Refreshing...If There Were Only More Black Leaders Like This One...

[rturner76]

I suppose we could teach children this....but just like the Tulsa race massacre, I'd probably want to emphasize that these people were acting out of circumstances considered normal for their time and place. It's not a reflection on anyone today nor should we judge anyone by the actions of people who shared a skin tone with them from the past.

That is right, it was considered normal at the time. Just like it's normal for cops to kill. What I don't understand is thinking that a society built on those values is going to have residual effects on society for a number of generations.

When those mismatched rules were put in place, it allowed Europeans of a certain ilk to amass vast fortunes and hold government offices, even private navies, and militia. All of these old rich families pass down their money and pedigree. Yes we are still connected to those times, by blood. Those old families still control banking. government. and. major industries.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That is right, it was considered normal at the time.

Right.

Just like it's normal for cops to kill.

Or how we used to view child labor.

What I don't understand is thinking that a society built on those values is going to have residual effects on society for a number of generations.

What values are you referring to?

The right to own property is probably the most litigated right we value....but I'd argue that the concept Mills put forward about the importance of freedom of speech and thought and belief is arguably the one that was considered highest of all.

When those mismatched rules were put in place,

What mismatched rules?

Slavery in the US is generally agreed upon as being kept in place for 2 very different reasons.

Pre 1840 (I think, I don't recall the general date historians used) it was considered a "regrettable but necessary evil" as there simply weren't enough cheap laborers in the new colonies to do the work to pay their colonial masters.

It wasn't until after (again 1840?) things like the revolution and abolition movements and the theory of race came into play that the argument for slavery was more like what you probably imagine it was. All "that's their natural condition as God made them" sorts of stuff.

it allowed Europeans of a certain ilk to amass vast fortunes and hold government offices, even private navies, and militia. All of these old rich families pass down their money and pedigree. Yes we are still connected to those times, by blood. Those old families still control banking. government. and. major industries.

Wow. Like who?

 

[RDKirk]

That is right, it was considered normal at the time. Just like it's normal for cops to kill. What I don't understand is thinking that a society built on those values is not going to have residual effects on society for a number of generations.

When those mismatched rules were put in place, it allowed Europeans of a certain ilk to amass vast fortunes and hold government offices, even private navies, and militia. All of these old rich families pass down their money and pedigree. Yes we are still connected to those times, by blood. Those old families still control banking. government. and. major industries.

I think you omitted a "not" in your first paragraph, as shown. If that's the case, I agree.

 

[rturner76]

What values are you referring to?

The concept of "White is right"

It wasn't until after (again 1840?) things like the revolution and abolition movements and the theory of race came into play that the argument for slavery was more like what you probably imagine it was. All "that's their natural condition as God made them" sorts of stuff.

Are you talking about when they passed the law that said only blacks could be enslaved? Do you think that is the moment whites started looking at black differently?

 

[rturner76]

What mismatched rules?

The unequal civil right and slavery laws were pretty biased wouldn't you say?

The right to own property is probably the most litigated right we value....but I'd argue that the concept Mills put forward about the importance of freedom of speech and thought and belief is arguably the one that was considered highest of all.

The right to own property also included black human beings don't you know this already? those racist values permeate our society from the culture that was created by these unfair laws.

I don't know the names of all the people who came from old money but I know Mitch McConnell's family owned slaves. That family was able to retain power through the generations. There are millions of people who pass down money and with it, many inherit an attitude of superiority. Many whites feel superior for their history of being able to subjugate much of the world. They seem to think it's their inheritance.

 

[BigDaddy4]

The unequal civil right and slavery laws were pretty biased wouldn't you say?
The right to own property also included black human beings don't you know this already? those racist values permeate our society from the culture that was created by these unfair laws.

I don't know the names of all the people who came from old money but I know Mitch McConnell's family owned slaves. That family was able to retain power through the generations. There are millions of people who pass down money and with it, many inherit an attitude of superiority. Many whites feel superior for their history of being able to subjugate much of the world. They seem to think it's their inheritance.

A segment of my ancestors owned slaves and ran a plantation. Another ancestor helped oversee Thomas Jefferson's slaves on his plantation. I don't "feel superior" for it, nor have I or my family retained "power through the generations" because of it. Any substantial monies gained from it must've went to a different branch of the family tree. And I certainly do not feel the need for any reparations because of my ancestors.

IMO, your overgeneralizations about "millions" are absurd. Slavery happened. Get over it.

 

[rturner76]

A segment of my ancestors owned slaves and ran a plantation. Another ancestor helped oversee Thomas Jefferson's slaves on his plantation. I don't "feel superior" for it, nor have I or my family retained "power through the generations" because of it. Any substantial monies gained from it must've went to a different branch of the family tree. And I certainly do not feel the need for any reparations because of my ancestors.

IMO, your overgeneralizations about "millions" are absurd. Slavery happened. Get over it.

"Slavery happened, get over it" In other words "white makes right?"

You should ask the other branch of the family to start kicking in a little for the good of the family. Tell them if they don't, you will become a Liberal. That should shake loose the pockets.

Still, better your ancestors owned slaved instead of being owned. Stronger roots on the 'ol family tree.

 

[rturner76]

: Numbers 14
: The LORD is long-suffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and fourth generation.

You know, we might just be hitting on the fourth-generation........All is forgiven, racism will soon be erased!.

Seriously though, I don't believe this is God cursing the nation for 3-4 generations, but it illustrates how the choices of a previous generation can set you back for generations. Enter slavery/Jim Crow.

 

[rjs330]

Facts are a good place to start but I prefer my preconceived notions, they are much more facty.

Yeah live the facts in post 143. Those are facts. A quite frankly very pertinent to the discussion. The Britannica article is totally devoid of the history behind the movement and is so narrowly focused as to miss the other facts surrounding the theory. Which is also based on preconceived notions. If one fails to understand the history and facts behind the theory and the "rest of the story", one fails to have all the facts.

 

[rturner76]

Yeah live the facts in post 143. Those are facts. A quite frankly very pertinent to the discussion. The Britannica article is totally devoid of the history behind the movement and is so narrowly focused as to miss the other facts surrounding the theory. Which is also based on preconceived notions. If one fails to understand the history and facts behind the theory and the "rest of the story", one fails to have all the facts.

So the tenets in the Britannica article are false? I think the article highlighted what the theory actually is. Not liking the facts does not make them false.

Post #143 is far more opinion than fact. The Communist conspiracy rears its head as soon as the conservatives start losing traction in a debate.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The concept of "White is right"

And who do you think holds that concept?

Are you talking about when they passed the law that said only blacks could be enslaved? Do you think that is the moment whites started looking at black differently?

Nooooo...definitely not. No white people expected to find vast sophisticated ancient exotic cities across the globe. They didn't.

That's when they started really considering why.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The unequal civil right and slavery laws were pretty biased wouldn't you say?

Sure.

The right to own property also included black human beings don't you know this already?

Yeah....just like in Africa.

those racist values permeate our society from the culture that was created by these unfair laws.

How so?

I don't know the names of all the people who came from old money but I know Mitch McConnell's family owned slaves. That family was able to retain power through the generations. There are millions of people who pass down money and with it, many inherit an attitude of superiority. Many whites feel superior for their history of being able to subjugate much of the world. They seem to think it's their inheritance.

Here an interesting survey 2019....courtesy of Pew...

So apparently, us whites care the least about race when it comes to our identity. Black people care the most...

You think it's possible that you just imagine everyone sees everything in a racial context because that's the way you see it and any alternative is too difficult to imagine?

 

[Aryeh Jay]

A segment of my ancestors owned slaves and ran a plantation. Another ancestor helped oversee Thomas Jefferson's slaves on his plantation. I don't "feel superior" for it, nor have I or my family retained "power through the generations" because of it. Any substantial monies gained from it must've went to a different branch of the family tree. And I certainly do not feel the need for any reparations because of my ancestors.

IMO, your overgeneralizations about "millions" are absurd. Slavery happened. Get over it.

You wouldn't happen to be related to Thomas Chambers from the 1800s?

 

[BigDaddy4]

"Slavery happened, get over it" In other words "white makes right?"

You should ask the other branch of the family to start kicking in a little for the good of the family. Tell them if they don't, you will become a Liberal. That should shake loose the pockets.

Still, better your ancestors owned slaved instead of being owned. Stronger roots on the 'ol family tree.

Your words, not mine. But keep pushing your narrative, I suppose?

You know what else is in my family tree? Japanese Americans who were forced into internment camps during WW2. They had businesses, jobs, homes, families taken from them. Guess what they did upon release? They rebuilt their lives to become business owners, architects, and other successful careers. Their kids and grandkids earned academic scholarships to Ivy league schools and places like Stanford and Cal Berkeley.

Slavery in the US was abolished in 1865. How much longer do you want to keep using that as an excuse for black people? Are they not capable of making better lives for themselves?

 

[BigDaddy4]

You wouldn't happen to be related to Thomas Chambers from the 1800s?

Not that I'm aware of.

 

[SummerMadness]

Your words, not mine. But keep pushing your narrative, I suppose?

You know what else is in my family tree? Japanese Americans who were forced into internment camps during WW2. They had businesses, jobs, homes, families taken from them. Guess what they did upon release? They rebuilt their lives to become business owners, architects, and other successful careers. Their kids and grandkids earned academic scholarships to Ivy league schools and places like Stanford and Cal Berkeley.

Slavery in the US was abolished in 1865. How much longer do you want to keep using that as an excuse for black people? Are they not capable of making better lives for themselves?

Black people did the same, but they had their homes bombed and burned, they were lynched, and prevented from pursuing life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Nonetheless, many Black people succeeded; they succeeded despite racial terrorism.

The Tulsa massacre wasn't an isolated event. These are some of the others

The big racist lie is people keep arguing as if Black people have done nothing since the end of the Civil War. The big racist lie is to pretend as if racial terrorism did not play a big role in hindering progress. The big racist lie is to ignore the many communities that were destroyed simply because there were white people that felt Black people were being uppity by starting a business or buying a home. If someone burnt down your house and/or business, and you received no compensation, that is likely to hurt you and your family.

But there is important factor you missed in your dismissiveness of Black Americans: Japanese Americans who were victims of internment received reparations. Meanwhile, survivors of the Tulsa massacre never received recompense.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Not that I'm aware of.

No worries,

 

[BigDaddy4]

Black people did the same, but they had their homes bombed and burned, they were lynched, and prevented from pursuing life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Nonetheless, many Black people succeeded; they succeeded despite racial terrorism.

The Tulsa massacre wasn't an isolated event. These are some of the others

The big racist lie is people keep arguing as if Black people have done nothing since the end of the Civil War. The big racist lie is to pretend as if racial terrorism did not play a big role in hindering progress. The big racist lie is to ignore the many communities that were destroyed simply because there were white people that felt Black people were being uppity by starting a business or buying a home. If someone burnt down your house and/or business, and you received no compensation, that is likely to hurt you and your family.

But there is important factor you missed in your dismissiveness of Black Americans: Japanese Americans who were victims of internment received reparations. Meanwhile, survivors of the Tulsa massacre never received recompense.

Yep, keep pushing your narrative. It's always something or someone else's fault. If you keep playing the perpetual victim card, then you will perpetually be the victim.

 

[rturner76]

And who do you think holds that concept?

Most white guys I know. They hide it and deny it but I see it all the time in the attitude. Like the way you dismiss racism as a once in a while occourance. You know that because you know everything it seems. Namely how blacks are treated in America. You seem to know better than black folks how racism affects them.

Nooooo...definitely not. No white people expected to find vast sophisticated ancient exotic cities across the globe. They didn't.

Is that why they stayed and raped the gold and other natural resources because they found nothing? Empires like Kush, Carthage, Eqypt, Ethiopia, all rich in ebony, gold, myrrh and exotic animals They found a rich land and kings that had more gold than they knew what to do with. They quickly separated the native people from their riches and resources. They are still there exploiting the natives and their land. Now the former colonizers are "businessmen.". They figure they can take what they want and leave the mess for future generations to clean up (diamond mining for one with their cyanide runoff). Sort of like they burned the largest library known to man at the time in Alexandria, just so people couldn't get a high-level education there.

You think it's possible that you just imagine everyone sees everything in a racial context because that's the way you see it and any alternative is too difficult to imagine?

This is the crux of it. You dismiss people's personal experience with racism to suit your worldview that everything's fine and racism is imagined.

White makes right=You don't see racism so there is no racism. Forget about what people say they experience, they are probably either lying or mistaken is that it? I don't know when being treated differently is?

 

[rturner76]

Your words, not mine. But keep pushing your narrative, I suppose?

You know what else is in my family tree? Japanese Americans who were forced into internment camps during WW2. They had businesses, jobs, homes, families taken from them. Guess what they did upon release? They rebuilt their lives to become business owners, architects, and other successful careers. Their kids and grandkids earned academic scholarships to Ivy league schools and places like Stanford and Cal Berkeley.

Slavery in the US was abolished in 1865. How much longer do you want to keep using that as an excuse for black people? Are they not capable of making better lives for themselves?

You don't get it. It is the system this country was built on and racist white people still run this country. Japanese weren't even encamped for a generation. Blacks had 400 years of subjugation. It leaves an impression on society.

If you can't see it it's because you don't want to.