpreting their own tongue phrases.

There are some times when I am nearly overwhelmed with a need or desire to pray, but I haven't the foggiest what to pray about. This is when tongues are of the most service to me.

 

[onelamb]

According to the scripture examples-speaking in tongues is evidence that we have been baptised in the Holy Spirit-this tongue is NOT for everyones ears-but it is for speaking to God.
The gift of tongues-is the manifestation of tongues in the congregation-a totally different thing-and must be interpreted so that the church can be edified.'
All Christians can and should be baptised in the Spirit-they will be able to pray in other tongues. However, not all Christians have the gift of tongues.
Makes sense to me.

 

[lismore]

The best way to deal with someone who refutes the gifts of the spirit is for that deluded person to meet the Holy SPirit and be empowered as Jesus said in Acts 1v8.

Without this empowerment they will be always [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] footing around.

Sad but true.

 

[cruztacean]

The best way to deal with someone who refutes the gifts of the spirit is for that deluded person to meet the Holy SPirit and be empowered as Jesus said in Acts 1v8.

Without this empowerment they will be always [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] footing around.

Sad but true.

You said it, brother! It's like those who seek to "prove" the existence of God. The best way is to meet Him. As Jesus told Nicodemus, you can't see the wind, but you can see what it's doing to the trees when it blows through, can't you?