Red Foxes Talking Circle

[GigageiTsula]

GigageiTsula, You're not the only one. I feel the same way.

Thank you for telling me that.

It irks me that many american christians talk about America's christian foundations, yada, yada, and the so called founding fathers being put on pedistals as if they are biblical characters, etc.

Yes, I know. It just sickens me when I am told that this country was 'founded' on Christian priniciples. It is no wonder so many American NDNs and First Nations people despise Christianity.

I've gotten into some heated debates in other threads on this subject.

Oh, I have, too.

I feel this all the time, too. I won't even watch or listen to certain christian programs because of this(or go to certain churches). I can't stomach the America jerUSAlem, etc etc.

I had one American NDN tell me that Manifest Destiny is no different then Zionism. I had not thought of it that way before.

It also really saddens me to see more of the land ruined and made into carboncopy shopping centers, malls, Apartments, townhouses that look all the same.

I think that way a lot myself, especially when I am in Oklahoma visiting my family. I was told my ancestors, through the blood line of my birth mother, traveled the Trial of Tears, and that very few survived it. And since I am Choctaw as well, I cannot help but wonder if my ancestors from that blood line traveled that death trial, too.

It depresses me and yet, I also know that when the Lord returns, He will bring it all back--and will restore the Land, animals, trees, etc.

I am reassured to know that the L-rd will undo all the damage done to his creation in his name.

Oh yeah, that powow that I'm going to be at is this one!
http://www.mtsu.edu/~powwow/

Very cool, my friend.

 

[wolfman544]

I speak in love and respect of everyone. I know I may be sticking my neck on the guillotine because of what I am about to discuss. But I am in conflict and am in need of the spiritual counsel of my friends. There is a discussion of who is the best U.S. President in another forum. I personally find such a discussion insulting. Why? Because I am an American NDN, and I do not see how I can honor the memory of any U.S. President or see one as the best. I do see one as the worst though and that is Andrew Jackson. So there lies my inner confliction and turmoil. The 'founding fathers' established this country with land that did not belong to them and claimed lordship over these lands behind the cloak of Christianity. I ask, how can I be a proud american after what was done to the American NDNs in the founding of this nation and what happened to them thereafter? I simply cannot in good conscience. If I make it known I question whether I should be patriotic, I am often met with criticism by those who believe in G-d and country. I am often confronted with accusations of being anti-american and treated as if I am related to Benedict Arnold. But I feel if I am patriotic then I betray my people and dishonor the memory and sacrifices of my ancestors. What am I to do? I know what was done to the North American Indians in the past cannot be altered, but knowing that does not does not alter the grief I feel in my heart because of it. I look around me and all I see is what was once Indian land. Indian land that is now dominated by others who claim lordship over it. The state of Oklahoma was once Indian territory but even that land was taken. Indian land that is now fenced off, with more and more of it being polluted and stripped of its natural beauty. It just makes my heart sick. This land is dying and there are very few who care. It seems to me that there are so many whose only concern is dominating more. I am in need of spiritual counsel and healing myself.

No need to apologize, politics is the default sore point in conversation. And humor aside I don't think you are sticking you neck out, at the least, I have no axe.

Personally, I'm not so very fond of nationalism to begin with. Worshipping a nation, feeling pride for the mere fact of living on a certain stretch of land - that just doesn't make much sense to me.

Then again, nationalism and patriotism have been BIG taboos in Germany ever since the end of WWII. We've experienced what the ideal of nationalism may lead to, and it has made us exceptionally sensitive to its pitfalls. It's but one small step from believing your own nation to be the best in the world to believing that all others are intrinsically inferior, and ought to be treated as such.

I'm actually amazed by the American self-perception: ritual flag-worshipping, placing your hand on your heart while reciting oaths or singing the anthem... all of that strikes me as pretty odd - especially in the light of the violent past that you mentioned.

Regardless of all this, I *do* believe that there could be such a thing as positive patriotism - and that would *definitely* include the sort of criticism you mentioned. A true patriot, in my book, would not ignore or whitewash such dark spots in the past, but draw attention to them, so that the mistakes of the past can be avoided in the future. Thus, a nation might work towards living up to its vision, rather than just projecting an idealized image that hides the rot underneath.

And yes, I consider it the US's duty to cease their discriminative practices towards the indigenous peoples. Otherwise, the American Dream will always be a big lie that was built upon a ruthless genocide.

I agree with you there.

GigageiTsula, You're not the only one. I feel the same way. It irks me that many american christians talk about America's christian foundations, yada, yada, and the so called founding fathers being put on pedistals as if they are biblical characters, etc. I've gotten into some heated debates in other threads on this subject. I feel this all the time, too. I won't even watch or listen to certain christian programs because of this(or go to certain churches). I can't stomach the America jerUSAlem, etc etc.

It also really saddens me to see more of the land ruined and made into carboncopy shopping centers, malls, Apartments, townhouses that look all the same. It depresses me and yet, I also know that when the Lord returns, He will bring it all back--and will restore the Land, animals, trees, etc.

Oh yeah, that powow that I'm going to be at is this one!
http://www.mtsu.edu/~powwow/

They are putting yet another shopping center up near here, right next to 4 others. Why?

The founding fathers shouldn't be that idealized no. But, I do think we need to pray for those currently in office. So, we don't spiral down further and faster than we already are.

Thank you for telling me that.



Yes, I know. It just sickens me when I am told that this country was 'founded' on Christian priniciples. It is no wonder so many American NDNs and First Nations people despise Christianity.



Oh, I have, too.



I had one American NDN tell me that Manifest Destiny is no different then Zionism. I had not thought of it that way before.



I think that way a lot myself, especially when I am in Oklahoma visiting my family. I was told my ancestors, through the blood line of my birth mother, traveled the Trial of Tears, and that very few survived it. And since I am Choctaw as well, I cannot help but wonder if my ancestors from that blood line traveled that death trial, too.



I am reassured to know that the L-rd will undo all the damage done to his creation in his name.



Very cool, my friend.

He will indeed undo the damage done to creation. Well, after it is utterly destroyed and elements all melt away. But then He will remake it, the way He intended it to be and stay, before sin entered and the world began it's decay.

 

[GigageiTsula]

Read The Great Forgetting, and then I ask for comments on what was said.

 

[cherokeehippie]

I'm not surprised that the museum in Washington DC whitewashes the truth!! That's because the government is controlled by luciferian racists and it has always been that way!! Sorry to sound harsh but it's the literal truth!! THe real rulers are also behind the scenes, the president, congress, etc are just puppets on the luciferian strings. Want to understand what's behind that?? and manifest destiny??? then, you have to get and see the dvds:
"secret mysteries of America's Beginnings, Vol 1, The New Atlantis,
http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Myster...=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1196713160&sr=8-2
RIDDLES in STONE, the secret architecture of Washington DC., VOl 2
http://www.amazon.com/Riddles-Stone...Washington/dp/B000P2XNBG/ref=pd_bxgy_d_text_b

Don't mean to do advertizement, but these dvds gave me a lot to digest on--I know I sound 'out there'. And I don't agree with everything in the dvd's--those who still want to think America was originally a 'christian country"
I knew I smelled a fish when I first heard about the museum a few years ago. Knew it woudl be off kilter. I'm not sure if I want to visit it or Washington DC either. Lots of creepy stuff there!!!
I believe that the luciferians want to give christianity a bad name by having the true christians to be the fall guy for what happened to our people. Jesus said that there would be tares in with the wheat, well, what happened is that there is infiltration of the church thru out history of tares, luciferians--starting with Constantine, ca 300 AD who kicked Jewish christians out of the church, and institutionalized christianity--making it into a state religion--and causing true christians, to be marginalized on the fringes of society. I think it would scare a lot of people to realize that many 'well known' ministers--televanglists, aren't what they seem!!! I heard rumors of satanic rituals at a certain well known christian university---I won't say who, but it's in Oklahoma!
Getting back to the church and the abusive boarding schools. Noticed it was the 'church' in cahoots with the government to abuse our people in the boarding schools!! It is 'institionalized state religion. Same as in Constantine's time. This institutionalized state christianity(it comes in all denominations) is what I believe is part of mystery Babylon. No wonder Jesus told us "Come out of her, my people and share not in her sins"--in Revelations. That means, yes, true christians have taken part in these sins of injustice to our people. I have a lot I wish I could share, and no...I'm not making this stuff up. I wish I could say more, but it would take a lot to tell, especially if others here haven't studied certain things.

 

[wolfman544]

I'm not surprised that the museum in Washington DC whitewashes the truth!! That's because the government is controlled by luciferian racists and it has always been that way!! Sorry to sound harsh but it's the literal truth!! THe real rulers are also behind the scenes, the president, congress, etc are just puppets on the luciferian strings. Want to understand what's behind that?? and manifest destiny??? then, you have to get and see the dvds:
"secret mysteries of America's Beginnings, Vol 1, The New Atlantis,
http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Myster...=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1196713160&sr=8-2
RIDDLES in STONE, the secret architecture of Washington DC., VOl 2
http://www.amazon.com/Riddles-Stone...Washington/dp/B000P2XNBG/ref=pd_bxgy_d_text_b

Don't mean to do advertizement, but these dvds gave me a lot to digest on--I know I sound 'out there'. And I don't agree with everything in the dvd's--those who still want to think America was originally a 'christian country"
I knew I smelled a fish when I first heard about the museum a few years ago. Knew it woudl be off kilter. I'm not sure if I want to visit it or Washington DC either. Lots of creepy stuff there!!!
I believe that the luciferians want to give christianity a bad name by having the true christians to be the fall guy for what happened to our people. Jesus said that there would be tares in with the wheat, well, what happened is that there is infiltration of the church thru out history of tares, luciferians--starting with Constantine, ca 300 AD who kicked Jewish christians out of the church, and institutionalized christianity--making it into a state religion--and causing true christians, to be marginalized on the fringes of society. I think it would scare a lot of people to realize that many 'well known' ministers--televanglists, aren't what they seem!!! I heard rumors of satanic rituals at a certain well known christian university---I won't say who, but it's in Oklahoma!
Getting back to the church and the abusive boarding schools. Noticed it was the 'church' in cahoots with the government to abuse our people in the boarding schools!! It is 'institionalized state religion. Same as in Constantine's time. This institutionalized state christianity(it comes in all denominations) is what I believe is part of mystery Babylon. No wonder Jesus told us "Come out of her, my people and share not in her sins"--in Revelations. That means, yes, true christians have taken part in these sins of injustice to our people. I have a lot I wish I could share, and no...I'm not making this stuff up. I wish I could say more, but it would take a lot to tell, especially if others here haven't studied certain things.

i don't know much on these things, but it definitely sounds like we need to pray and intercede for this countries leadership

 

[cherokeehippie]

Oh yeah, another thing--the smithsonian has been known to hide any evidence of giant skeletons, etc. Not only keep our ancestors bones from being return to tribal nations, but also hide giant skeletons. Why?? Okay, first of all, as we all know, giants are mention in the bible. Not just Goliath, but a brother of Goliath(who had 6 fingers and toes on each extremity), Og of Bashan, anakim, and the nephilim in Genesis 6:4 before the flood. Fallen angels mated with human women to produce these beings. That's were giants came from. Satan was trying to mess up the human race and keep Messiah from being born, as well as...I believe the antichrist is going to be a nephilim(but not necessarily a giant). Many tribal accounts have stories of giants. The Piautes out in Nevada have stories of red headed giants with double rows of teeth who were cannibals and ate people. All the tribes in the region got together to kill the giants--they killed the last of the giants in a cave--lovelock cave. Archaelogists later excavated it, and sure enough, there were red headed giant skeletons!! The luciferians are nephilim behind the scenes and they want to hide any evidence of their seed being on earth. That's why you have evolution being taught, and giant skeletons hiddened and covered up by the illuminati controlled smithsonian(same guys who run the so called American Indian museum) These same guys mated with our people [and all other nations around the world) and ate our people, then came in the form of illuminati to exterminate us and cause us to be offended by christianity thru the abusive boarding schools. (Today, they are using 'ufo abductions' to continue ..a modern form of genesis 6:4) I heard that people of Native Am and celtic descent are the ones abducted. So..they still like to pick on us

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Prayer is good and well, but maybe you should try a more active approach as well: public awareness is still pretty low, as people like to ignore unpleasant facts - a LOT. It doesn't have to be an accusation - after all, those responsible for the theft and the genocide have long since passed away, and no one alive today is directly responsible for what happened bakc then.
Encourage people to acknowledge the past, and work towards a better future. I know, that sounds easier than it is, but who's going to do it if not you? God works through people. We shouldn't just wait and watch how the greed of selfish people brings this world to ruin. There are many peaceful ways to stand against such practices - and isn't that what Jesus would want us to do?

 

[wolfman544]

Prayer is good and well, but maybe you should try a more active approach as well: public awareness is still pretty low, as people like to ignore unpleasant facts - a LOT. It doesn't have to be an accusation - after all, those responsible for the theft and the genocide have long since passed away, and no one alive today is directly responsible for what happened bakc then.
Encourage people to acknowledge the past, and work towards a better future. I know, that sounds easier than it is, but who's going to do it if not you? God works through people. We shouldn't just wait and watch how the greed of selfish people brings this world to ruin. There are many peaceful ways to stand against such practices - and isn't that what Jesus would want us to do?

You have a point there.

 

[mommavelvet]

Oh yeah, another thing--the smithsonian has been known to hide any evidence of giant skeletons, etc. Not only keep our ancestors bones from being return to tribal nations, but also hide giant skeletons. Why?? Okay, first of all, as we all know, giants are mention in the bible. Not just Goliath, but a brother of Goliath(who had 6 fingers and toes on each extremity), Og of Bashan, anakim, and the nephilim in Genesis 6:4 before the flood. Fallen angels mated with human women to produce these beings. That's were giants came from. Satan was trying to mess up the human race and keep Messiah from being born, as well as...I believe the antichrist is going to be a nephilim(but not necessarily a giant). Many tribal accounts have stories of giants. The Piautes out in Nevada have stories of red headed giants with double rows of teeth who were cannibals and ate people. All the tribes in the region got together to kill the giants--they killed the last of the giants in a cave--lovelock cave. Archaelogists later excavated it, and sure enough, there were red headed giant skeletons!! The luciferians are nephilim behind the scenes and they want to hide any evidence of their seed being on earth. That's why you have evolution being taught, and giant skeletons hiddened and covered up by the illuminati controlled smithsonian(same guys who run the so called American Indian museum) These same guys mated with our people [and all other nations around the world) and ate our people, then came in the form of illuminati to exterminate us and cause us to be offended by christianity thru the abusive boarding schools. (Today, they are using 'ufo abductions' to continue ..a modern form of genesis 6:4) I heard that people of Native Am and celtic descent are the ones abducted. So..they still like to pick on us

I personally know one of the archaeologists that excavated and studied Lovelock Cave in Nevada. I have been there, twice, in fact. He said nothing about the red-haired giants, although I have heard about them from another source. It is rather interesting the Bible speaks of giants, but there are no archaeological evidence for such people.

I am against messing with Indian graveyards - in spite of the fact I've studied archaeology. I am glad to see at least some of the skeletons are being given back to the tribes for reburial. Always it seemed to me to be a shame, because it never should have been that way. It is worse than a shame, it is a tragedy.

 

[GigageiTsula]

This dialogue is good, and I am glad to see it. Speaking of these things in public view does raise awareness, but unfortunately it causes anger in some people who resent being confronted with truth, too.

 

[GigageiTsula]

Just last week, I was called a 'half-breed' by someone I never suspected it from, and I was completely blindsided by it. I have learned from experience that discussing what happened to the American NDNs and to the First Nations people seems to bring the prejudices out of some people.

 

[cherokeehippie]

yeah, I noticed that, too. I've also noticed, that certain ones, especially older traditional Nonnative christian people don't take me seriously,,and think I'm immature, etc, because of how I am, into my native heritage, making baskets, etc. Have you noticed that, too?? being treated not very seriously.

 

[GigageiTsula]

Unfortunately, I have noticed that. And I often notice how many times I am treated like an outcast, not just from one side but from both. Before I was called a half-breed, I was told my husband and other non-natives were living guilt free on stolen lands. I encounter prejudices from natives and non-natives alike.

 

[RavenRift]

Praying for you all...

Praying for peace....

 

[4Everloved]

Just last week, I was called a 'half-breed' by someone I never suspected it from, and I was completely blindsided by it. I have learned from experience that discussing what happened to the American NDNs and to the First Nations people seems to bring the prejudices out of some people.

Anyone who would dare say such a thing is ignorant of the truth. The land was stolen from your ancestors as you know well, Red Fox.

I am sorry that some people are so cruel and unthinking. I am sorry also that cherokeehippie feels belittled and slighted. I don't understand really why people act like that.

As RavenRift so wisely said, Praying for peace.

 

[4Everloved]

I'm not surprised that the museum in Washington DC whitewashes the truth!! That's because the government is controlled by luciferian racists and it has always been that way!! Sorry to sound harsh but it's the literal truth!! THe real rulers are also behind the scenes, the president, congress, etc are just puppets on the luciferian strings. Want to understand what's behind that?? and manifest destiny??? then, you have to get and see the dvds:
"secret mysteries of America's Beginnings, Vol 1, The New Atlantis,
http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Myster...=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1196713160&sr=8-2
RIDDLES in STONE, the secret architecture of Washington DC., VOl 2
http://www.amazon.com/Riddles-Stone...Washington/dp/B000P2XNBG/ref=pd_bxgy_d_text_b

Don't mean to do advertizement, but these dvds gave me a lot to digest on--I know I sound 'out there'. And I don't agree with everything in the dvd's--those who still want to think America was originally a 'christian country"
I knew I smelled a fish when I first heard about the museum a few years ago. Knew it woudl be off kilter. I'm not sure if I want to visit it or Washington DC either. Lots of creepy stuff there!!!
I believe that the luciferians want to give christianity a bad name by having the true christians to be the fall guy for what happened to our people. Jesus said that there would be tares in with the wheat, well, what happened is that there is infiltration of the church thru out history of tares, luciferians--starting with Constantine, ca 300 AD who kicked Jewish christians out of the church, and institutionalized christianity--making it into a state religion--and causing true christians, to be marginalized on the fringes of society. I think it would scare a lot of people to realize that many 'well known' ministers--televanglists, aren't what they seem!!! I heard rumors of satanic rituals at a certain well known christian university---I won't say who, but it's in Oklahoma!
Getting back to the church and the abusive boarding schools. Noticed it was the 'church' in cahoots with the government to abuse our people in the boarding schools!! It is 'institionalized state religion. Same as in Constantine's time. This institutionalized state christianity(it comes in all denominations) is what I believe is part of mystery Babylon. No wonder Jesus told us "Come out of her, my people and share not in her sins"--in Revelations. That means, yes, true christians have taken part in these sins of injustice to our people. I have a lot I wish I could share, and no...I'm not making this stuff up. I wish I could say more, but it would take a lot to tell, especially if others here haven't studied certain things.

You make very good points, And I do know which university you are talking about, and it doesn't surprise me. The preachers and ministers that are real men of God are not out making money, ripping people off, lying, and putting on a show.

The Manifest Destiny was a great and long act of shame that we should never repeat in any way, shape or form. God's Holy name was used to degrade and kill. It was not God who did this, but evil men.

Americans that focus on our godly foundation are missing the point. We can repent and fellowship and start over, but it needs to be a new start, not the greed and violence of 200 years ago.

I believe God cries tears every day for the hurt that we do to each other as peoples upon this earth.

 

[mommavelvet]

Unfortunately, it was inevitable that the Europeans would come to the Americas. Look at how heavily populated they were, even back in the days of Pilgrims, etc., and the Pilgrims fled for the ability to worship as they wanted to. It would have happened sooner or later, as the population became greater and greater over there with less and less opportunities to support themselves and their families. What is so terrible is the way they did it, and what they did, of course, to achieve what they wanted. It is true that many of the people that came over from Europe to live in this "new world" were mostly criminals, at least in the beginning. Then also they unknowingly brought their diseases over here which ravaged the native American peoples.

Hope I haven't offended anyone here, and I'm sorry if I have, but certainly there are no excuses here, but only observations from what I have learned. This is a broken, and sinful world we live in.

 

[mommavelvet]

Praying for you all...

Praying for peace....

I certainly pray for peace, as well, and healing for all of our people.

 

[mommavelvet]

Here is another one of my favorite tribes of people. The Athabaskans of Alaska. This is another group of people who were mistreated, and nearly wiped out by white man's measles and smallpox diseases. I have met two people from this tribe.

Athabaskans of Alaska

 

[stranger]

A
riiddle then
to keep the fun
rolling

Why would a fool
wear a fools hat
if it thought itself
not a fool?