Reformed & Charismatic?

[HGFireStarter2k3]

Hi y'all,

I'm pretty new here, so please bear with me

Anyways, I'm curious as to what people's opinions here are concerning Reformed theology and charismatic spirituality together. I know that to some people, these two things seem very much opposed, but I've been blessed to fellowship with precious believers whom are Reformed in theology, yet move in the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit as outlined in 1 Cor. 12. Some of my friends are members at churches connected with Sovereign Grace Ministries (formerly People of Destiny International/PDI Ministries), an apostolic network based out of Gaithersburg, MD. Also, there have been prominent Reformed theologians, such as Wayne Grudem, Sam Storms, and others, that believe in, teach, and move in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Also, Jack Deere (dunno if he's Reformed) wrote a book entitled Surprised by the Voice of God, with a chapter where he highlights historical evidence that various Scottish Presbyterians (even John Knox) moved in the prophetic and revelatory gifts of the Spirit, predicting events that came to pass.

What are y'all's thoughts on being Reformed and charismatic? Are they exclusive or complementary?

 

[Irishcat922]

I am fairly familar with Grudem and Deere's teaching, and I don't think they hold up under the scrutiny of Scriptural Authority. Reformed Christians have historically held to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, and to maintain that any revelatory gifts are commonplace in the Church today is to undermine the authority of scripture. Which in my opinion, that is exactly what charismatics are doing i.e. undermining the authority of God's word. I am sympathetic though, I came out of a charismatic background, and tried to be objective as possible in my personal research, but i think it come down to one's belief's about the authority of Scripture. Is it final of not, do we need new revelations to live the Christian life? I believe scripture itself is clear on this matter, and reformed Christians for two thousand years have agreed.

Psalm 138:2 I bow down toward your holy temple
and give thanks to your name for your steadfast love and your faithfulness,
for you have exalted above all things
your name and your word.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter One
6. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.(12) Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:(13) and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.(14)

Scripture Proof (12)

EAV 2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known1 the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

EAV 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

EAV 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished1 unto all good works.

EAV Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you1 than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

EAV Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

EAV 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken1 in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Scripture Proof (13)

EAV Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

EAV 1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

EAV 1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

EAV 1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth1 the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

EAV 1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Scripture Proof (14)


EAV 1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.1

EAV 1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

I am fairly familar with Grudem and Deere's teaching, and I don't think they hold up under the scrutiny of Scriptural Authority. Reformed Christians have historically held to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, and to maintain that any revelatory gifts are commonplace in the Church today is to undermine the authority of scripture. Which in my opinion, that is exactly what charismatics are doing i.e. undermining the authority of God's word. I am sympathetic though, I came out of a charismatic background, and tried to be objective as possible in my personal research, but i think it come down to one's belief's about the authority of Scripture. Is it final of not, do we need new revelations to live the Christian life? I believe scripture itself is clear on this matter, and reformed Christians for two thousand years have agreed.

Psalm 138:2 I bow down toward your holy temple
and give thanks to your name for your steadfast love and your faithfulness,
for you have exalted above all things
your name and your word.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter One
6. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.(12) Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:(13) and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.(14)

Scripture Proof (12)

EAV 2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known1 the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

EAV 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

EAV 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished1 unto all good works.

EAV Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you1 than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

EAV Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

EAV 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken1 in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Scripture Proof (13)

EAV Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

EAV 1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

EAV 1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

EAV 1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth1 the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

EAV 1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Scripture Proof (14)


EAV 1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.1

EAV 1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Hello Irishcat922,

As far as I understand the revelatory/prophetic gifts, and their present-day manifestation, they do not undermine the authority of the Scriptures, so long as they line up with God's Word in the Scriptures. Wayne Grudem speaks of noncanonical prophecy, which is not new revelation added to Scripture, but rather, something given for the edification, exhortation, and comfort of God's people, which is in line with scriptural teaching. Any "prophecy" or "revelation" which seeks to add to the Bible, or contradicts that which is already revealed in the Bible, is to be disregarded.

I believe in the sufficiency and supremacy of Scripture as our rule for faith, practice, and godly living. At the same time, we must be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit to address issues that we may not find a word-for-word answer in the Scriptures. For instance, let's say that Tom, a single young man, is seeking God's specific direction as to whether he should marry Suzie, he will not find a verse saying, "Suzie is the one you shall marry." He'll find plenty of verses defining what a godly woman is, her character, and lifestyle, but there may be more than one young lady that possess many of those biblical characteristics, and honestly, Tom can't marry all the godly young women he meets! He can only marry one, and that is where Tom needs to hear the Holy Spirit's voice, and receive the Lord's peace concerning the matter.

Another example of Holy Spirit insight, which is not spelled out word-for-word in the Bible, is that of prayer for others, when we do not know what to pray for. I have a friend, Jolie, who is Wiccan. A week before I first met her, I felt a leading of the Holy Spirit to intercede and pray for her. As I spent time in prayer, the Holy Spirit revealed various things to me about Jolie's life, which were unknown to me. When I met her, I was able to pray for her and prophesy over her, and she looked up at me and said, "How did you know that?" I didn't know the stuff Jolie was going through from a biblical exposition, but through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, and this has served to open Jolie's heart more and more to the Gospel.

There's much more that could be said, but I've gotta run to church now. Catch ya laters!

Peace,

Jose

 

[tigersnare]

At the same time, we must be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit to address issues that we may not find a word-for-word answer in the Scriptures.

Another example of Holy Spirit insight, which is not spelled out word-for-word in the Bible, is that of prayer for others, when we do not know what to pray for.

But are these the revelatory Charasmatic gifts?

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

Hiya Tigersnare,

The gifts I made reference to, both in the first example, and in the personal account of ministering to my friend Jolie, are what charismatics often refer to as the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, and the gift of prophecy. A word of wisdom would be revelation from the Lord that is more directive in nature, giving you the wisdom and mind of the Lord concerning a matter. A word of knowledge would be insight from the mind of God concerning facts pertaining to people, places, things, and situations, either past or present. Prophecy, as a gift, is generally speaking the heart, mind, and will of God, for an individual or group, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in a manner that edifies, exhorts, and brings comfort to the hearers.

My personal belief is that there are people who, though in word, would deny the continuity of revelatory charismatic gifts, in deed, has actually experienced them at some point in their Christian life. When we feel an urgent intercessory burden to pray for a specific person, at a specific time, and we find out later that their life was spared from an untimely death, is it not because we received revelation from the Holy Spirit? When we pray with somebody (who has not told us what they need prayer for), and what we pray for and tell them is exactly what they needed, is that not God speaking? I'd be unwise to ignore such occurences and label them as "coincidence". The simple truth is that God is always speaking, but will we listen?

 

[tigersnare]

Hiya Tigersnare,

The gifts I made reference to, both in the first example, and in the personal account of ministering to my friend Jolie, are what charismatics often refer to as the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, and the gift of prophecy. A word of wisdom would be revelation from the Lord that is more directive in nature, giving you the wisdom and mind of the Lord concerning a matter. A word of knowledge would be insight from the mind of God concerning facts pertaining to people, places, things, and situations, either past or present.

Greeting Brother!


I think these things happen to Reformed Christians all the time, we just don't focus on it, or even put a name on it. At least the Reformed community around me... Know what I mean?

Prophecy, as a gift, is generally speaking the heart, mind, and will of God, for an individual or group, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in a manner that edifies, exhorts, and brings comfort to the hearers.

Or as we call it.....preaching?

I think it's the same thing as above, we just don't put a name on it. But surely when Spurgeon preached he was led by the spirit, edified, exhorted, and brought not only comfort, but conviction to his hearers through the power of the spirit.

It seems from the little bit of Church history I've read, the gifts were never the focus of the Church and weren't elevated to the level they seem to be in the Charasmatic communities now.

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

Greeting Brother!


I think these things happen to Reformed Christians all the time, we just don't focus on it, or even put a name on it. At least the Reformed community around me... Know what I mean?




Or as we call it.....preaching?

I think it's the same thing as above, we just don't put a name on it. But surely when Spurgeon preached he was led by the spirit, edified, exhorted, and brought not only comfort, but conviction to his hearers through the power of the spirit.

It seems from the little bit of Church history I've read, the gifts were never the focus of the Church and weren't elevated to the level they seem to be in the Charasmatic communities now.

I wouldn't go so far as to call preaching prophecy, because the Scriptures do differentiate between the two. That is not to say, however, that preaching cannot have a prophetic element, or that preaching cannot be a means whereby the prophetic can have expression. But when Paul was writing to the Corinthian church, when he spoke of prophecy, he spoke of believers speaking forth (or "forthtelling") utterances, which were mostly spontaneous in nature, which were geared toward edification, exhortation, and comfort, and also revealed the secrets of men's hearts. You mentioned Charles Spurgeon, and he himself experienced times when he spoke, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, words that were prophetic in nature. In Jack Deere's Surprised by the Voice of God, Dr. Deere cites quotes of Spurgeon's ministry, where he would point somebody out in a meeting, who was unknown to him, and publicly revealed something about their lives that brought conviction to their hearts, resulting in their conversion. Spurgeon would say that he felt the Holy Spirit was leading him to speak those things. In effect, that is the prophetic gift in operation.

Concerning the present-day emphasis on spiritual gifts in some circles, I believe that part of the reason they are so emphasized has been because some church circles have de-emphasized them, or not even taught on them at all. As a result of the ignorance and hostility there is concerning spiritual gifts in some places, there has needed to be much teaching to bring them back into the picture. However, we should never make pursuing spiritual gifts, for their own sake, our goal. Rather, as Paul said, if we seek to excel in spiritual gifts, it should be for the common good of our brethren, and ultimately, they should point to Jesus and the Gospel message.

 

[Irishcat922]

Jose,

The problem I have with these views, and keep in mind I was charismatic for years, is they still undermine the Authority of Scripture. Grudem redefines New Testament Prophecy, but the New Testament never does redefine it being anything other than what it had always been, i.e. a foretelling or forthtelling by Divine Inspiration. To redifine what God himself has defined is to lessen the Authority of God's Word. I have read some of Grudem's views and while I have a great deal of respect for him on many issues, I think he really missed it on this one. It is very dangerous to interpret scripture according to our presuppositions, and i think this is what Grudem and those in his camp have done. It is also very dangerous to interpret Scripture according to our experiences, which I am afraid many very sincere people are doing today.
Look I know where you are coming from, but really think this through, this is a dangerous view. God's Word is final and authoritative, impressions are short lived and harmful. If you stick to God's Word you can say "thus saith the LORD" with authority, otherwise you can never be sure if you are right or not.
Consider the Words of the Prophet Jeremiah:

Jeremiah Chapter 23
16 Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes. They speak visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. 17 They say continually to those who despise the word of the Lord, ‘It shall be well with you’; and to everyone who stubbornly follows his own heart, they say, ‘No disaster shall come upon you.’”

21 “I did not send the prophets,
yet they ran;
I did not speak to them,
yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
then they would have proclaimed my words to my people,
and they would have turned them from their evil way,
and from the evil of their deeds.

Rejoice Always,

Seanhttp://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Jeremiah+23

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

Jose,

The problem I have with these views, and keep in mind I was charismatic for years, is they still undermine the Authority of Scripture. Grudem redefines New Testament Prophecy, but the New Testament never does redefine it being anything other than what it had always been, i.e. a foretelling or forthtelling by Divine Inspiration. To redifine what God himself has defined is to lessen the Authority of God's Word. I have read some of Grudem's views and while I have a great deal of respect for him on many issues, I think he really missed it on this one. It is very dangerous to interpret scripture according to our presuppositions, and i think this is what Grudem and those in his camp have done. It is also very dangerous to interpret Scripture according to our experiences, which I am afraid many very sincere people are doing today.
Look I know where you are coming from, but really think this through, this is a dangerous view. God's Word is final and authoritative, impressions are short lived and harmful. If you stick to God's Word you can say "thus saith the LORD" with authority, otherwise you can never be sure if you are right or not.
Consider the Words of the Prophet Jeremiah:

Jeremiah Chapter 23
16 Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes. They speak visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. 17 They say continually to those who despise the word of the Lord, ‘It shall be well with you’; and to everyone who stubbornly follows his own heart, they say, ‘No disaster shall come upon you.’”

21 “I did not send the prophets,
yet they ran;
I did not speak to them,
yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
then they would have proclaimed my words to my people,
and they would have turned them from their evil way,
and from the evil of their deeds.

Rejoice Always,

Sean

Hi Sean,

As passionate as we both are for the authority of God's written Word, there should be no doubt that we agree on its primacy. The issue at hand is whether the revelatory ministry of the Holy Spirit, through the gifts of the Spirit, lessens the authority of God's Word. You may believe it does, I do not believe it does. If anything, I am convinced that those who believe God still speaks today, are more persuaded of the authority of the Scriptures, because the reality of a God who is alive and active in our lives, which is taught in the Scriptures, is evident to us. I agree that we should not interpret Scripture by our experiences; there has been much spiritual shipwreck due to this kind of thing. However, our experiences should line up with God's Word. That is why we are admonished to test and judge prophecies, to discern whether words are truly from the Lord, and to see what the fruit borne from those words is.

Concerning Grudem's views, I do have my disagreements with his definition of prophecy, and do find it to be weak in some areas. Personally, I lean more toward the views expressed by Bill Hamon, Ernest Gentile, and other prophetic veterans, who highlight the forthtelling (and sometimes, foretelling) aspects of speaking under divine inspiration. I believe it was either Rick Joyner or Steve Thompson that noted the supremacy of Scripture as our "sure word of prophecy." That word is true anytime, anyplace, for anybody. At the same time, we should not be fearful to speak what we believe God may be moving us to speak at that specific moment, be it a prophecy, word of knowledge, or a word of wisdom. Sure, we are humans, and we are afraid of "missing it", but you never know until you speak that word just how significant it may be to the hearer. Sometimes we are afraid of being branded "false prophets", and perhaps words we may speak may not come to pass for years (consider Isaiah's Messianic prophecies, they took hundreds of years to be fulfilled!), but as John Wimber often said, "Faith is spelled R-I-S-K." We must be willing to step out and be used of God. His Spirit dwells within us, and will bear witness to our spirits as to what He is saying. We are the sheep of the Good Shepherd, and we hear and know His voice. We need not be afraid that we will "man-ufacture" words, as the prophets who speak from their own imaginations and minds, but we can trust that we will be God's voice to a people that must hear what He has to say.

Here's a good Calvinist question: since God is sovereign, He can do whatever He desires, right? Then, if He desires to move in the charismatic gifts, who are we to say He cannot? Let's ponder that one for a while

Peace,

Jose

 

[James1979]

I might be off subject but since we have the word of God of the bible and it's complete. There is no need for additional voices or supernatural dreams/vision. Because we have to check ourselves and think for a minute, do we want to get instructions from God in the bible or a voice/dreams/vision. Because in the book of Rev 22:18 it warns about a man adding/taking away from the word of God. Since people supposely hear the word of God in a voice or some matter and it's not from the bible, they have disregarded the bible altogether and obeyed a supernatural voice.

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So where are we gonna get our doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness: the bible which is complete or a supernatural voice/dreams/visions. You can't have both. Which source is more reliable?

God Bless

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

I might be off subject but since we have the word of God of the bible and it's complete. There is no need for additional voices or supernatural dreams/vision. Because we have to check ourselves and think for a minute, do we want to get instructions from God in the bible or a voice/dreams/vision. Because in the book of Rev 22:18 it warns about a man adding/taking away from the word of God. Since people supposely hear the word of God in a voice or some matter and it's not from the bible, they have disregarded the bible altogether and obeyed a supernatural voice.

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So where are we gonna get our doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness: the bible which is complete or a supernatural voice/dreams/visions. You can't have both.

God Bless

Hi James,

I agree that the Scriptures are given by inspiration of God, and that they are sufficient and profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. The issue at hand is whether the fact that we have the whole Bible negates the supernatural ways God speaks, through visions, dreams, the prophetic, etc. If anything, we are commanded to test visions, dreams, prophetic words, and like things to see whether they line up with God's Word in the Bible. If it does, then it's legitimate; if it doesn't, we toss it away. As Christians who esteem the Bible as our standard, we don't allow our experiences to lead us away from the Scriptures. If anything, any supernatural experiences we have should result in us drawing closer to Christ, and being more devoted to His Word. We are not to allow subjective experiences to determine our doctrine; rather, we have the objective standard of God's Word, which will let us know whether our subjective experience is in accordance with God's Word.

Consider this too: God does speak to His children however He desires, concerning those things He desires for them. Sometimes God, by His Spirit, will reveal to us things to come. Sometimes God may warn us to pray so that disaster will be averted, or for a loved one to come to Christ. As I said in the example I gave in an earlier post, the Bible will not always give us a word-for-word answer to some inquiries and life situations (i.e. whether to accept a certain job, marry a certain person, become involved in a certain group of people, etc.) The Bible will give you principles by which to make some decisions, but it won't tell you "Take the job when they offer it to you on Tuesday", "Marry Suzie, she's the one", etc. However, the Holy Spirit will bear witness with our spirits whether to take a certain course of action, and it may come through some supernatural communication, and that is certainly not out of God's sovereignty.

 

[James1979]

We are commanded to test spirits not visions. We humans beings are spirit. We have to test indiviuals that claim that they are of God through his word to see if they have believe in the same Jesus and have the same gospel as the bible. God does have an answer on how who we are to marry. 1 Corinthians 7 has answer for that. Before the bible was complete, God did speak through dreams/visions/voice once that was happening it was added to the word of God. But since the bible is complete and we know that no one in the world is adding a chapter or a book in the bible(except making new versions and adding there own interpretation to the word of God), therefore dreams,voice, visions is invalid. I can't make you believe me but I will stick to what the word of God says.

God Bless

 

[tigersnare]

Here's a good Calvinist question: since God is sovereign, He can do whatever He desires, right? Then, if He desires to move in the charismatic gifts, who are we to say He cannot? Let's ponder that one for a while

Surely there are things you believe God won't do. Chances are you base this off of scripture.

ex)
You are reformed, who are you to say God will not save every single soul? Well, you are a bible believing Christian, and according to what you read, you can not possibly say God will indeed save everyone.

If someone believes the word says without a doubt the revelatory gifts have ceased, they are no different than the example above, I think.

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

We are commanded to test spirits not visions. We humans beings are spirit. We have to test indiviuals that claim that they are of God through his word to see if they have believe in the same Jesus and have the same gospel as the bible. God does have an answer on how who we are to marry. 1 Corinthians 7 has answer for that. Before the bible was complete, God did speak through dreams/visions/voice once that was happening it was added to the word of God. But since the bible is complete and we know that no one in the world is adding a chapter or a book in the bible(except making new versions and adding there own interpretation to the word of God), therefore dreams,voice, visions is invalid. I can't make you believe me but I will stick to what the word of God says.

God Bless

Hi James,

I agree that we are to test the spirits, to see whether they are of God. This is not only in regards to testing individuals, but also spiritual experiences, and evaluating whether their content matches up with the biblical witness. Paul had the following things to say about testing prophetic revelation:

1 Cor. 14:29: "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge."

1 Thes. 5:19-21: "Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good."

As for God's direction as to whom we should marry, like I said, the Bible doesn't tell you "Marry Suzie, she's the one." The Bible will provide principles and guidelines on which to establish a relationship. As a single guy, I know that there are many single Christian young women who fit the biblical traits and characteristics for a godly mate. Yet, I can't marry every beautiful godly Christian gal out there! I can only settle down with one. That's where it is essential to have the peace of God concerning the situation, and sometimes it may be, though not always, that God may supernaturally reveal or confirm to you whether a certain gal is the one. The Holy Spirit, our Comforter and Counselor, is still capable of giving us guidance in things like this, which can influence the course of our lives.

Where does the BIBLE teach that once it was completed, we no longer have any need for dreams, visions, and supernatural experiences? If you're referring to "that which is perfect" in 1 Cor. 13, most theologians disagree that the reference there is concerning the completed biblical canon. If anything, this passage is dealing with the perfecting of love, which will be the greatest thing that remains. Paul was teaching that love is the fountainhead from which spiritual body ministry flows. Also, the historical record is against the cessationist view, in that there has always been a continuity, though not always regularly, of the charismatic revelatory gifts. The Church Fathers, and even Augustine (whom Calvin held in high esteem), wrote of supernatural experiences in their time, among their Christian communities.

Here's a question for you: if God is no longer giving visions, dreams, and prophetic words, then what do we make of reports of people in Muslim countries, whom are receiving visions about a Man dressed in white saying "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life", and upon hearing the Gospel preached by Bible-preaching missionaries, these Muslims realize that the man they saw is Jesus, and believe in Him for salvation? What are we to make of dreams which prompt believers to pray for family members in dire situations, and as a result, they are spared from tragedy? What are we to make of encounters where, upon meeting somebody for the first time, a believer receives insight into their lives, resulting in the person's conviction of sin, and conversion? These sound very biblical.

The main thing I've noticed you mentioned is a concern that one would add these visions, dreams, prophecies, etc., to the biblical record. As Christians who have the full Bible, any revelation received supernaturally is submitted to the authority of the written Word. I have yet to encounter any charismatic believers, to my knowledge, who would equate their dreams or visions with the Bible, or give them higher priority. Rather, the opposite is true, anything we receive supernaturally, we test and evaluate according to the Scriptures.

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

Surely there are things you believe God won't do. Chances are you base this off of scripture.

ex)
You are reformed, who are you to say God will not save every single soul? Well, you are a bible believing Christian, and according to what you read, you can not possibly say God will indeed save everyone.

If someone believes the word says without a doubt the revelatory gifts have ceased, they are no different than the example above, I think.

There are things God does or doesn't do, because of His character and nature. For instance, God doesn't tempt or cause people to sin, because sin is not in His nature. However, God does heal and share His heart with His people, because it's in His heart to heal and communicate with His children. We do not have an absentee Father, praise God!

 

[tigersnare]

There are things God does or doesn't do, because of His character and nature. For instance, God doesn't tempt or cause people to sin, because sin is not in His nature. However, God does heal and share His heart with His people, because it's in His heart to heal and communicate with His children. We do not have an absentee Father, praise God!

Not sure what this had to do with my post....all I was doing was trying to answer your question and showing you how we can believe that God will or will not do something and not be limiting his sovereignty.

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

Not sure what this had to do with my post....all I was doing was trying to answer your question and showing you how we can believe that God will or will not do something and not be limiting his sovereignty.

Based on the Scriptural witness, we know what to believe concerning God's sovereignty in His ways and operations. The issue at hand is that people can believe something about God's ways that is inaccurate or wrong, and they will claim Scripture backs up their position.

Anyways, I found a link to an article by a Reformed theologian that believes in the continuity of spiritual gifts: Experiential Calvinism and the Charismatic Gifts(Matt Slick, B.A., M.Div.). Very informative! Mr. Slick also has profiles of John Knox, Robert Fleming, and George Wishart, leaders of the Reformation in Scotland, who though being Reformed and strongly Calvinistic in doctrine, experienced the gifts of the Spirit, including prophecies and visionary experiences, in their lives and ministries. They certainly were not cessationists.

 

[James1979]

It says in scripture that Satan comes as an angel of Light. So he can come looking just like Jesus Christ. Satan is basically copying what God has done in the new testament era and he's still doing it. I mean if we compared the stories how the new testament were receiving dreams/visions from God, it was added to the word of God. For today, people are supposely still receiving dreams/visions/voices why isn't it added to the bible if it's from God. Throughout the bible whenever God revealed himself and spoke to the indiviual it was added in the bible. Satan can do all the things that are happening now. God has given him permission to do so. Revelation talks about how God told Satan that he can only touch those who are not written in the book of life. I'm not saying that every indiviual who are experience these supernatural and getting a kick out of it and thinking it's the best thing that has ever happen to them will be condemn because God can pull them out of that delusion. I almost fell into that snare and I thank God for his mercy because that could of been me. It was too close of a call for me to be involve in those kind of activities. Well I'm off to bed, goodnight.

God Bless

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

It says in scripture that Satan comes as an angel of Light. So he can come looking just like Jesus Christ. Satan is basically copying what God has done in the new testament era and he's still doing it. I mean if we compared the stories how the new testament were receiving dreams/visions from God, it was added to the word of God. For today, people are supposely still receiving dreams/visions/voices why isn't it added to the bible if it's from God. Throughout the bible whenever God revealed himself and spoke to the indiviual it was added in the bible. Satan can do all the things that are happening now. God has given him permission to do so. Revelation talks about how God told Satan that he can only touch those who are not written in the book of life. I'm not saying that every indiviual who are experience these supernatural and getting a kick out of it and thinking it's the best thing that has ever happen to them will be condemn because God can pull them out of that delusion. I almost fell into that snare and I thank God for his mercy because that could of been me. It was too close of a call for me to be involve in those kind of activities. Well I'm off to bed, goodnight.

God Bless

Hi James,

It is true that Satan comes as an angel of light, and that there is such a thing as a false Jesus. We see that in dealing with the Mormons, the JWs, the New Age, Islam, and many other false religions. But logically, there would be no need for Satan to circulate counterfeit spiritual experiences if the real spiritual experiences were still in existence. The only reason a counterfeit can exist is because there is such a thing as the "genuine article." You don't see counterfeit $3 bills with the photo of Mickey Mouse being circulated, because there are no $3 Mickey Mouse bills. Rather, you will see counterfeits that seek to approximate the appearance of real currency. Thus is what we face today. The Scriptures say that in the last days, false prophets would arise, deceiving many. Some people, however, interpret that verse to mean that all the prophets arising in the last days would be false. That is not the case. The only way there can be false prophets is if there are true prophets in existence, and the church is called to be a prophetic people.

As for prophetic experiences in biblical times being added to the scriptural canon, the ones we have mentioned in Scripture are those which we needed to read about. One can be certain that the prophets and apostles of old saw and heard more from God, which they did not necessarily write down for us, but would agree with the testimony of God's Word. Even the apostle John wrote that Jesus did many more things, that if all of them were written, the world itself could not contain the books about them. So, there were spiritual experiences that took place, which were not intended for the public domain of Scripture, but following God's character, would not contradict the Scriptures. Case in point, not every dream or vision, except those which God desired to be in the Scriptures, was canonical in nature.

 

[tigersnare]

I don't know...I'm not sure what to think, I had some bad experiences with myself and others around me before I became Reformed, passing around "words from God", and "prophecies" and the works. People taking "spiritual gift tests", talking about what gifts they have as if that is some reason to listen to them....it was just awful.

Just so you know where I"m coming from, used to if I had a feeling something was wrong but didn't have any scripture for it, but then later found some, I would have said to others "God spoke to me and told me it was wrong to help those who won't work."

When that actualy did happen recently I just said, to myself, "Hmm, I'm glad there was scripture to support the feeling I had about it".

Basically because I've come to know my sin much better through the preaching of Reformed Doctrines by the grace of God, I'm much more cautious about throwing around terms like "revelation", "words", or "speaking into his/her life", you know, that whole language of everything to do with the spirit.

I'm not saying I'm right...I'm saying something inside of me raises a flag when I turn on the T.V. and see Hillsong having a rock concert with choreographed dancers on stage with 11K people in the audience "worshiping God", Benny Hinn pushing people on the ground aka them "falling out in the spirit", people giving each other "words from God", speaking in tounges (mumbling giberish), saying people have "spirits of this, or a spirit of that", casting out demons, ect......something just isn't right to me...

Used to I would have said, "I have discerned these things to be not of God"...not I just say "hmm, I wonder why I feel this way"...