Reformation Day!

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relspace

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Maybe because a number of those "parts" keep opening up threads that completely and purposely mischaracterize our worship and our understanding of the Christian faith? Maybe because they say really obnoxious things to us and act very un-Christian-like to us most of the time? Maybe because quite a few of you do not acknowledge us as part of the body of Christ, actually teaching that we are the harlot of Babylon, our Pope being the antiChrist and his office being referenced as numerically equalling 666 the number of the Beast, etc, etc, lie after lie, slander after slander?

Yeah, some part of the body of Christ do you show us you are.... :doh::sigh:

Well I do not do these things and I will not even respond to your insults and provocation in kind. I have great respect for the RC church. My knowledge of them far exceeds my knowledge of the EO church. There are many Christian denominations and other religions that have given me reason to respect and admire them for some features while I am repelled by other aspects, and encounters with particular members play no small part in this.

Obviously I believe in the Protestant idea of where the authority for Christian belief lies and therein is our disagreement, and why I have participated in this thread in defense of the Protestant point of view. But I am quite agreeable to the Christian consensus that this issue is one of the non-essentials. How about you?
 
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relspace

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Thank you for the Regarding the essentials, in Eastern Orthodox reckoning: this is complex topic, because as you have already began to distinguish, there are levels and contexts within the term 'essentials.'
Yes I did suspect this. But because I do believe in and endorse a Chritian consensus I distinguish btween what I call essential and what I call important. For example, the Protestant idea that upholds the authority of scripture and distrusting any human authority, I consider important but not essential. The born-again belief that salvation consists of asking Jesus into your heart, repenting your sins and putting your fate into the hands of God, I consider important but not essential. Because of this distinction I can classify those who do not embrace these beliefs of protestants and born-again Christians as Christian. By this consensus and mutual support we make the position of Christianity stronger in the confrontation with those who are "opposed" (like the Mormons, Jehova Witnesses, etc.....), and so it seems worthwhile to me.

It is when we take the theological and philosophical into the practical, and when we discuss ecclesiology, that we find that we differ on essentials. Ethos and praxis- belief in context and action- are building blocks of the essentials.
Yes because of the wide variety of practice even among Protestants, practice is not considered among the essentials. It may seem to you that practice is not even considered important among Protestants and especially to those called born-again Christians. But this is deceptive because the very belief that particular practice is not important, is itself considered extremely important for such are considered attempts to manipulate God and buy his favor in the manner of non-Christian religions. So perhaps it would be good to suggest to such born-again Christians (like myself) that this particular belief is not itself among the essentials?

To us, apostolic succession is an essential. It is not a 'bragging right,' it is our mtual submission in love. I do not wish tosay 'we have apostolic sucession, you do not.' Rather, this is to us an essential upon which you and I do not concur. To us, it is an indispensable part of our ecclesiology, as it was said "where the Bishop is, there is the Church."
You call this essential and Protestant belief in opposition to this we call important. And therein lies the problem does it not?

Perhaps some of these issues are, to you, minor. That is fine- to you, they are not essential. To us, they are essential- not in defining who is Christian, but what is the Church. We don't disagree that there is a spiritual component of the walls of the Church.
But they are NOT minor at all. Why else do think the discussion of them leads to such frayed tempers and harsh words? The clear distinction between what is essential and what is important is what makes a Christian consensus (that includes both Protestants and Catholics) and forums like this one possible.

So from my point of view, being Christian and being a member of the body of Christ are the same thing. Am I not correct in understanding that you do not consider these the same thing? But in that case, do you not consider Protestants to be Christian in belief only but not in fact - not in practice? If this is the case, then is reasonable to be upset if Protestants come to the same conclusion about members of the EO church for complementary reasons?

It is the question of this definition of Church which often offends Protestants, who seem to at once reject and accept the famous injunction 'he who does not have the Church for a mother does not have God for a Father.'
But I deny that we reject it at all. We have the Church for a mother, for the Church is led not by men but by God and administered not by men but by the Holy Spirit. For where two or more are gathered, there is Jesus also, and where Jesus resides in a gathering of men and women, there is the Church.

Your definition of the church does not offend us only your attitude that we must accept your definition, for obviously we do not. Furthermore, is it reasonable for you to be upset if our definition of the Church only includes those gatherings of Christians that actually believe in such a church?

Christianity has become a very complex set of overlapping ideas, practices, and beliefs. As my brother has said, we will not get anywhere negotiating those differences by either denying or minimizing those differences, or by somehow equating them in some feel good fashion. You stick to your essentials as you see them, and I will respectfully assert ours. That is healthy dialogue.
Yes indeed, as long as we do not expect to convince others to accept our own point of view, we can engage in effective dialogue. Then such healthy dialogue helps us to understand just exactly how we stand in relationship to each other. Isn't that right?
 
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thereselittleflower

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relspace:
So from my point of view, being Christian and being a member of the body of Christ are the same thing.

Being a Christian is being a member of the Body of Christ . . they are the same thing . . .

But we believe the body of Christ is more than simply mystical and invisible. . .

We believe the body of Christ is also highly visible and corporal in the world . . . We believe this is manifested in the Catholic Church, to which all believers are joined, even if not visibly and formally.


Jesus gave us a very important characteristic of His Church.

He said we are to be a CITY set on hill which cannot be hid.

A city on a hill has a very high visible profile to the world aroun it.

It is prominent, highly visible, easy to locate and distinguish and indentify for the world around it.

Because of this, the world around it can easily find it and come to it if they so desire . . .


There is only one Church on this earth that fits this description . . . there is only one Church which the whole world knows where it is, where to find it, how to identify it . . .

That is the Catholic Church. . . no other Chuch is so highlyvisible and prominent to the world, like a city set on a hill . . It is exactly that!


And so, we see the Catholic Church as being the visibile body of Christ to the world, with all true believers in Christ joined to Her, even if not visibly and formally.

Protestantism tends to believe only in the mystical, invisible nature of the Body of Christ . . .


the body of Christ is both visible to the world as a city set on a hill, as is the Catholic Church, and mystical . . . .



Peace
 
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relspace

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Maybe its because Christianity isn't about concensus, yet that is what you are looking for, that is causing the problems?
Not at all. I simply began to perceive such a consensus some time ago and I see this forum as evidence that, although it may have its difficulties, this consensus does exist.

So since you imply that you do not believe in any such consensus, then let me ask you why you participate in this forum? Why do you not simply have an Catholic forum or restrict your posts to the Catholic denomination section?

Catholic membership drive? just slumming? or something else?
 
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thereselittleflower

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Not at all. I simply began to perceive such a consensus some time ago and I see this forum as evidence that, although it may have its difficulties, this consensus does exist.

So since you imply that you do not believe in any such consensus, then let me ask you why you participate in this forum?

So, because you see this form as evidence of consensus, then consensus is the purpose of this forum? :scratch:

Why do I personally participate?

I could go a couple different ways here. . I could say that it is clear that the contribution to the discussion I just made is being side stepped so that the focus can be put on me personally and that is inapprorpiate and a type of Straw man argument . .

This thread is not about me relspace . . . :)

I could explain myself and simply answer your question, but I wonder if that would do any good given the obvious sarcasm in your words that follow:

Why do you not simply have an EO forum or restrict your posts to the EO denomination section?

See what I mean? First of all, even though I once was EO, am I EO?

EO membership drive? just slumming? or something else?

See what I mean? dripping with sarcasm . . .

that tells me these are not genuine questions . . .


I do not see where relspace gets to define the purpose of this forum . . . . . . . . D

Did Erwin give you this authority and responsiblity to define the purpose of this forum and suggest to people where they should or should not post?


Such words are quite revealing as to what one's true intent is . . .



Peace
 
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relspace

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So, because you see this form as evidence of consensus, then consensus is the purpose of this forum?

This thread is not about me relspace . . . :)

I do not see where relspace gets to define the purpose of this forum . . . . . . . . D
I made no comment about or reference to the purpose of this forum.

Why do I personally participate?

I could go a couple different ways here. . I could say that it is clear that the contribution to the discussion I just made is being side stepped so that the focus can be put on me personally and that is inapprorpiate and a type of Straw man argument . .
Are you refering to your second post (of the two in a row), which I haven't gotten to yet since I was in the middle of writing my last post when that one appeared? I responded to your question in the first post, what else was I supposed to do?

See what I mean? dripping with sarcasm . . .
Ok. A bad habit I guess.

that tells me these are not genuine questions . . .
That depends on what you mean. It is not simple curiosity. It is confusion about why you would participate with us less fortunate souls. Is it just slumming?

Such words are quite revealing as to what one's true intent is . . .
Ok enlighten me. No, sarcasm aside, what you think it reveals about me will help me understand you better.
 
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relspace

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Being a Christian is being a member of the Body of Christ . . they are the same thing . . .

And so, we see the Catholic Church as being the visibile body of Christ to the world, with all true believers in Christ joined to Her, even if not visibly and formally.

The Church has indeed become more visible to all due the missions and evangelistic efforts of Christians of all denominations.

As far as I can tell from this alone then, we only disagree upon what this Church is called. You call it the Catholic church and I do not. I am even willing to concede the important role of the Catholic church by virtue of the size of its membership. I just do not acknowledge the authority of its human leadership over the whole body of Christ. If the pope/Rome excommunicated me as the pope/Rome has excommunicated many people in the past I would attach no significance to it at all.

RC 1.1-1.5 billion?
Protestant 630 million?
EO 297 million?
 
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thereselittleflower

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The Church has indeed become more visible to all due the missions and evangelistic efforts of Christians of all denominations.

As far as I can tell from this alone then, we only disagree upon what this Church is called. You call it the Catholic church and I do not. I am even willing to concede the important role of the Catholic church by virtue of the size of its membership. I just do not acknowledge the authority of its human leadership over the whole body of Christ. If the pope/Rome excommunicated me as the pope/Rome has excommunicated many people in the past I would attach no significance to it at all.

RC 1.1-1.5 billion?
Protestant 630 million?
EO 297 million?

Whatever you acknowledge or do not acknowledge is not really the point . .

The point is that protestantism presents a confused picture to the world . . not a city on a hill that can easily be identified, easily found, easily entered into . . .

Instead of a city on a hill, you have a bunch of scattered villiages . . a multiplicity to choose from . . it presents confusion . . . Which one?


That is not what Jesus said His Church would be.


A City on a hill presents a unified, single entity . . . Protestantism is not a single unified entity . . it is a multiplicity . . . And because of this confusing picture it presents to the world, the world does not recognize it easily, or find it easily . . . In fact in the missionary endeavors of many protestant denominations, they are COMPETING with each other, trying to win converts, not only from the unsaved, but from other Christian groups.

In addition, the world does not know where the Lutheran Church is located - even which one of the several, or the Presbyterian Church, or the Methodist, or any one of the amny denominations.

Protestantism, and its denominations, does not fit this description of Jesus . ..


There is only one Church in the world which fits the description Jesus gave of a city on a hill . . . .. The Catholic Church.




Peace
 
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thereselittleflower

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I made no comment about or reference to the purpose of this forum.


Are you refering to your second post (of the two in a row), which I haven't gotten to yet since I was in the middle of writing my last post when that one appeared? I responded to your question in the first post, what else was I supposed to do?


Ok. A bad habit I guess.


That depends on what you mean. It is not simple curiosity. It is confusion about why you would participate with us less fortunate souls. Is it just slumming?


Ok enlighten me. No, sarcasm aside, what you think it reveals about me will help me understand you better.

Again, dripping with sarcasm . . . I am sorry . . . . The sarcasm has to go . . .




Peace
 
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relspace

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The point is that protestantism presents a confused picture to the world . . not a city on a hill that can easily be identified, easily found, easily entered into . . .
Well frankly I think it is the Catholic church which presents a confusing picture. The Protestants point to God and the gospel, nothing could be simpler. But the Catholics point to their church and its chaotic contradictory history and politics. The point is that what you see is not what I see, and when I look at the Catholic church I do NOT see a city on a hill at all but a fortress out of medeval times.

Instead of a city on a hill, you have a bunch of scattered villiages . . a multiplicity to choose from . . it presents confusion . . . Which one?
Yeah! Kind of like San Francisco, with a free market economy, where you can find you are looking for, or open up a business for yourself. In a real city you can find all different kinds of people, artists and teachers all working to contribute their creativity for the benefit and service of everyone. This is such an improvement over the fortress ruled by a single tyrant and filled with people who are little more than servants to this one man. A real city reflects the beauty of the natural world with all the endless diversity that God gave it.

In addition, the world does not know where the Lutheran Church is located - even which one of the several, or the Presbyterian Church, or the Methodist, or any one of the amny denominations.
I have news for you. The world is people and it includes the small poor villiage where protestant missionaries came to build a church and preach the gospel. That is the church which they see, not the proud catholic church with its money and power in Rome. And we teach them where the church really is, not in Rome in the hands of cardinals and the pope, but right there where they need it and in the hands of God.

Give it up. I do not see what you see. The world no longer needs the clergy of the Catholic church to make their decisions for them.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Well frankly I think it is the Catholic church which presents a confusing picture. The Protestants point to God and the gospel, nothing could be simpler. But the Catholics point to their church and its chaotic contradictory history and politics. The point is that what you see is not what I see, and when I look at the Catholic church I do NOT see a city on a hill at all but a fortress out of medeval times.


Yeah! Kind of like San Francisco, with a free market economy, where you can find you are looking for, or open up a business for yourself. In a real city you can find all different kinds of people, artists and teachers all working to contribute their creativity for the benefit and service of everyone. This is such an improvement over the fortress ruled by a single tyrant and filled with people who are little more than servants to this one man. A real city reflects the beauty of the natural world with all the endless diversity that God gave it.


I have news for you. The world is people and it includes the small poor villiage where protestant missionaries came to build a church and preach the gospel. That is the church which they see, not the proud catholic church with its money and power in Rome. And we teach them where the church really is, not in Rome in the hands of cardinals and the pope, but right there where they need it and in the hands of God.

Give it up.

Give it up? :eek: NEVER! I will proclaim it from the highest mountaintop! I will never give up what Jesus died to give us . . . His Bride, birthed from His side, The Church.

I will proclaim my love of the Church with Peter at its helm loudly and strongly!

There is no other where the fulness of truth may be found.

Give up the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth?

NEVER! :)


I do not see what you see. The world no longer needs the clergy of the Catholic church to make their decisions for them.

And so. . . because you do not see what I see, because you look at the stained glass window from the outside with the sunlight hitting it, where all looks chaotic and ugly to you, and I, on the other hand, am looking at the same stained glass window from the INSIDE with the SONLIGHT streaming in illuminating it in all its majesty and splendor and beauty . . . because you do not see what I see, I MUST be wrong and you MUST be right,about the Catholic Church and what the world needs . . .



I see . . . . :)



Praise God for the Catholic Church, the bulwark of faith in this world, keeping the Gates of Hell at bay . . .

Praise Him all ye heavenly hosts! Sing Alleluia! :clap:

AMEN! :amen:
 
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Epiphanygirl

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Well frankly I think it is the Catholic church which presents a confusing picture. The Protestants point to God and the gospel, nothing could be simpler. But the Catholics point to their church and its chaotic contradictory history and politics. The point is that what you see is not what I see, and when I look at the Catholic church I do NOT see a city on a hill at all but a fortress out of medeval times.


Yeah! Kind of like San Francisco, with a free market economy, where you can find you are looking for, or open up a business for yourself. In a real city you can find all different kinds of people, artists and teachers all working to contribute their creativity for the benefit and service of everyone. This is such an improvement over the fortress ruled by a single tyrant and filled with people who are little more than servants to this one man. A real city reflects the beauty of the natural world with all the endless diversity that God gave it.


I have news for you. The world is people and it includes the small poor villiage where protestant missionaries came to build a church and preach the gospel. That is the church which they see, not the proud catholic church with its money and power in Rome. And we teach them where the church really is, not in Rome in the hands of cardinals and the pope, but right there where they need it and in the hands of God.

Give it up. I do not see what you see. The world no longer needs the clergy of the Catholic church to make their decisions for them.
Is that why no two Protestant churches teach the same doctrine....even splitting up amongst themselves?
You are honestly saying that the Catholic faith does not point to God? Ahhh...I don't think you actually wanna bring church politics into this....would be a big mistake...

The second highlight is a bunch of nonsense...I can't believe that you, yourself actually believe that.

Really....funny, a the Catholic missions around the world in poor countries too...we lead the way in missionary work...always have since 33 A.D.
the Apostolic Church isn't going anywhere...we will continue to spread the Gospel to the world.....we will continue to be that loud voice for all of Christianity....when the Pope speaks.....people actually listen...even non-Catholics.........get used to that;)
 
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Ann M

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Well frankly I think it is the Catholic church which presents a confusing picture. The Protestants point to God and the gospel, nothing could be simpler. But the Catholics point to their church and its chaotic contradictory history and politics. The point is that what you see is not what I see, and when I look at the Catholic church I do NOT see a city on a hill at all but a fortress out of medeval times.

:D :D lol! One could say the same about the Protestant Church. when I see the Catholic Church, I see a tradition dating back to the time of Christ. A tradition of Faith and Hope, and a tradition that shows us that we are of man, capable of fault, and ready to confess.

When I try to see the Protestant faith I see division and competition. I see many proclaiming to be one, and one proclaiming to be many. And I see glass houses.

In all I have seen bigotry and hate. I have seen greed for, money and power. But I haven't always seen tolerance, acceptance, and admittance of fault.

Yeah! Kind of like San Francisco, with a free market economy, where you can find you are looking for, or open up a business for yourself. In a real city you can find all different kinds of people, artists and teachers all working to contribute their creativity for the benefit and service of everyone. This is such an improvement over the fortress ruled by a single tyrant and filled with people who are little more than servants to this one man. A real city reflects the beauty of the natural world with all the endless diversity that God gave it.

Yet the Catholic Church is like a country. We have appointed leaders, we have voices, we have opinions. We have diversity, and faith. We have suppport for those that need it. And most importantly we have rules! In all countries, all states, and all areas of society there are rules that govern the people. In the Catholic Church we can show you our 'rule' book, we can show you in black and white what holds us accountable, what is expected of us, and consequences. How many Protestant Churches can do this? How many can truly call themselves communities, if they cannot show us one of the very basics required for a community to survive.

I have news for you. The world is people and it includes the small poor villiage where protestant missionaries came to build a church and preach the gospel. That is the church which they see, not the proud catholic church with its money and power in Rome. And we teach them where the church really is, not in Rome in the hands of cardinals and the pope, but right there where they need it and in the hands of God.

Once upon a time, it was the Catholic Missionaries that visited the small village. And today? They still do, but you don't see it. A Catholic is not called upon to stand on the street corner and preach. A Catholic is not called upon to bully, call names or berate others for thier choice of faith. A Catholic is called upon to live their faith. 'Do not preach with words, preach with actions' Many, many Catholics daily do this for people in their communities and elsewhere. They see God daily in the people they assist, the hungry mouths, the imprisoned, the weak, the displaced, and they quietly go about doing as Jesus commanded.

What you see is the history of the Church. a history that is just as easily seen in Russia, in Greece, or in some of the mansions, 'superchurches' or tv programs of some of today's Protestant Churches.


Give it up. I do not see what you see. The world no longer needs the clergy of the Catholic church to make their decisions for them.

I do not ask you to see what I see, for you never will. For each of us is different, unique. And each of us looks to God for something that only we can find, and which we may not even realise we are looking ofr.

And whilst you may not need my Church, and I may not need your Church, it is an unavoidable fact that if it were not for my Church your Church would not be here today.
 
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canadiancatholic

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Give it up? :eek: NEVER! I will proclaim it from the highest mountaintop! I will never give up what Jesus died to give us . . . His Bride, birthed from His side, The Church.

I will proclaim my love of the Church with Peter at its helm loudly and strongly!

There is no other where the fulness of truth may be found.

Give up the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth?

NEVER! :)




And so. . . because you do not see what I see, because you look at the stained glass window from the outside with the sunlight hitting it, where all looks chaotic and ugly to you, and I, on the other hand, am looking at the same stained glass window from the INSIDE with the SONLIGHT streaming in illuminating it in all its majesty and splendor and beauty . . . because you do not see what I see, I MUST be wrong and you MUST be right,about the Catholic Church and what the world needs . . .



I see . . . . :)



Praise God for the Catholic Church, the bulwark of faith in this world, keeping the Gates of Hell at bay . . .

Praise Him all ye heavenly hosts! Sing Alleluia! :clap:

AMEN! :amen:



I second that emotion!!! I see the church as what Jesus said it would be and one of the biggest hints that is overlooked by protestants is that for all the turmoil that has surrounded our great church was prophecied by Christ himself. The gates of hell will not prevail against her, not can not prevail, but WILL NOT prevail. Big Clue!
 
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relspace

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One could say the same about the Protestant Church. when I see the Catholic Church, I see a tradition dating back to the time of Christ.
Yes the Mormons and the JWs make the same claim and I don't don't see what you see and I certainly don't see what they see.

When I try to see the Protestant faith I see division and competition. I see many proclaiming to be one, and one proclaiming to be many. And I see glass houses.
But I see a table with many many legs to stand on.

In all I have seen bigotry and hate. I have seen greed for, money and power. But I haven't always seen tolerance, acceptance, and admittance of fault.
Yes, so do I, in the history of both Catholicism and Protestantism. And sadly there are Protestant groups which are still abomnable on different issues, like Bob Jones University in regards to racism. But I also still see flaws in the Catholic church in regards to tolerance, acceptance, and admittance of fault.

We have diversity, and faith.
Yes indeed the Catholic church certainly does and this is one of the causes I have to admire the Catholic church greatly as I have said several times before.

How many Protestant Churches can do this? How many can truly call themselves communities, if they cannot show us one of the very basics required for a community to survive.
Most if not all of them.

Once upon a time, it was the Catholic Missionaries that visited the small village. And today? They still do, but you don't see it.
You mistake me for I do see it. There have been a lot of missionaries both Catholic and Protestant who have given their lives to carry the gospel to every corner of the earth.

A Protestant is not called upon to stand on the street corner and preach. A Protestant is not called upon to bully, call names or berate others for thier choice of faith. A Protestant is called upon to live their faith. 'Do not preach with words, preach with actions' Many, many Protestant daily do this for people in their communities and elsewhere. They see God daily in the people they assist, the hungry mouths, the imprisoned, the weak, the displaced, and they quietly go about doing as Jesus commanded.

I do not ask you to see what I see, for you never will. For each of us is different, unique. And each of us looks to God for something that only we can find, and which we may not even realise we are looking ofr.
Yes indeed. And so you give thanks to God for the Catholic church and I give thanks to God for the Protestant reformation and we both give thanks for the counter reformation.

And whilst you may not need my Church, and I may not need your Church, it is an unavoidable fact that if it were not for my Church your Church would not be here today.
OH! BUT I DID NOT SAY THAT I DID NOT NEED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! I SAID NO SUCH THING!!!!! I only said that Christians do not need the clergy of the Catholic church to make their decisions for them. But there is a lot to do in the world so EVERYONE is needed. The days where people can live in their own private community ignoring the rest of the world is gone. Religion is part of the solution not the problem. The Catholic church is a big part of the solution and everyone needs its efforts.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Yes the Mormons and the JWs make the same claim and I don't don't see what you see and I certainly don't see what they see.

Where are their direct ties to the Apostles themselves?

There are none . .

Anyone can claim anything . . just because they make such false claims, and such claims are similar to the Catholic claims, that doesn't make the Catholici claim false any more than the Mormons and JW claiming to be Chrisitanity makes Christianity false . .

You would have to doubt all of Christianity using your logic . .

Do you see the fallacy in your line of reasoning?


Peace
 
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Where are their direct ties to the Apostles themselves?

There are none . .
And I see none in the Catholic church either.

You would have to doubt all of Christianity using your logic . .

Do you see the fallacy in your line of reasoning?
What logic? what reasoning? Are you under the mistaken impression that I am disproving your claim by some logical argument? I am not sure that is even possible to do for either your claim or the claim of the Mormons or of the JW's. I would not try. I am simply saying that I do not see the possibility that your claims have any more importance than their claims. I do not listen to theirs and I do not listen to yours and I will not listen to those of the EO church and I will not listen to such a claim by any church or religion. I will not be distracted by these claims from what is important, for all these claims seem no different to me than the apostles squabbling over who of them is greatest. I rebuke you all in the name of Jesus, who rebuked His apostles for this same thing.
 
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