Reformed & Charismatic?

[HGFireStarter2k3]

I don't know...I'm not sure what to think, I had some bad experiences with myself and others around me before I became Reformed, passing around "words from God", and "prophecies" and the works. People taking "spiritual gift tests", talking about what gifts they have as if that is some reason to listen to them....it was just awful.

Just so you know where I"m coming from, used to if I had a feeling something was wrong but didn't have any scripture for it, but then later found some, I would have said to others "God spoke to me and told me it was wrong to help those who won't work."

When that actualy did happen recently I just said, to myself, "Hmm, I'm glad there was scripture to support the feeling I had about it".

Basically because I've come to know my sin much better through the preaching of Reformed Doctrines by the grace of God, I'm much more cautious about throwing around terms like "revelation", "words", or "speaking into his/her life", you know, that whole language of everything to do with the spirit.

I'm not saying I'm right...I'm saying something inside of me raises a flag when I turn on the T.V. and see Hillsong having a rock concert with choreographed dancers on stage with 11K people in the audience "worshiping God", Benny Hinn pushing people on the ground aka them "falling out in the spirit", people giving each other "words from God", speaking in tounges (mumbling giberish), saying people have "spirits of this, or a spirit of that", casting out demons, ect......something just isn't right to me...

Used to I would have said, "I have discerned these things to be not of God"...not I just say "hmm, I wonder why I feel this way"...

I can sympathize with you about having some bad experiences in the charismatic world. I've been raised in Pentecost all my life, it's all I've known, and when you're around it for some time, you see some things that don't quite rub you right. Lord knows the times I've been in a prayer line, and the preacher tried to push me over to make me fall down. However, I'm not gonna allow bad experiences with that influence whether I believe or not that there is a true experience of "resting in the Spirit". I've heard people prophesy some things that have made me wonder "Where in the world did they come up with that?", but that will not hinder me from receiving true prophetic words, delivered in a spirit of humility and godliness. I've heard people try to imitate tongues, or use them in an "showy", unbiblical manner, yet people's misuse of that gift will not hinder me from flowing in it correctly. The point is, people may abuse spiritual gifts and manifestations, or use them in an immature, wrong manner, but the solution to the situation is not to set ourselves against their exercise, but rather, to delineate how to properly operate in them. That was what the apostle Paul did with the Corinthian church; he did not stamp out the gifts, but rather, established parameters for their proper operation.

You know, you mentioned some of the popular Christian TV icons, and I have my thoughts about them. I personally enjoy the worship from Hillsong, but that's all, I'm not a dyed-in-the-wool Hillsong fanatic. As for Benny Hinn, he has put his foot in his mouth quite a few times, I don't agree with his opulent lifestyle, and I'm not a fan of the "one man show" type of ministry. If anything, I strongly believe in body-life ministry, as I have seen it taught and practiced in the Vineyard (I attend a Vineyard church). Some of the stuff that happens in some meetings is just theatrics, there's no substance. Authenticity, honesty, and relevance are things we should value in our life as a Christian community, ministering to one another and to those seeking.

I have personally witnessed many things in the way of manifestations and gifts. I've seen my share of fleshly stuff, which needed to be corrected. I've been involved in deliverance ministry (yes, casting out demons), and have managed to walk a balanced path wherein personal holiness and responsibility is emphasized, without looking for a demon under every rock. I've been involved in renewal, and have seen true responses to God's presence, as well as people "joining in the fun" (getting in the flesh). When God moves, things get stirred up, and sometimes the flesh and the devil will act up. That is why it is so important to be discerning. At the same time, one should not be paranoid, y'know? We should trust that God is well able to deal with any problems that arise.

I hope that you will not allow the bad experiences you have had to make you sour toward the real things God has in store for His people. I pray that you will remain hungry and thirsty for more of Him, and that He will use you as He so desires

 

[tigersnare]

Hi,

I thank you for your post, but my name isn't Sean...

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

Hi,

I thank you for your post, but my name isn't Sean...

I just noticed, I confused you with Irishcat, I apologize. Must be the lack of sleep I was experiencing

 

[tigersnare]

You mentioned Charles Spurgeon, and he himself experienced times when he spoke, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, words that were prophetic in nature. In Jack Deere's Surprised by the Voice of God, Dr. Deere cites quotes of Spurgeon's ministry, where he would point somebody out in a meeting, who was unknown to him, and publicly revealed something about their lives that brought conviction to their hearts, resulting in their conversion. Spurgeon would say that he felt the Holy Spirit was leading him to speak those things. In effect, that is the prophetic gift in operation.

Would I have to read the book to find these quotes from Spurgeon?

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

Would I have to read the book to find these quotes from Spurgeon?

Hello,

I just found a link that contains the fuller quotes of Spurgeon, as well as those of other Reformers and Christian leaders of years ago, that experienced prophetic revelation, and other gifts of the Spirit. There are footnotes at the end of the article with the sources:

Cessationism vs. Biblicism: Cessationism Under The Biblical Spotlight...A Brief Historic Survey

 

[AndOne]

I have been reading these posts with avid interest - as like Sean - I too spent a good part of my growing up years involved in the Charismatic movement. My family actually attended Benny Hinn's church when he had his ministry home based in Orlando, FL.

I too am very leary when it comes to the Charismatic churches. Although I am not willing to say that the gifts are no longer in existence or that miracles are impossible - I most certainly will not put the importance or relavance on them as do many of the mainstream churches that are Charismatic, such as the Assembly of God. Heck - the Assemblies of God have in their own statement of faith that unless one shows evidence of speaking in toungues he does not have the baptism in the Holy Spirit. That is utterly rediculous - not to mention dangerous!

When you get right down to it - there is a very great potential for the gifts as they are displayed in modern times to be abused and misused. Fact of the matter is - most people in the pews don't bother to check and see if a "word" given lines up with scripture. That is dangerous. It is my opinion that any word given should be immediately backed up with scripture - it doesn't happen. I have seen and heard so many crazy things from different Charismatic Churches - from a "word" telling a couple living together outside of marriage that it was okay - to people acting like chickens - I kid you not - I have seen a guy walking around clucking like a chicken in a Vineyard church. Granted these are extreme cases - but its those subtle little question marks that pop up that get me concerned.

Personally I prefer to stay away from the Charismatic churches - they scare me - because the slope to slide into error is just way too close by.

 

[Irishcat922]

Hello,

I just found a link that contains the fuller quotes of Spurgeon, as well as those of other Reformers and Christian leaders of years ago, that experienced prophetic revelation, and other gifts of the Spirit. There are footnotes at the end of the article with the sources:

Cessationism vs. Biblicism: Cessationism Under The Biblical Spotlight...A Brief Historic Survey

I read that paper and have ready many such like it. I don't have any problems with it. I think the problem is when Charismatics make that standard operating procedure for every service. I think at certain times when God deems it necessary extraordinary things may happen, but it is always an extraordinary occurence.

Jose, I would recommend you to read "Charity and it's Fruits" by Edwards he deals excellently with 1 Cor 13 in that book. I would also highly recommend MacArthur's book "Charismatic Chaos" He is a cessationist but I felt he dealt with the issue very humbly and with great affection for his Charimatic brethren.

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

I have been reading these posts with avid interest - as like Sean - I too spent a good part of my growing up years involved in the Charismatic movement. My family actually attended Benny Hinn's church when he had his ministry home based in Orlando, FL.

I too am very leary when it comes to the Charismatic churches. Although I am not willing to say that the gifts are no longer in existence or that miracles are impossible - I most certainly will not put the importance or relavance on them as do many of the mainstream churches that are Charismatic, such as the Assembly of God. Heck - the Assemblies of God have in their own statement of faith that unless one shows evidence of speaking in toungues he does not have the baptism in the Holy Spirit. That is utterly rediculous - not to mention dangerous!

When you get right down to it - there is a very great potential for the gifts as they are displayed in modern times to be abused and misused. Fact of the matter is - most people in the pews don't bother to check and see if a "word" given lines up with scripture. That is dangerous. It is my opinion that any word given should be immediately backed up with scripture - it doesn't happen. I have seen and heard so many crazy things from different Charismatic Churches - from a "word" telling a couple living together outside of marriage that it was okay - to people acting like chickens - I kid you not - I have seen a guy walking around clucking like a chicken in a Vineyard church. Granted these are extreme cases - but its those subtle little question marks that pop up that get me concerned.

Personally I prefer to stay away from the Charismatic churches - they scare me - because the slope to slide into error is just way too close by.

Hello Behe's Boy,

I can understand your caution concerning certain abberations within the Charismatic movement. Having grown up and been raised in a variety of Charismatic churches (i.e. Word-Faith, Renewal/Revival, Apostolic-Prophetic, and presently a member of a Vineyard church), I've seen some extremes in the emphasis placed on the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit. I've heard so-called "prophetic" words, which one could discern were not truly of God, but were spoken presumptuously, from the flesh. I've seen people try to get folks to "repeat" phrases in "tongues", faster and faster, and then convincing them that they were baptized in the Spirit. That is not of God. When I received my personal Pentecost, nobody was forcing me to repeat a bunch of syllables or phrases. I was just worshiping the Lord, and utterance in tongues began to flow effortlessly and clearly.

Anyways, I have seen some things that I could point the finger at and, biblically and with spiritual discernment, say "That's not of God." When people "prophesy" telling unmarried sexually active couples that their lifestyle is okay, that is not of God. When people cluck like chickens, I honestly doubt that that's the work of the Holy Spirit (btw, I haven't heard any chicken clucking in my Vineyard church). If a preacher preaches his latest "revelation", and it is contrary to the plain truth of the Scriptures, that preacher is in error. Sadly though, as you pointed out, many of the saints in the pews don't bother to check things out scripturally, for fear of speaking against the "Lord's anointed" (especially if that preacher demands unquestioning obedience and alliegance to his teaching). Things like this demand biblical correction. The Word and the Spirit agree; the Spirit will not do something contrary to the Word.

As much as there is a potential for spiritual gifts to be abused or misused, that does not mean that we should stamp them out altogether. If anything, we need to teach the people how to properly operate in spiritual gifts and manifestations. This is what the apostle Paul did with the Corinthian church. With all its problems and situations, Paul could have said, "Y'all can't move in spiritual gifts any longer." On the contrary, Paul proceeded to teach the people what the gifts were, the foundation of love, and how to properly move in the gifts. Kevin Leal, a prophetic minister, has said "You do not correct misuse and abuse by disuse; you correct misuse and abuse by correct use." I agree, spiritual gifts, when operated in wrongly, can be abused and misused, but when they are operated in rightly, they can be of great blessing and edification toward the church. Ultimately, the blessings that come through rightly exercised spiritual gifts, centered in the Person and work of Christ, and ministered in a spirit of love, truth and humility, far outweigh the goofups and errors which can take place.

Finally, while you may feel that it's too easy for Charismatic churches to slide into error, I can assure you that the same thing can happen to noncharismatic churches. The sword cuts both ways. While the error in noncharismatic churches may not be related to spiritual manifestations, there are other things that can occur: denominational and/or doctrinal pride; coldness toward believers who don't believe as you do; rigid formalism with no room for the wind of the Spirit to blow; disregard for biblical teaching on biblical morality (which is what has happened in the ECUSA and PCUSA in regards to homosexuality); lack of evangelical fervor; etc. The issue is not whether Charismatics are more prone to error than noncharismatics; the issue is whether we will seek to search the Scriptures to know what they teach, "keep the main thing the main thing", the Gospel of Jesus Christ, keep in step with the Spirit while being established in the Word, and live our lives as Christ has called us to.

Peace,

Jose

 

[AndOne]

Jose -

Thanks for the insight brother...

Personally - I'm going to choose to stay away from the Charismatic churches. It is my personal conviction that they are dangerous therefore I want nothing to with them. It is my belief that the Charasmatic churches are indeed more prone to error because most "do not search the scriptures" and stick to the truth that is there - and that for me is the issue. I am not saying all are in error - but I believe most are.

It is not my place to tell you to leave your church. But my personal response to all this is "be carefull." When the manifestation of the gifts have more importance placed on them than the gospel of Jesus than there is a problem. I will take a church that has no manifestations of the spirit present and soley focuses on worshipping God and preaching from the Word over the Charasmatic variety any day of the week. I know which non-charsmatic churces to stay away from - I can't say the same for those that are.

I can say I've been there though - and I'm not going back.

Dave

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

Jose -

Thanks for the insight brother...

Personally - I'm going to choose to stay away from the Charismatic churches. It is my personal conviction that they are dangerous therefore I want nothing to with them. It is my belief that the Charasmatic churches are indeed more prone to error because most "do not search the scriptures" and stick to the truth that is there - and that for me is the issue. I am not saying all are in error - but I believe most are.

It is not my place to tell you to leave your church. But my personal response to all this is "be carefull." When the manifestation of the gifts have more importance placed on them than the gospel of Jesus than there is a problem. I will take a church that has no manifestations of the spirit present and soley focuses on worshipping God and preaching from the Word over the Charasmatic variety any day of the week. I know which non-charsmatic churces to stay away from - I can't say the same for those that are.

I can say I've been there though - and I'm not going back.

Dave

Hiya Dave,

Again, I understand where you are coming from. Also, if it is not your wish to affiliate with charismatic churches, then that is up to you, I cannot force that upon you. However, I would caution you against throwing out the baby with the bathwater, in a manner of speaking, when it comes to the issue of spiritual gifts. While I agree that our primary attention should not be on spiritual gifts (our primary emphasis, from which all other teaching flows, is the gospel of Jesus Christ), at the same time, we are challlenged by the apostle Paul, the great expositor of the gospel of grace, to earnestly desire spiritual gifts. The reasons for which we are to desire spiritual gifts are definitely not self-centered (which sadly, some segments of the charismatic movement have become), but are rooted in us being the Body of Christ, building and strengthening one another. Remember this too, the charismata are given by Jesus, as extensions of His ministry in the earth, to and through His Church. If we will embrace the Giver, we must embrace His gifts as well, for they are good.

Concerning your statement of choosing a church which has worship of God and solid teaching/preaching from the Word, without the gifts and demonstrations of the Holy Spirit, I believe that such a perspective swings toward an extreme of embracing a head knowledge of God and the Scriptures, which does not necessarily translate into the experiential and encounter dimension of our faith. On the other extreme (which I believe you wish to avoid) is that Spirit-oriented, manifestation-centered church, where doctrine is laid aside, where decency and order give way to chaos, and "present truth" is favored above God's plain revelation in the Scriptures. Myself, I believe I've come to a place where I'm walking in balance. We don't need to segregate the Word and the Spirit; we need them both. I've heard it said that the Spirit is likened to the fire, and the Word is the fireplace. If you don't have the Spirit, all you have is a cold fireplace. However, if you don't have a fireplace to contain the fire, the fire will burn wildly, burning and destroying everything. It is when you have the fire in the fireplace that people are blessed and grow. Thus, we should not just be "doctrine" or "experience" people, we need the best of both, so we can grow up to maturity as Christ desires.

I know you do not wish to return to the charismatic churches, but I would encourage you not to so suddenly cut off your charismatic brethren from your life. Though there are areas in which we need you to help us improve and develop, at the same time, there may be some things we may be of service with to you. We are members of one Body, after all, and we need to nurture and edify one another. Also, be available to be used by God, and desire to be so used.

Here's a link to the Sovereign Grace Ministrieswebsite. This ministry, led by C.J. Mahaney, is solidly committed to a gospel & cross-centered theology (they are Reformed, and are especially influenced by Puritan spirituality), while at the same time, being available to be used of God in His gifts, by the power of the Spirit. Were you open to connecting with charismatic believers who have that strong doctrinal foundation, these would be the ones that would fit the bill. I recommend them highly to you, so please check out their information and articles. Blessings to you!

Jose

 

[Irishcat922]

John Calvin on the Issue of extra-biblical revelation.

It is contrary to God's will for men to neglect scripture and seek fresh revelations.
There are some people who proudly claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. These despise the people who cling to the "dead and killing letter". If they claim to be led by the Spirit of God, it is foolish to think this revelation would be any different from that given to the apostles and prophets who wrote the Word of God.

Paul had once been caught up to the third heaven. He had a right, if anyone had, to claim that he had a special revelation, but he still used scripture and encouraged Timothy to do so. He honours scripture in saying it is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (II Timothy 3:16,17).

When our Lord promised his Holy Spirit, he said he would be one who would not speak of himself, but call to remembrance what Christ himself had taught by spoken words. So the promised Spirit will not give new, unheard-of revelations. He will confirm in our hearts the very same doctrine which the gospel of Christ has given us.

Let this be clear. Those who wish to receive profit and blessing from the Spirit of God must be diligent in reading scripture and in listening to its voice.

To people who say it is an indignity for the Spirit of God who is above all things to be subject to scripture, you may reply that it is no dishonour to the Spirit to be consistent with himself. He is the author of scripture and he cannot change.

To say that those who adhere to the scripture are in bondage to the "killing letter" is playing with words. When Paul said that the letter kills (II Corinthians 3:6) he was opposing false apostles who still clung to the law and would not accept God's new law of grace through Christ. The law does kill when it is separated from the grace of Christ. When it is powerfully impressed on the heart by the Spirit and sets forth Christ, it is the Word of Life.

Real reverence for the Word takes possession of our hearts when the light of the Spirit enables us to see God in the scriptures; and on the other hand, we welcome without fear of' delusion that Spirit which we recognise by his likeness to his own Word.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

I'm not of the mind that charismatic gifts are to be used today, but here's a site that would argue that they are applicable in a reformed setting:
http://www.mslick.com/gifts.htm

 

[Irishcat922]

I have frequently used the CARM website I have a great deal of respect for Matt Slick, but I disagree with him on his views on the charismata.