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Red Foxes Talking Circle

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Live4HimAndLoveOthers

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"The Pilgrims who sailed to this country aboard the Mayflower were originally members of the English Separatist Church (a Puritan sect). They had earlier fled their home in England and sailed to Holland (The Netherlands) to escape religious persecution. There, they enjoyed more religious tolerance, but they eventually became disenchanted with the Dutch way of life, thinking it ungodly. Seeking a better life, the Separatists negotiated with a London stock company to finance a pilgrimage to America. Most of those making the trip aboard the Mayflower were non-Separatists, but were hired to protect the company's interests. Only about one-third of the original colonists were Separatists.

The Pilgrims set ground at Plymouth Rock on December 11, 1620. Their first winter was devastating. At the beginning of the following fall, they had lost 46 of the original 102 who sailed on the Mayflower. But the harvest of 1621 was a bountiful one. And the remaining colonists decided to celebrate with a feast -- including 91 Indians who had helped the Pilgrims survive their first year. It is believed that the Pilgrims would not have made it through the year without the help of the natives. The feast was more of a traditional English harvest festival than a true "thanksgiving" observance. It lasted three days.

Governor William Bradford sent "four men fowling" after wild ducks and geese. It is not certain that wild turkey was part of their feast. However, it is certain that they had venison. The term "turkey" was used by the Pilgrims to mean any sort of wild fowl.

Another modern staple at almost every Thanksgiving table is pumpkin pie. But it is unlikely that the first feast included that treat. The supply of flour had been long diminished, so there was no bread or pastries of any kind. However, they did eat boiled pumpkin, and they produced a type of fried bread from their corn crop. There was also no milk, cider, potatoes, or butter. There was no domestic cattle for dairy products, and the newly-discovered potato was still considered by many Europeans to be poisonous. But the feast did include fish, berries, watercress, lobster, dried fruit, clams, venison, and plums.

This "thanksgiving" feast was not repeated the following year. But in 1623, during a severe drought, the pilgrims gathered in a prayer service, praying for rain. When a long, steady rain followed the very next day, Governor Bradford proclaimed another day of Thanksgiving, again inviting their Indian friends. It wasn't until June of 1676 that another Day of Thanksgiving was proclaimed.

On June 20, 1676, the governing council of Charlestown, Massachusetts, held a meeting to determine how best to express thanks for the good fortune that had seen their community securely established. By unanimous vote they instructed Edward Rawson, the clerk, to proclaim June 29 as a day of thanksgiving. It is notable that this thanksgiving celebration probably did not include the Indians, as the celebration was meant partly to be in recognition of the colonists' recent victory over the "heathen natives" (see the proclamation).

October of 1777 marked the first time that all 13 colonies joined in a thanksgiving celebration. It also commemorated the patriotic victory over the British at Saratoga. But it was a one-time affair.

George Washington proclaimed a National Day of Thanksgiving in 1789, although some were opposed to it. There was discord among the colonies, many feeling the hardships of a few Pilgrims did not warrant a national holiday. And later, President Thomas Jefferson scoffed at the idea of having a day of thanksgiving.

It was Sarah Josepha Hale, a magazine editor, whose efforts eventually led to what we recognize as Thanksgiving. Hale wrote many editorials championing her cause in her Boston Ladies' Magazine, and later, in Godey's Lady's Book. Finally, after a 40-year campaign of writing editorials and letters to governors and presidents, Hale's obsession became a reality when, in 1863, President Lincoln proclaimed the last Thursday in November as a national day of Thanksgiving.

Thanksgiving was proclaimed by every president after Lincoln. The date was changed a couple of times, most recently by Franklin Roosevelt, who set it up one week to the next-to-last Thursday in order to create a longer Christmas shopping season. Public uproar against this decision caused the president to move Thanksgiving back to its original date two years later. And in 1941, Thanksgiving was finally sanctioned by Congress as a legal holiday, as the fourth Thursday in November."

(from: http://wilstar.com/holidays/thankstr.htm )
 
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Live4HimAndLoveOthers

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I am curious to learn more about the name "Wakan Takan."

Many Christians use the name "Jehovah" for God, but that is probably a mispronunciation (though no one is completely sure of the exact pronunciation) of "Yahweh" (from the tetragrammaton 'YHWH.')

Of course, some people say that 'Allah' is merely the Arabic name for God. However, Muslims believe that it is an abomination that 'Allah' would have a son. Also, the characteristics of 'Allah' are quite different from the characteristics of Yahweh. Therefore, 'Allah' is a false god. Not just because the name is different; but because the very nature of 'Allah' is different. For example, 'Allah' is not a Trinity like Yahweh is. Also, 'Allah' is not a God of love in the same respect as Yahweh is.

Jim Elliot and Elisabeth Elliot have become famous names, as have the book "Through Gates of Splendor," the documentary "Beyond the Gates of Splendor," and the book and movie, "End of the Spear." I have personally met Steve Saint and Mincaye, and both of them were an incredible blessing to meet---they are both shining examples of Christ-likeness, and the best examples of Christian forgiveness in modern times (with the possible exception of the late Corrie ten Boom, of "The Hiding Place" fame). In any case, the Waodani ("Aucas") Christians call God "Waengongi," and they call Jesus "Itota." Even though they have different names for them, they worship the same God.

Note the following:

-----------------------

"Rachael Saint (Nate's brother), Elisabeth Elliot, and the two Saint children Nate and Kathy, went to live among the Waodani, picking up where their loved ones had left off. They were accompanied by a woman named Dayumae, who was a member of the Waodani who had left to live in the outside world as a child. Remarkably, the Waodani allowed them to come, probably for two key reasons. First, the women and children were hardly considered a threat. Second, they had seen something rather strange after killing the 5 men, something I won't tell you about, you can see it in the movie. Anyway, these remarkable women began to teach the Waodani. They explained how Waengongi (their name for God) had sent his Son, Itota, into the world. Itota had taught a new way. He commanded that we not kill one another. In fact, he allowed himself to be speared, and did not spear back. And he had left behind God's carvings (Bible) as a way of letting us know how to 'walk his trail.' Well, it is quite remarkable, but one by one, the Waodani converted. And within a short number of years, the most violent people on the face of the earth became the most peaceful. Even more incredible is the fact that the five men who had speared the men were among the converts. Mincaye, who speared Nate Saint, explained what happened to the tribe: 'we behaved badly, very badly. Until they showed us God's carvings. Then seeing His carvings and following his good trail, now we live happily and in peace.' And all of this happened because the families of the five martyred men did not respond in kind. They did not seek revenge. They responded with unlimited love."

from: http://www.phoenixvillebaptist.com/message.html

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* Waengongi – the creator God. The ancient Huaorani taught that Waengongi had created the world, but no longer spoke with the people. The missionaries used the name to refer to God the Father.
* Itota – Huao for "God." This name was used by the missionaries for Jesus, the Son of Waengongi.

from: http://www.mundoandino.com/Ecuador/List-of-Huaorani-people

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By the way, though I have not read it, the following looks like an interesting book to read:
http://www.amazon.com/Savage-My-Kinsman-Elisabeth-Elliot/dp/0830734864/ref=pd_sim_b_img_3
 
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Live4HimAndLoveOthers

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GigageiTsula said:
Thank you, my dear friend, for posting all of these resources and historical information. I appreciate your support here.

You're welcome. I am happy to do it. As I share this information, I learn more about it myself at the same time.
 
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stranger

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1. If you were capable of changing what happened to the American NDNs in the past - how would you change it?

2. If you were capable of bringing peace and reconciliation between the white man and the red man - how would you go about it?

3. How would you confront the poverty, drug and alcohol abuse, and suicides that plague American NDNs today living on a Rez?

There is but one way ... witness to the hearts of men , that truly longs for love between all ... men are capabl;e of living in denial of our own hearts of love which is then 'justified' by beliefs in the mind from this evil world...

The only way back is through moving the hearts of all people... much pain to be gone through yet in this process... it will take longer than the days of this earth, already numbered as men have already nearly destroyed the heart of nature... the great band is broken and cannot be repaired in this earth...

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
 
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GigageiTsula

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You're welcome. I am happy to do it. As I share this information, I learn more about it myself at the same time.
I hope you will continue to share. I will suggest to you as a friend suggested to me, be aware of a copyright. Walk in peace, my friend.
 
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GigageiTsula

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Good morning, my relations. I pray each of you has a blessed and peaceful day, and you are well rested for the coming week.

blessings16.jpg

 
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Live4HimAndLoveOthers

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GigageiTsula said:
I hope you will continue to share. I will suggest to you as a friend suggested to me, be aware of a copyright.

(Sigh) This is so frustrating to me. Whenever I read or run across something good, I always want to share it with others. And I love doing Internet research. And yet books usually say "No part of this publication may be reproduced without written permission." I know you're right, but I guess that means I'm just going to have to keep what I read to myself, or else attempt to say it in my own words, which is usually not nearly as good. Oh, well, the law is the law.
 
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moonkitty

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Would like one small point cleared up, and please, do not think that I am attacking you at all. In your OP the picture says “To all who comes in peace, welcome” but you state “This club is open to all believers in Christ”
If this is only for peaceful believers I will respectfully bow out. I believe I am not one to stir up trouble, but I am not a believer.
 
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DarkNLovely

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American Indian Thanksgiving Protest: A Day of Mourning
Cassandra Brabon

When we were young, we learned that Thanksgiving Day was a time to celebrate family and friends coming together. It was a time to learn about and celebrate when the Pilgrims came to Plymouth Rock and how the American Indians helped them. It was a time when everyone feasted on turkey, corn-on-the-cob, cranberry sauce and pumpkin pie. Has everything we have known about Thanksgiving been a lie? If you do some digging, you will find that the food we feast on today with our families wasn’t even on the menu for the Pilgrims’ and American Indians’ first feast. The most surprising thing that I found, however, was that some American Indians are objecting to Thanksgiving Day – the very day many Americans celebrate in their honor. American Indian protests against Thanksgiving began in Massachusetts in the 1970s. Every Thanksgiving Day, protestors gather at the top of Cole’s Hill, which overlooks Plymouth Rock. This is in honor of Wamsutta James, who, in 1970, was the first person to demonstrate Cole’s Hill and protest of the injustices that the American Indians had endured. Such injustices include the capturing and selling of American Indians as slaves; the robbing of their ancestor’s graves; the theft of their winter food provisions; the taking of their lands and culture; and depriving them of their freedom. Since the day James’ speech was given, Thanksgiving Day for American Indians has become the “National Day of Mourning.” . . . .

To read the rest of this article, please go to the following site: Michigan Tech Lode.

Darn! I can' read the rest of the article! I never heard of this protest. May I ask if anybody has any thoguhts on the matter. I heard once that some NA didn't celebrate but I don't really know why. I know that my family does not Celebrate Columbus Day and never have in their honor. But this I have never heard about.
 
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IXOYE5

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Would like one small point cleared up, and please, do not think that I am attacking you at all. In your OP the picture says “To all who comes in peace, welcome” but you state “This club is open to all believers in Christ”
If this is only for peaceful believers I will respectfully bow out. I believe I am not one to stir up trouble, but I am not a believer.


Welcome moonkitty,

If it is peace you are looking for He the Most High and His Spirit has led you here. :hug:

For true peace is in the heart of those who seek the Truth! :groupray:

My brother was an atheist and now He and His Wife have been called and serve and Worship the Creator of all things through His Son Jesus Christ!
 
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moonkitty

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(Sigh) This is so frustrating to me. Whenever I read or run across something good, I always want to share it with others. And I love doing Internet research. And yet books usually say "No part of this publication may be reproduced without written permission." I know you're right, but I guess that means I'm just going to have to keep what I read to myself, or else attempt to say it in my own words, which is usually not nearly as good. Oh, well, the law is the law.

You would have to look into your state’s copyright laws, but usually if you copy less than 10% of a work and do not take credit for it as your own, then you are ok and not breaking any laws. But like I said double check with the fair usage/copy right laws in your state.
 
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FaithfulWife

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I am curious to learn more about the name "Wakan Takan."

Many Christians use the name "Jehovah" for God, but that is probably a mispronunciation (though no one is completely sure of the exact pronunciation) of "Yahweh" (from the tetragrammaton 'YHWH.')

Of course, some people say that 'Allah' is merely the Arabic name for God. ...

...In any case, the Waodani ("Aucas") Christians call God "Waengongi," and they call Jesus "Itota." Even though they have different names for them, they worship the same God.

IXOYE5--

I am by no means an expert on the study of the names of God, but I thought I'd share with you what I do know about the name Wakan Takan. It is a Sioux term for "Supreme Being." In some traditions it is translated "Great Spirit" or "Grandfather" or "Celestial Father" or even sometimes "The Great Mystery." The word "wakan" means "sacred" in the sense of something being high, infinite and powerful--literally "in the high." The Sun, the Moon, the Wind and the Thunder all possess "wakan" but Wakan Takan is the ONE GREAT SPIRIT.

I think the closest Christian term I can think of is Jehovah/YHWH because as I understand it (very simply) the Hebrew word is really too holy to pronounce and instead they say the word "Shem" which means "holy." YHWH is "the ONE GOD" and I think generally refers to what a Christian person would translate into "God the Father." As I said--this is in the simplest form! And in the sense that "God the Father" is the creator--you can see the connection to Wakan Takan...but since Wakan Takan is also the Spirit that lives and moves and works in every thing on the planet--living person, animal, plant, or rock--it's also in one way very similar to the Holy Spirit. The tradition is that the purer the mind, the closer one walks with Wakan Takan.

Personally, I think the difficulty or distinction comes in when discussing Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I don't know of any similar "God name" in the NDN tradition. I believe the names Jehovah, YHWH, Wakan Takan, Waengongi all may be different names for the same God--but the idea of a Son of God coming to take the punishment for man's sin is a unique idea and therefore that concept has to be communicated somehow! The name itself is just a container to communicate the idea of "God" so we could really use any word that gets that idea across (even Bob! :p) but the concept of Christ dying in our place--as a substitution for what we deserved--and the concept of receiving His gift and trusting in Him for our salvation is the REAL discussion.

Those are my thoughts!
 
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FaithfulWife

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Would like one small point cleared up, and please, do not think that I am attacking you at all. In your OP the picture says “To all who comes in peace, welcome” but you state “This club is open to all believers in Christ”
If this is only for peaceful believers I will respectfully bow out. I believe I am not one to stir up trouble, but I am not a believer.
Moonkitty~

I can not speak for Red Fox, as this is her club, but I know that I for one welcome you with open arms and look forward to discussing with you freely and openly. I think the emphasis here is more on the peaceful discussion of ideas and questions, because let's face it--we are all in different places in our walk with God/Wakan Takan.
 
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Live4HimAndLoveOthers

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moonkitty said:
You would have to look into your state’s copyright laws, but usually if you copy less than 10% of a work and do not take credit for it as your own, then you are ok and not breaking any laws. But like I said double check with the fair usage/copy right laws in your state.

Thank you, moonkitty. I appreciate that information.
 
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Live4HimAndLoveOthers

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FaithfulWife said:
I am curious to learn more about the name "Wakan Takan."

Many Christians use the name "Jehovah" for God, but that is probably a mispronunciation (though no one is completely sure of the exact pronunciation) of "Yahweh" (from the tetragrammaton 'YHWH.')

Of course, some people say that 'Allah' is merely the Arabic name for God. ...

...In any case, the Waodani ("Aucas") Christians call God "Waengongi," and they call Jesus "Itota." Even though they have different names for them, they worship the same God.
IXOYE5--

I am by no means an expert on the study of the names of God, but I thought I'd share with you what I do know about the name Wakan Takan. It is a Sioux term for "Supreme Being." In some traditions it is translated "Great Spirit" or "Grandfather" or "Celestial Father" or even sometimes "The Great Mystery." The word "wakan" means "sacred" in the sense of something being high, infinite and powerful--literally "in the high." The Sun, the Moon, the Wind and the Thunder all possess "wakan" but Wakan Takan is the ONE GREAT SPIRIT.

I think the closest Christian term I can think of is Jehovah/YHWH because as I understand it (very simply) the Hebrew word is really too holy to pronounce and instead they say the word "Shem" which means "holy." YHWH is "the ONE GOD" and I think generally refers to what a Christian person would translate into "God the Father." As I said--this is in the simplest form! And in the sense that "God the Father" is the creator--you can see the connection to Wakan Takan...but since Wakan Takan is also the Spirit that lives and moves and works in every thing on the planet--living person, animal, plant, or rock--it's also in one way very similar to the Holy Spirit. The tradition is that the purer the mind, the closer one walks with Wakan Takan.

Personally, I think the difficulty or distinction comes in when discussing Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I don't know of any similar "God name" in the NDN tradition. I believe the names Jehovah, YHWH, Wakan Takan, Waengongi all may be different names for the same God--but the idea of a Son of God coming to take the punishment for man's sin is a unique idea and therefore that concept has to be communicated somehow! The name itself is just a container to communicate the idea of "God" so we could really use any word that gets that idea across (even Bob! :p) but the concept of Christ dying in our place--as a substitution for what we deserved--and the concept of receiving His gift and trusting in Him for our salvation is the REAL discussion.

Those are my thoughts!

Actually, it was me who asked that question.
But thank you for answering that.

The Christian does not believe that God is in the animals and plants and rocks, however. Christians believe, of course, that God created those things, but not that God lives or dwells in them. Christians do believe that God lives/dwells within born-again believers, however, as living, holy temples. God is omnipresent (everywhere), but that is not the same as living in the rocks and trees. The belief that everything that exists is a part of god is called Pantheism. Omnipresence is not the same as Pantheism. For one thing, God is bigger than His creation. And God exists separately from His creation.
 
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FaithfulWife

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Love4HimandLoveOthers,

First, sorry about thinking you were IXOYE5--I must have had a brain misfire there...or maybe it was the suit of armour that threw me off! :p ^_^

Anyway, thank you for pointing out that there is a difference between Pantheism and Omnipresence. Of course you are correct--I was just looking for the "similarities of concept" and "similarities of names." On a personal note, that one was a stretch for me. But just so we are all clear with each other, I personally do myself believe God is the Creator and indwells believers via the Holy Spirit--and I do not believe that He lives within a rock or a plant. So ;) I hear ya and I agree.
 
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