Reformed Only! Masoretic Text (MT)

mark kennedy

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Have you heard the quote:

"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." Well, I'm doing the same. I'm building on the groundwork laid out before me.

I found out in seminary, that while in High school, I could have cared less, but in seminary, I have a very good knack for "research".

I have about 20 or 30 scholarly articles on OT Textual criticism. And even though its a pain, I have check their references as well.

But I also will say in confidence, that there has been nowhere near as much "textual criticism" of the Old Testament, as there as been on the New Testament.

So, I'll repeat this one more time:



And again, I'm still getting the distinct impression that I should not be questioning the "text" of the OT at all. Since we have nothing that dates back to that era at all. Only copies of copies of copies. (Same in the NT, copies of copies of copies)

Anyhow, just wanted to say that.

God Bless

Till all are one.
I appreciate your diligence given to the seriousness of the subject matter, don't let that throw you. We learned how to preserve sacred writings from our Jewish ancestors who had the scrolls of the Law and the prophets in the synagogues and took faithful preservation deadly serious. Did you know that John Mark and Barnabas were Levites, I suspect they had invaluable training in how to copy a sacred text faithfully.

I heard a rule of thumb once and it has served me well over the years, a question well asked is a question half answered. Of course you will question it but care must be exercised to take the time to get into the details. Those copies of the copies represent the best preserved documents from antiquity, there is no close second. Does that mean we can never question them? Of course not, we should always be the worst critics of our own sacred literature and still maintain a confidence of the fidelity of our spiritual ancestors who did whatever they had to to preserve those writings as those who answer to God for their workmanship.

Inevitably, there are errors, it's a mark of human handling. If you really think about it it's also a mark of authenticity because if it was perfect, that would be a big warning flag that it is disingenuous. If you are uncritical of the text your not doing your job as an exegetical scholar, there is no room in Christian scholarship, especially from a Reformation perspective, for someone who is mindlessly uncritical. But be careful as you swim through the details, your best insights might not be in the minute details but things you gain insights from from the corner of your eye.

Oh and BTW, I do remember the quote from Sir Isaac Newton who said, 'if I seen further then any who came before me it's because I stood on the shoulders of giants'. This was the man who developed calculus and inductive science as we understand it. He crystallized the collective works of the Scientific Revolution that grew up alongside the Protestant Reformation and in the wake of the Protestant Reformation as western thinking wrestled itself from the clutches of Aristotelian Scholasticism. Physics was born, calculus, the theory of light and I could make a very long list of landmark achievements.

Right now, you stand on the shoulders of giants, from Christ and the Apostles to an army of scribes, monks and Rabbinical scholars who devoted their lives to preserving God's precious gift of the revelation we know as Scripture. There is nothing wrong with feeling dwarfed by it all. That is the still small voice of reason whispering in your ear, you are but one man, embrace the fidelity and discipline that brought these most holy texts to you in the first place.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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redleghunter

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In reality, so far as I have read, the DSS agrees more often with the LXX than it does the MT and both point to a "text" older than that of Ezra's.

But, I haven't really spent that much time in the DSS. Only periodically reading it to verify points on either side.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Recommend FF Bruce's book on Qumran.
 
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redleghunter

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Modern textual witchcraft is alive and well giving those with itchy ears what they want to hear.

Quote:

The lump of carbonized parchment could not be opened or read. Its curators did nothing but conserve it, hoping that new technology might one day emerge to make the scroll legible.

Just such a technology has now been perfected by computer scientists at the University of Kentucky. Working with biblical scholars in Jerusalem, they have used a computer to unfurl a digital image of the scroll.

It turns out to hold a fragment identical to the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible and, at nearly 2,000 years old, is the earliest instance of the text.

Modern Technology Unlocks Secrets of a Damaged Biblical Scroll

Yours in the Lord,

jm
Thanks for that link. I finished recently FF Bruce's

https://www.amazon.com/Second-Thoughts-Dead-Sea-Scrolls/dp/1597527009

It's an older book but great book for those wanting to dig a bit deeper into the discoveries and scholarship on the Qumran community.

This is a great site for actual digital copies of the findings:

Digital Dead Sea Scrolls
 
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redleghunter

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I am still waiting for someone to show me where I may obtain a copy of the Greek LXX for reference purposes. Not a Greek translation of Daniel, or of Isaiah, or any other individual book, but a Greek translation of the Old Testament which is known to have been available during the time of Christ. ;)
On the bolded, I bring this up to posters of the RC and EO persuasion. Same thing, I get nothing.
 
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DeaconDean

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Recommend FF Bruce's book on Qumran.

I have this:

th


God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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On the bolded, I bring this up to posters of the RC and EO persuasion. Same thing, I get nothing.

And you wont either.

By the same token, I would also ask for anybody to show me a "Codex" in its entirety of the New Testament prior to the Codex Sinaiticus. (Circa 4th century)

How many times was Luke's book of Acts copied between AD 65 and the Codex Siniaticus?

How many pieces or fragments of scripture have been found that date back to their original writing?

So when somebody asks about a known to exist LXX that dates back to Christ's time, I can also say with complete confidence that the earliest known Greek MSS of scripture is only a fragment, and only dates to around AD 170.

As much as I hate to rely completely on the ECF's as some do, in some cases, they are completely correct. Up until Augustine's time, some of the ECF's attested to the MT of AD 160 being "corrupt".

Here, I cite:

"The circumstances in Palestine during the middle of the second century AD provided an ideal opportunity for the keepers of the remaining Jewish Scriptures to corrupt their texts without leaving behind a trail of evidence in the Hebrew manuscripts. Numerous church fathers testify to the lengths to which orthodox Judaism went to discredit Jesus' Messianic office, a phenomenon also recorded throughout the book of Acts. Justin Martyr says that the Rabbis deliberately expunged or altered Messianic verses from their Scriptures in their project of discrediting Lord Jesus as Messiah (e.g., see Dial. 71). According to Justin, the second-century Jews were still promulgating the lie that the disciples had stolen Christ's body from the tomb (cf. Mt 28:13-15). Augustine writes that "the Jews, envying us for our translation of their Law and Prophets, have made alterations in their texts to undermine the authority of ours" (Civ. 15.11)."

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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redleghunter

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And you wont either.

By the same token, I would also ask for anybody to show me a "Codex" in its entirety of the New Testament prior to the Codex Sinaiticus. (Circa 4th century)

How many times was Luke's book of Acts copied between AD 65 and the Codex Siniaticus?

How many pieces or fragments of scripture have been found that date back to their original writing?

So when somebody asks about a known to exist LXX that dates back to Christ's time, I can also say with complete confidence that the earliest known Greek MSS of scripture is only a fragment, and only dates to around AD 170.

As much as I hate to rely completely on the ECF's as some do, in some cases, they are completely correct. Up until Augustine's time, some of the ECF's attested to the MT of AD 160 being "corrupt".

Here, I cite:

"The circumstances in Palestine during the middle of the second century AD provided an ideal opportunity for the keepers of the remaining Jewish Scriptures to corrupt their texts without leaving behind a trail of evidence in the Hebrew manuscripts. Numerous church fathers testify to the lengths to which orthodox Judaism went to discredit Jesus' Messianic office, a phenomenon also recorded throughout the book of Acts. Justin Martyr says that the Rabbis deliberately expunged or altered Messianic verses from their Scriptures in their project of discrediting Lord Jesus as Messiah (e.g., see Dial. 71). According to Justin, the second-century Jews were still promulgating the lie that the disciples had stolen Christ's body from the tomb (cf. Mt 28:13-15). Augustine writes that "the Jews, envying us for our translation of their Law and Prophets, have made alterations in their texts to undermine the authority of ours" (Civ. 15.11)."

God Bless

Till all are one.
Thanks for that.

In your research did you look at the scholarship of the actual manuscripts Jerome worked with in Palestine when translating the Hebrew OT to Latin Vulgate? I’m asking because I’ve only scratched the surface.

Did he comment on whether the texts were corrupted intentionally or did he have confidence in them?
 
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Discuss amongst yourselves, I'll let this thread stand one more day, then ask for it to be closed, and I'll delete all my remarks.

Sorry to have disturbed the peace.

Bowing out gracefully.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Keep it going brother, it's just a discussion, and your remarks are informative and helpful to the discussion. Please don't get bent out of shape, or make a mountain out of a molehill. I would have more to say, but I really know so little about OT criticism. God bless you, and Merry Christmas!
 
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DeaconDean

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Thanks for that.

In your research did you look at the scholarship of the actual manuscripts Jerome worked with in Palestine when translating the Hebrew OT to Latin Vulgate? I’m asking because I’ve only scratched the surface.

Did he comment on whether the texts were corrupted intentionally or did he have confidence in them?

Comparing the two existing OT codices, with the LXX, by comparison, the LXX in the Torah bears a truer record than the two existing Hebrew codices.

And as far as research bears out, so far, the DSS agrees with the LXX in that one area.

But here's the kicker to the whole deal.

Just as there are not Greek MSS within the first century and a half, there are no Hebrew codices that date any earlier than AD 160. And we know for a fact, those codices were corrupt.

Point is: if you start with a corrupt text, your going to end with a corrupt text. You cannot edit out corruption.

What it boils down to is this: things would be a whole lot different, if somebody discovered a codex of ancient Hebrew that was at least 3000 years old. That would settle the question once and for all. Same for NT textual criticism. It would be great if we found a codex from around AD 100. That would more than likely settle the Alexandrian, Byzantine, Caesarian, etc question.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Keep it going brother, it's just a discussion, and your remarks are informative and helpful to the discussion. Please don't get bent out of shape, or make a mountain out of a molehill. I would have more to say, but I really know so little about OT criticism. God bless you, and Merry Christmas!

I know there are more intelligent, smarter members here than I.

But, that being said, there is no excuse to beat over the head saying WCF 1.8 says this, or that. The Westminster Confession of Faith is a good one, but it is not my "rule".

Dr. Jimmy Draper wrote:

"A Creed is not a revelation of divine truth; it is not a rule of faith and practice,
but it is a help in both. Creeds have no authority over conscience."

And I agree.

It also don't help discussion asking for an LXX or Hebrew codices that date back to Jesus' time as they don't exist, and they know that.

You know, it took some time after taking Greek in seminary for me to realize and find out just how many times the KJV renders thing not quite "correct".

Not once in any of the scriptures will you find the phrase "holy ghost". Or: "Φάντασμά ἅγιον" (Holy Phantasma) but I have seen "πνεῦμα ἅγιον" (Holy Spirit) plenty of times.

So should it come as a surprise that there are "mistakes" in the MT?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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JM

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I don't want to be contentious or derail the thread but it's important to make note that the Reformation was based on the idea that the Bible we hold in our hands is trustworthy. That is is complete and preserved. So I add this post to add a Reformed perspective.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Source linked below:

The Preservation of Scripture


preservation_of_scripture.png


One of the benefits that God gave Israel as his covenanted people was committing to them the oracles of God. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God (Rom. 3:1-2). As the Gentile Church has been made partaker in the spiritual benefits that Israel once enjoyed (cf. Eph. 2:12-13; Mat. 21:43), we rightly conclude that the oracles of God are committed to us as the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15), and his covenanted people. Commenting on Romans 3:2, Calvin writes:

“By oracles he means the covenant which God revealed first to Abraham and to his posterity, and afterwards sealed and unfolded by the law and the Prophets.

Now the oracles were committed to them, for the purpose of preserving them as long as it pleased the Lord to continue his glory among them, and then of publishing them during the time of their stewardship through the whole world: they were first depositories, and secondly dispensers. But if this benefit was to be so highly esteemed when the Lord favored one nation only with the revelation of his word, we can never sufficiently reprobate our ingratitude, who receive his word with so much negligence or with so much carelessness, not to say disdain.”

John Calvin, Commentary on Romans, Ch. 3

The Westminster Confession of Faith states that God by “his singular care and providence kept [the Scriptures] pure in all ages” and they “are therefore authentic” (WCF 1.8). The question we now seek to address is, Has God preserved His word? More specifically, has God preserved His word in such a way that His word has been kept pure in the possession of His Church in all ages, thus committing His oracles to them. This question is of the utmost importance, for the word of God, the Holy Scripture, is the source of all saving knowledge. Without the word of the living God, we would be lost; as Peter said, “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:68).

“Have the original texts of the Old and New Testaments come down to us pure and un corrupted? We affirm against the papists.

I. This question lies between us and the papists who speak against the purity of the sources for the purpose of establishing more easily the authority of their Vulgate version and leading us away to the tribunal of the church.

Il. By the original texts, we do not mean the autographs written by the hand of Moses, of the prophets and of the apostles, which certainly do not now exist. We mean their apographs which are so called because they set forth to us the word of God in the very words of those who wrote under the immediate inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Ill. The question is not Are the sources so pure that no fault has crept into the many sacred manuscripts, either through the waste of time, the carelessness of copyists or the malice of the Jews or of heretics? For this is acknowledged on both sides and the various readings which Beza and Robert Stephanus have carefully observed in the Greek (and the Jews in the Hebrew) clearly prove it. Rather the question is have the original texts (or the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts) been so corrupted either by copyists through carelessness (or by the Jews and heretics through malice) that they can no longer be regarded as the judge of controversies and the rule to which all the versions must be applied? The papists affirm, we deny it.”

Francis Turretin, Institutes of Elenctic Theology Vol. 1, p. 106

We do not deny the necessity of textual criticism. We readily acknowledge it. We deny, however, that the the true text of Scripture has been lost with the non-extant autographs written by the hands of the Apostles and Prophets. On the contrary, we affirm, with Turretin, that the infallible, inerrant word of God exists today in the apographs which have been in the possession of the Church in every age.

“It can, then, with no colour of probability be asserted (which yet I find some learned men too free in granting), namely, that there hath the same fate attended the Scripture in its transcription as hath done other books. Let me say without offence, this imagination, asserted on deliberation, seems to me to border on atheism. Surely the promise of God for the preservation of his word, with his love and care of his church, of whose faith and obedience that word of his is the only rule, requires other thoughts at our hands. We add that the whole scripture entire, as given out from God, without any loss, is preserved in the Copies of the Originals yet remaining; What varieties there are among the Copies themselves shall be afterwards declared; in them all, we say, is every letter and Tittle of the Word. These Copies we say, are the Rule, standard and touch-stone of all Translations ancient or modern, by which they are in all things to be examined, tried, corrected, amended, and themselves only by themselves.”

John Owen, Of the Divine Original, Authority, Self-Evidencing Light, and Power of the Scriptures, p. 173-174

The question is not whether textual criticism is necessary; rather, it is whether, once due diligence in textual criticism has been done by the Church in any age using the extant manuscripts in her possession, we have the inspired, infallible, and inerrant word of God. We affirm.

Hence, the providence of God showed itself as no less concerned with the preservation of the writings than of the doctrine contained in them, the writing itself being the product of his own eternal counsel for the preservation of the doctrine, after a sufficient discovery of the insufficiency of all other means for that end and purpose…It is true, we have not the autographa of Moses and the prophets, of the apostles and evangelists, but the apographa, or copies, which contain every iota [every bit] that was in them.

Ibid., p.12-13

This point by Owen is essential to grasp. We believe that the entirety of the Holy Scripture is and was contained in the copies which have been in the possession of the Church throughout the ages. Hence, those copies are sufficient for whatever textual criticism needs to be done. No new discovery of manuscripts needed. We therefore reject the notion that the manuscripts which have been in the possession of the Church in every age are to be corrected by manuscripts that have been hidden under a rock (so to speak) for 1500 years. This would be to deny that God has preserved His word as pure in all ages, and that the Church was left with a corrupted text for many centuries.

From the testimony of Scripture itself it can be shown that God would providentially preserve His word in all ages. It cannot, however, be shown from Scripture that God would leave His Church with text so corrupted that it could be remedied with the extant manuscripts in the possession of the Church. We reject the idea that God would leave His Church with manuscripts with variants, errors, omissions, or additions that could not be remedied with the copies in her possession in each age, as a borderline atheistic notion.

“Proof is derived: (l) from the testimony of Christ—“it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail” (Lk. 16:17; cf. Mt. 5:18). But if not even one tittle (or the smallest letter) could fail, how could several canonical books perish? Although Christ speaks directly of the doctrine of the law and not of its books, yet it can be applied analogically to them, so as to imply their preservation and so much the more”

Francis Turretin, Institutes of Elenctic Theology Vol. 1, p. 96

Turretin here argues against the idea that any canonical book has perished, and since the books of the canon include the text of those books, and not simply their titles, his understanding of Luke 16:17 & Matt. 5:18 militates against the idea that the text which God providentially delivered to His church was so collectively corrupted with errors, additions, and omissions that it could not be remedied with the manuscripts in the possession of the church. If indeed God has by “his singular care and providence kept [the Scriptures] pure in all ages” and they “are therefore authentic” (WCF 1.8), which He verily has, then we must reject the idea that He has suffered His church to have a corrupted text for centuries upon centuries. If we deny that God has providentially preserved His word as pure in all ages, then we must grant that we do not have the infallible, inerrant word of God in our possession today, for any given passage in the text might not actually be Scripture. We would be in constant pursuit of a theoretical text to which the extant text must be restored. If “older” manuscripts were newly discovered and they did not have John 3:16, Romans 9, or some other beloved passage, we would have no objective reason not to conclude that those passages are not Scripture. However, when we affirm God’s providential preservation of Scripture, we know that such corruptions to the text of Scripture in the possession of the Church in all ages would not be allowed in God’s providence.

“The providence of God proves that the sources have not been corrupted.

V. The following arguments prove that the sources have not been corrupted. (1) The providence of God which could not permit books which it willed to be written by inspiration (theopneustois) for the salvation of men (and to continue unto the end of the world that they might draw from them waters of salvation) to become so corrupted as to render them unfit for this purpose. And since new revelations are not to be expected (after God has recorded in the Scriptures his entire will concerning the doctrine of salvation), what can be more derogatory to God (who has promised his constant presence with the church) than to assert that he has permitted the books containing this doctrine to become so corrupt that they cannot serve as a canon of faith? (2) The fidelity of the Christian church and unceasing labor in preserving the manuscripts; for since Christians have always labored with great zeal to keep this sacred deposit uncorrupted, it is not credible that they would either corrupt it themselves or suffer it to be corrupted by others. (3) The religion of the Jews who have bestowed upon the sacred manuscripts great care and labor amounting even to superstition. Hence Josephus says that after the lapse of ages no one has dared either to add to or take away from or alter the peculiar books of the Jews in any respect and that they think it an honor to die for the Scriptures (Against Apion 1*.42 [Loeb, 1:180-81]). Philo, in his book on the departure of the Israelites from Egypt (cited by Eusebius, Preparation for the Gospel 8.6.357c [ed. Gifford, 1903], 1:387) goes further, asserting that “even up to his time, through a space of more than two thousand years, not so much as a word had been changed in the law of the Hebrews and that any Jew would rather die a hundred times, than suffer the law to be altered in the least.” They carry their ridiculous superstition concerning the sacred manuscript to such a length that if a corrected book of the law fell on the ground, they proclaimed a fast and expressed their fears that the whole universe would return to its original chaos, so far were they from corrupting the manuscripts. (4) The carefulness of the Masoretes not only about verses and words, but also about single letters (which, together with all the variations of punctuation and writing, they not only counted, but also wrote down, so that no ground or even suspicion of corruption could arise). Arias Montanus employs this argument in the “Praefatio” to his Biblia sacra Hebraicey Chaldaice, Graece et Latine (1572), vol. I. (5) The multitude of copies; for as the manuscripts were scattered far and wide, how could they all be corrupted either by the carelessness Of librarians or the wickedness of enemies? Augustine says, “No prudent man can believe that the Jews however perverse and wicked could do it, in copies so numerous and so far and widely diffused” (CG 15.13* [FC 14:440; PL 41.452]). Vives said this ought to be the reply to those “who argue that the Hebrew manuscripts Of the Old Testament and the Greek of the New have been so falsified and corrupted as to make it impossible to draw the truth from these sources” (Saint Augustine, of the Citie of God with. . .comments of. . .Vives [1620], p. 519).”

Ibid., p. 107

Richard Muller notes that modern theologians, following Hodge and Warfield, have altered the doctrine of preservation so that inerrancy would only refer to the non-extant original manuscripts and not also the faithful copies we possess today:

“By ‘original and authentic‘ text, the Protestant orthodox do not mean the autographa which no one can possess but the apographa in the original tongue which are the source of all versions. The Jews throughout history and the church in the time of Christ regarded the Hebrew of the Old Testament as authentic and for nearly six centuries after Christ, the Greek of the New Testament was viewed as authentic without dispute (Leigh, Treatise, I.vi; c.f. Owen, Divine Original, in Works vol. 16, pg. 300-301). It is important to note that the Reformed orthodox insistence on the identification of the Hebrew and Greek texts as alone authentic does not demand direct reference to autographa in those languages; the ‘original and authentic text‘ of Scripture means, beyond the autograph copies, the legitimate tradition of Hebrew and Greek apographa. The case for Scripture as an infallible rule of faith and practice and the separate arguments for a received text free from major (i.e., non-scribal) errors rests on an examination of apographa and does not seek the infinite regress of the lost autographa as a prop for textual infallibility.

“A rather sharp contrast must be drawn, therefore, between the Protestant orthodox arguments concerning the autographa and the views of Archibald Alexander Hodge and Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield. This issue must be raised because of the tendency in many recent essays to confuse the two views. Like virtually all exegetes and theologians before and after them, they recognized that the text of Scripture as we now have it contains contradictory and historically problematic statements. They also recognized the futility of harmonizations of the text—but they insisted that all such difficult or erroneous passages ought to be understood as the result of scribal errors. Those who claim an errant text, against the orthodox consensus to the contrary, must prove their case. To claim errors in the scribal copies, the apographa, is hardly a proof: the claim must be proven true of the autographa. The point made by Hodge and Warfield is a logical trap, a rhetorical flourish, a conundrum designed to confound the critics—who can only prove their case for genuine errancy by recourse to a text they do not (and surely cannot) have.”

‘We … receive the Scripture in these languages only [i.e., Hebrew and Greek] as canonical and authentic. And what is more, not only the Autographa, which for many reasons belonging to the most wise counsel of divine providence, were allowed to perish: but in the Apographa as well‘ (Mastricht, Theologia Theoretico-Practica I.ii.10).

Muller, Richard A., Post Reformation Reformed Dogmatics, vol. 2, pg. 414.

This is nothing but an evasive tactic invented to sidestep liberal critics. If the Bible, as it exists today and in our possession, is not infallible, then the foundation of our faith is shaky and the critics have prevailed against us. It’s meaningless to argue for the theoretical infallibility of the non-extant autographa. We must argue for the infallibility for the Bible in our possession.

See also Letis, Theodore P., The Protestant Dogmaticians and the Late Princeton School on the Status of the Sacred Apographa.
 
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The Providence of God in Preserving Scripture


providential-preservation-bible1.png


We have written previously on The Preservation of Scripture that God has kept his written word pure for the Church through all ages in the Hebrew and Greek faithful copies (apographa). We continue in this post by precisely explaining how he did so “by his singular care and providence.” First we will briefly discuss the nature of providence, then distinguish between general providence and special providence, and conclude with how this relates to the preservation of Scripture.

Providence is Teleological
“God’s works of providence are his most holy, wise, and powerful preserving, and governing all his creatures; ordering them, and all their actions, to his own glory (Ps. 145:17; Ps. 104:24; Isa. 28:29; Heb. 1:3; Ps. 103:19; Matt. 10:29-31; Gen. 45:7; Rom. 11:36; Isa. 63:14)”

Westminster Larger Catechism Question 18.

God executes his decrees in his works of creation and providence. Creation is God giving all things their nature, that is, making them what they are in their being. Providence is God bringing those things to their intended purpose. God creates things in a particular way so that he can bring them to the end that he designed. “When we talk about providence, we are particularly asking the question ‘How does God, in time, bring about the end which he has for all of creation?’1

The final cause, or “the ultimate purpose for which a thing is made or an act is performed2 must be kept in view when considering God’s providence toward that thing. Providence brings it to the definite purpose for which it was intended. In order for that purpose to be achieved, the thing itself must be preserved.

The Providence of God is either conservational or governmental. Conservation is that whereby God maketh all things both universal and singular, both in their essence and existence, and in their strength to persist and continue (Psa. 104:19-20; Acts 17:28; Heb. 1:3)… This conservation doth necessarily come between creation and government of things created because whatsoever is created to some end and use, to which also it ought to be directed and governed, but it cannot attain that end nor be directed to it unless it be continued and conserved in its being.

William Ames, The Marrow of Sacred Divinity, pg. 41.

General vs. Special Providence
Scripture distinguishes between the providence of God toward all things in general, and God’s special providence toward the Church in particular. As the nature of the Two Kingdoms are distinct, so is God’s providence toward those two kingdoms; God brings each kingdom to their designed end.

“There is a twofold consideration of Providence, according to its twofold object and manner of dispensation; the one in general, exercised about all creatures, rational and irrational, animate and inanimate; the other special and peculiar. Christ has a universal empire over all things (Eph. 1:22); He is the head of the whole world by way of dominion, but a head to the Church by way of union and special influence (John 17:2). He is ‘the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe’ (1 Tim. 4:10). The Church is His special care and charge. He rules the world for its good, as a head consulting the welfare of the body.”

John Flavel, The Mystery of Providence

The Westminster Confession of Faith recognizes this distinction between general and special providence in Scripture:

“As the providence of God doth, in general, reach to all creatures, so, after a most special manner, it taketh care of his Church, and disposeth all things to the good thereof (Isa 43:3-5, 14; Amos 9:8-9; Rom 8:28; 1 Tim 4:10).”

Westminster Confession of Faith 5:7

In bringing the Kingdom of Grace to its designed end, the continued existence of Scripture as the ultimate rule of faith and life is absolutely necessary.

The Necessity of the Continued Existence of Scripture
We are commanded to “search the scriptures” (John 5:39) and live “by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God“ (Mat. 4:4; c.f. Deut. 6:6-9), Christ promises to be with the Church “always, even unto the end of the world” (Mat. 28:20), therefore “Scripture must exist until the end of the world for the fulfillment of this divine command in each generation of the church…Scripture contains the teaching necessary to the work of the church, without which the church could not function.”3 Without faithful copies of the holy Scriptures throughout all ages, the institutional Church could not exercise the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven (Mat. 16; 18; 28), the key of dogma (John 20; 1 Cor. 4:1; 11:23; 2 Cor. 2:6-8; 2 Thess. 2:15), the key of order (1 Cor. 11; 1 Cor. 14), key of judgment (Matt. 18; 1 Cor. 5), and the key of authority (Rom. 10:15; 1 Tim. 4:14; Heb. 5:4).4

Scripture is “the firm and certain cause of faith5; God’s Word was written “That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed” (Luke 1:4) and “Christ himself, after his resurrection, directed his disciples to the Scriptures in order to make their faith more firm and certain (Lk. 24:26–27).6As God caused it to be written for the good of his people, so by Divine Providence he hath preserved the same whole and entire” (Leigh, Body of Divinity, Book I, chapter 1, pg. 13). “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28), including the preservation of his holy word for the use of his Bride.

“Let us hear the Scripture itself, witnessing of its own authority and durableness to all ages. Moses thus writeth of it: “The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever” (Deut. 29:29). David also professeth that he knew long before, that the Lord had founded his testimonies for evermore (Psalm 119:152). But our Saviour Christ’s testimony is of all others most evident: That Heaven and Earth shall pass, but that his word cannot pass, and yet more vehemently, that not one jot, or small letter of his Law can pass until all be fulfilled (Matt. 5:18). “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope“ (Rom. 15:4). Therefore none of those which were written for that end are lost.“

Edward Leigh, Body of Divinity, Book I, chapter 1, pg. 73

Scripture is not merely inerrant in its autographs, it is also infallible in those Hebrew and Greek faithful copies that the universal Church has passed down to us today. Otherwise, the Scriptures would not be “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Tim. 3:16-17) nor would they be able to function as the final court of appeal for the Church (WCF 1:8).

Edward Leigh similarly distinguishes between general and special providence in classifying the preservation of Scripture as a type of miracle. He argues that miracles of “confirmation” such as those done by Christ and the apostles, and the miracle of preserving Scripture from corruption “evince this Truth, that the Scriptures were from God.“ And although many secular books were written in ancient times,

“…those alone which pertain to godliness have been safely kept to Posterity; which is the rather to be observed, since many more in the world affect the knowledge of natural things than godliness and yet though careful of keeping them, they have not been able to preserve them from perpetual forgetfulness; whereas on the other side, these holy Writings, hated of the most part, and carelessly regarded of a number, have notwithstanding as full a remembrance as they had the first day the Lord gave them unto the Church.“

Body of Divinity, Book I, chapter 1, pg. 13.

We affirm with John Owen that to assert that the Hebrew and Greek texts of Scripture have been preserved in the same way as any other work of antiquity seems “to border on atheism.” Such a supposition neglects the special providence that God exercises with regard to his Church, the holy Scriptures being “most necessary (2 Tim 3:15; 2 Pet 1:19)” for the “better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world” (WCF 1:1) since at this point in redemptive history (Heb. 1:1-2) it is now the exclusive way in which he infallibly communicates his will to his Bride.

“It can, then, with no colour of probability be asserted (which yet I find some learned men too free in granting), namely, that there hath the same fate attended the Scripture in its transcription as hath done other books. Let me say without offence, this imagination, asserted on deliberation, seems to me to border on atheism. Surely the promise of God for the preservation of his word, with his love and care of his church, of whose faith and obedience that word of his is the only rule, requires other thoughts at our hands. We add that the whole scripture entire, as given out from God, without any loss, is preserved in the Copies of the Originals yet remaining; What varieties there are among the Copies themselves shall be afterwards declared; in them all, we say, is every letter and Tittle of the Word. These Copies we say, are the Rule, standard and touch-stone of all Translations ancient or modern, by which they are in all things to be examined, tried, corrected, amended, and themselves only by themselves.”

John Owen, Of the Divine Original, Authority, Self-Evidencing Light, and Power of the Scriptures, p. 173-174

The great works of antiquity by the hands of mere men may wither and fade like grass, “but the word of our God shall stand for ever” (Isa. 40:8). Yea, though even heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle of God’s Word shall in no wise pass away (Mat. 5:18; 24:35; Lk. 16:17).7

FOOTNOTES:

[1] Gregory Moeck, Westminster Larger Catechism 18b – God’s Governing All His Creatures and All Their Actions (video).

[2] Richard Muller, Dictionary of Latin and Greek Theological Terms, pg. 61.

[3] Richard Muller, Post Reformation Reformed Dogmatics, vol. 2, ch. 3.2, p. 173.

[4] George Gillespie, Aaron’s Rod Blossoming, Book II, chapter IV, p. 86.

[5] Amandus Polanus, A System of Christian Theology, excerpt from Muller, PRRD, vol. 2, ch. 3.2, p. 173.

[6] Richard Muller, ibid., p. 173.

[7] Francis Turretin, Institutes of Elenctic Theology, vol. 1, p. 96.
 
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JM

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For me, it comes down to presuppositions...not that we as Christian exclude evidence, but we view evidence through a biblical, Christian lens. We should not assume a secular mindset when handling the very word of God.

Forgive me if I offend.

jm
 
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DeaconDean

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the Reformation was based on the idea that the Bible we hold in our hands is trustworthy. That is is complete and preserved.

Not once, not once have I argued against that or said the Bible wasn't trustworthy.

Yes, I agree it is "complete". It tells who and what we need for salvation, and how to live. And that message has been preserved throughout history.

Not once have I argued against that.

For me, it comes down to presuppositions...not that we as Christian exclude evidence, but we view evidence through a biblical, Christian lens. We should not assume a secular mindset when handling the very word of God.

Forgive me if I offend.

jm

Here again, I am forced to repeat myself.

You know, it took some time after taking Greek in seminary for me to realize and find out just how many times the KJV renders thing not quite "correct".

Not once in any of the scriptures will you find the phrase "holy ghost". Or: "Φάντασμά ἅγιον" (Holy Phantasma) but I have seen "πνεῦμα ἅγιον" (Holy Spirit) plenty of times.

So should it come as a surprise that there are "mistakes" in the MT?

I mean, you guys give the impression that I'm trying to tear down the bible!

Let me cite this:

"Hebrew manuscripts copied before the first century a.d. show two distinct tendencies on the part of the scribes: they preserved the accuracy of the text and, at the same time, were willing to revise or update the text. (14) James Sanders, Eugene Ulrich, and Peter Gentry (15) recognize these two tendencies and classify the earliest witnesses into two groups of manuscripts: (1) the “repetition factor”—those manuscripts that reproduced an accurate, straightforward copy of the text; and (2) the “resignification factor”—those manuscripts that revised and updated the text to make it more relevant to circumstances at the time.

There is some evidence for additions or modifications (resignification) happening early on in the history of the transmission of the Hebrew text (e.g., “Dan” in Gen 14:14; Isa 7:8). Because there is no evidence from Hebrew manuscripts or the versions that suggests any other reading, they appear to be very early modifications.

There are several occasions when the Masoretes actually changed the Hebrew text. Letters are suspended four times in the MT. In Judg 18:30, the letter nun is suspended above the line: with the nun the Hebrew text spells “Manasseh,” and without the nun it spells “Moses.” Jewish tradition says that Micah acted more like Manasseh than he did Moses; thus, the nun was added to his name out of reverence for Moses."

14. Waltke and O’Connor, Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax, 16–17.
15. James A. Sanders, Canon and Community: A Guide to Canonical Criticism (Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock, 2000), 22; Eugene Ulrich, The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Origins of the Bible (Leiden: Brill, 1999), 11; Peter J. Gentry, “The Text of the Old Testament,” JETS 52.1 (2009): 44–45.

Current Trends in Old Testament Textual Criticism, Paul D. Wegner, Bulletin for Biblical Research 23.4 (2013) 461–480

I'm not trying to tear down the Word of God. Just trying to get as close as possible to the real Word of God.

Now you said, rather quoted:

Rather the question is have the original texts (or the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts) been so corrupted either by copyists through carelessness (or by the Jews and heretics through malice) that they can no longer be regarded as the judge of controversies and the rule to which all the versions must be applied? The papists affirm, we deny it.”

You give the impression that from ancient time on, God "preserved" His word, what we call the "Holy Bible".

I have shown a number of times in various threads in various areas, that the scriptures do contain mis-renderings. Mistranslations.

However, if we take what you quote, then as a Baptist, I must cease to call myself a Baptist and join the RCC.

Acts 2:38 says:

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

If God "preserved" that message, free from error, then there is no forgiveness for sins unless one is Baptized, and likewise, you cannot receive the Holy Spirit also without being baptized.

"Textual criticism" of the Greek proves that one word, very well could have been mistranslated in that sentence.

"eis" rendered in this sentence "for" is wrong in my research. The same Greek word is used when Jesus speaks of Nineveh "repented at the preaching of Jonah". (cf Mt. 12:41)

If "eis" indeed means "for" it makes no sense for the scripture to read "repented "for" the preaching of Jonah". Because Nineveh did not "repent" "for" Jonah to preach, rather they repented "because of" Jonah preaching.

So, are you baptized "because of" the forgiveness of sins? Or, are baptized "for" the forgiveness of sins?

Even the Greek of Acts 2:38 has a misrendering!

"Μετανοήσατε, [φησίν,] καὶ βαπτισθήτω ἕκαστος ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς ἄφεσιν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ὑμῶν, καὶ λήμψεσθε τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος:" -Acts 2:38 (GNT)

"Holy Spirit" is the correct rendering, not "holy phantasma (ghost)"!

Now if you can show me the phrase "agiou phantasma" in scripture, I'll take it all back.

From Genesis to Revelation, the scriptures point straight to and are focused on Jesus Christ and the salvation He bought for us. I have not and will not deny that.

But I get the impression, now that you quote so many articles against "textual criticism" that I'm doing a "bad thing".

I got into this research by way of the KJVO crowd. And here lately, even in this area, while it may not be the KJV, I am hearing a lot of the same from the Reformed crowd.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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JM

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Not once, not once have I argued against that or said the Bible wasn't trustworthy.

Yes, I agree it is "complete". It tells who and what we need for salvation, and how to live. And that message has been preserved throughout history.

Not once have I argued against that.

Dean, I realized after I didn't give a link to the authors website. I honestly thought it was included in the links within the article. That has been remedied.
 
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JM

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I got into this research by way of the KJVO crowd. And here lately, even in this area, while it may not be the KJV, I am hearing a lot of the same from the Reformed crowd.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You will hear a lot about it Dean because it was the Reformed view of scripture until the 1800's when Christians started to become influenced by German Liberal theology and a form of textual criticism that has it's roots in secular philosophy rather than Christian thinking.

The posts above were not written by me - what you find below was written by me. I post it here to demonstrate how a Christian should consider scripture, using examples about the Greek NT text, I believe you can all deduced the principles and presuppositions we are to use as Christians when handling God's word.

I hold to the same position the 17th century Reformers confessed, and is stated in Westminster and Second London Baptist Confessions. According to these confessions, the scriptures are:

“immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them.” (article 1:8)

Dr. Edward Hills explains how Erasmus, in his first printing of his Greek New Testament, was guided by a common faith held by all concerning, the text they had. And that,

“Luther, Melanchton, Stephanus, Calvin, Beza, and the other scholars of the Reformation Period who labored on the New Testament text were similarly guided by God’s special providence. These scholars had received humanistic training in their youth, and in their notes and comments they sometimes reveal traces of this early education. But in their actual dealings with the biblical text these humanistic tendencies were restrained by the common faith in the providential preservation of Scripture, a faith which they themselves professed along with their followers. Hence in the Reformation Period the textual criticism of the New Testament was different from the textual criticism of any other book. The humanistic methods used on other books were not applied to the New Testament. In their editions of the New Testament Erasmus and his successors were providentially guided by the common faith to adopt the current text, primarily the current Greek text and secondarily the current Latin text. … thus the logic of faith led true believers of that day, just as it leads true believers today, to the Textus Receptus as the God-guided New Testament text”

The Greek text edition circulated by Theodore Beza was in common use and considered authoritative. There was little or no further textual criticism done to his Greek edition, hence, it was received. In history we find a clear witness of the Protestant church to the Received Text. The church is the witness, the pillar and ground of truth. (1 Timothy 3:15)

J. H. Gosden of the Gospel Standard Baptist observes in his commentary on the Gospel Standard Baptist Articles of Faith,

“By inspiration of God gave the Holy Oracles, and power – perennial miracle – He preserves them intact. They are inerrant, unchangeable, unlosable. Could they err or change or be lost, their divine origin would be disapproved and dependence upon them would be misplaced. In such a case there would exist no foundation upon which to build for eternity, no final court of appeal respecting truth and error, no standard of doctrine, no rule of practice, no touchstone of experience. “

Those who prefer to use a rational approach in defining the New Testament text have to admit that scripture is selected by the text critic. In the office of a scholar many manuscripts are studied. The assumption is often stated that “only the originals are inspired.” The scholar must conduct examinations of the many manuscripts to determine which verse is more likely to be inspired and therefore authentic. But what kind of method does he use? What is his rule to determine what is, might be or is not scripture? The Bible critic or critics, whatever the case maybe, must choose and whatever kind of rule chosen, becomes their guiding principle. It is not driven by the logic of faith the Reformers used but a secular naturalistic presupposition. This presupposition denies the God who acts in history and intervenes in our daily lives. It denies what scriptures reveals about itself.

As the peoples historian D’Aubigne declared, “Christianity is neither an abstract doctrine nor an external organization. It is a life from God communicated to mankind…”

The CT man has no biblical text:

Bart Ehrman states, “there is always a degree of doubt, an element of subjectivity.”

Kurt Aland declares that the latest Text of the United Bible Societies is “not a static entity” and “every change in it is open to challenge.”

G. Zuntz admits that “the optimism of the earlier editors has given way to that scepticism which inclines towards regarding ‘the original text’ as an unattainable mirage.”

Douglas Wilson writes,

“This witness is not offered by the Church as “something to think about” or as a mere “suggestion.” The testimony of the Church on this point is submissive to Scripture, but authoritative for the saints. For example, if an elder in a Christian church took it upon himself to add a book to the canon of Scripture, or sought to take away a book, the duty of his church would be to try him for heresy and remove him immediately. This disciplinary action is authoritative, taken in defense of an authoritative canonical settlement. This does not mean the Church is defending the Word of God; the Church is defending her witness to the Word. As the necessity of discipline makes plain, this witness is dogmatic and authoritative. It is not open for discussion. God does not intend for us to debate the canon of Scripture afresh every generation. We have already given our testimony; our duty now is to remain faithful to it. “

Dr. Daniel Wallace is a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary and is considered an expert inn ancient biblical Greek and New Testament criticism. In a blog post about the annual meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature he wrote,

“As remarkable as it may sound, most biblical scholars are not Christians. I don’t know the exact numbers, but my guess is that between 60% and 80% of the members of SBL do not believe that Jesus’ death paid for our sins, or that he was bodily raised from the dead. “


We cannot declare the originals only, exchanging “King James Onlyism” for “Original Text Onlyism,” our very idea of sola scriptura does not allow for it. Without a foundational set of manuscripts Protestantism is reduced to just one of many traditions with sola scriptura a late development and no less of a tradition then that found in Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. This tradition is reduced to a Magisterium of scholars instead of Popes, Cardinals and Bishops. We have replaced the Roman Magisterium with a Magisterium of Textual Critics. Rome acts like a final authority, and the scholar tells us what the final authority might be.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Erik Nelson

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Not really.

Just as there is an attempt to get at the real text, as written by the Apostles by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in the NT. I cannot understand why the same has not been attempted in the OT.

Why must I accept the Masoretic Text as the "standard" for the entire OT?

Are people unaware the the text were deliberately changed?

Why was their a concerted effort to make Shem "Melchizedek"? Japheth was firstborn when Noah was 500, Shem second-born when Noah was 502 and Ham the youngest. Yet the Jews re-wrote this genealogy and insead of it being "Japheth the Great", they changed it to:

“About Shem it says (Gen. 9:26): "Praised be the Eternal, the God of Shem," (Ps. 110:4) "about my word to Malchisedekio [Melchizedek]."” (Seder Olam Rabbah 21:77, 160 AD)"

Also:

“Melchizedek … he is Shem the Great.” The identification with Shem is facilitated by the biblical chronology of Gen 11:10–26 (Hebrew text), which gives 290 years from the birth of Shem’s first son to the birth of Abram and says Shem lived five hundred years after the birth of his first son. In Nf and Pal. Tg., Shem was also in contact with Isaac (Nf Gen 24:62) and Rebekah (Nf Gen 25:22). The identification is also in rabbinic sources; see Grossfeld, op. cit., Gen 14 note 26. Jerome (Hebr. quaest. in Gen 14:18–19, CCL 72, 29) tells us that the Hebrews say that Melchizedek was Shem the Great, and reckoning his lifespan they show that he lived to Isaac’s time, and they say that all the firstborn of Noah, until Aaron, exercised the priesthood and were priests. The identification of Melchizedek and Shem was also known to Ephrem. On the same views in Jerome, see Hayward, art. cit., in note to 14:2 above.” (The Aramaic Bible, The Targum Neofiti Translated with a Critical Introduction Apparatus and Notes, K. Cathcart, M. Maher, Martin McNamara, Volume 1A to Genesis, p 92, footnote 22 at Gen 14:18, 1992 AD)"

Why was there a concerted effort to make Terah 130 years old rather than 70? Christians know from Acts 7:4 that Abraham was born when Terah was 130 years old not 70. This is an interpretive variance, not a textual one in spite of the fact that Jews from 300 BC to the present wrongly maintain that Terah was 70 when Abraham was born.

Has anybody besides me looked at how the Jews after AD 160, used
the Seder 'Olam Rabbah to shorten the number of days between creation and the flood, or shortened the numder of years of generations in a concerted effort to disqualify Jesus as the promised Messiah?

Why, if Ezra was called "a teacher well versed in the Law of Moses" (Ezra 7:6), and "the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven' (Ezra 7:12), why would he have had to change scripture?

Why must I accept without question, a text that became a "standard" in AD 1000, when in most respects, the Septuagint is more reliable in most respects?

It is disturbing that "textual criticism" has become a very good topic with regards to the New Testament MSS, but very little has done in the work of the Old Testament?

Don't get me wrong, in most cases the Masoretic Text is sound. But in my studying, I have found enough evidence to prove a concerted effort on the Jews part, to disqualify Jesus and His Apostles. They did, in fact, alter by either adding or took away from the numbers of years certain generations. in fact, the genealogy was changed so drastically in the MT:

"Masoretic Chronology like Seder Olam, is an extreme compression of real Jewish history so that every descendant of Noah down to Abraham (except Peleg), was alive when Abraham was born. This means that Noah, Shem, Pachshad, Shelah, Eber, Rau, Serug and Nahor may have attended Abraham’s first birthday party and might have helped Abraham blow out his one birthday candle. Every descendant of Noah after the flood not only lives to see Abraham, but in some cases outlives Abraham!" (Source)

It can also be shown from the MT, that Ezra did in fact, change at least 30 verses in the Torah.

Yet no one, not even in this room of people more learned than I have said anything or even caught that fact.

Why should I accept whole-heartedly, a "standard" text of the Old Testament that is 1400 years younger than the standard text Jesus and the Apostles used?

God Bless

Till all are one.
the Melchizedek = Shem invalidates Christianity because the claim is that Shem / Melchizedek passed the priesthood down through the Patriarchs to Levi to Aaron...

but Jesus was not a descendant of Levi, so could not then be a priest of the order of Melchizedek
 
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DeaconDean

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the Melchizedek = Shem invalidates Christianity because the claim is that Shem / Melchizedek passed the priesthood down through the Patriarchs to Levi to Aaron...

but Jesus was not a descendant of Levi, so could not then be a priest of the order of Melchizedek

So you see what I see.

Our Masoretic Text, even by their own admission, is/was corrupt.

But in this thread, I have been taken to task.

That is why I haven't posted in it in a while.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Erik Nelson

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So you see what I see.

Our Masoretic Text, even by their own admission, is/was corrupt.

But in this thread, I have been taken to task.

That is why I haven't posted in it in a while.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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