Recurring Problem

[Dave-W]

Here is Dr. Harley's research, which (not surprisingly) showed that sex showed up in 100's of men's top 5 emotional needs and not in their wives top 5:

My first goal when counseling a couple is to help them identify their most important emotional needs. Once those needs are identified, I help them learn to meet those needs for each other. I want them to make the largest deposits possible into each other's Love Banks. If all goes well, they begin making those large deposits and eventually they are in love with each other.

Right. However, he is dealing with primarily a US clientele which follows the western pattern. If he were to conduct the same surveys in rural China or the tribes in the Amazon or Congo rain forests, he may have a vastly different list.

 

[unfinishedclay]

Well, her mom would discipline her harshly for even talking to boys. She called her a harlot if she wore anything too revealing. And my wife was one of the most conservative girls in HS. In fact she had a reputation as a goody two shoes. So this does cast a new light on the situation

Hi Jeff. I want to caution you here that, even though your wife's past might seem like a light bulb, it may not necessarily be true. My dad was very hard on me and extremely critical when I was growing up - my parents having had me as teens. And being the young dad as he was trying to support my mom along with us kids when I was in high school, he just didn't know how to communicate then as he can now as a man of faith and much higher integrity. He called me a "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" for being on the phone with a boyfriend after midnight one summer as I stayed up all night baking cookies for a bake sale. I didn't date around. I didn't sleep around. And though I wasn't conservative, I was not what he thought I was.

My husband and I had the same problem from his perspective. He thought I hated sex. He's now learning that it's intimacy that I love. Some women love romance but reject the mechanics of sex, especially if it's sought with any hint of frustration. It makes some of us feel like objects. Well, many of us.

That doesn't mean there is no fault in a woman denying her husband. I had my fault in my issue and your wife has hers as well. But with the options that are available to you within the institution of marriage (the sin of adultery vs working it out), you can have victory in this area by pursuing her romantically understanding that it may take time invested on your part and also by praying. Demonic forces really do present these challenges to couples with a twisted, deceptive perspective, as in the battle of my own marriage.

I'm sorry this has been happening to y'all.

 

[Endeavourer]

you can have victory in this area by pursuing her romantically understanding that it may take time invested on your part and also by praying. Demonic forces really do present these challenges to couples with a twisted, deceptive perspective, as in the battle of my own marriage.

I'm sorry this has been happening to y'all.

Two Amens!!

 

[OK Jeff]

Two Amens!!

Thank you two for your information and support. No doubt I have work to do. It's nearly never entirely one person's fault.

 

[mkgal1]

leaves me feeling rejected, neglected, lonely, and finally tempted.

I was going to comment on the above.....but then got to this:

If there was a way to disallow women from commenting here, I would do so. Because they clearly do not get it

You can post in the Married men's personal section (I don't recall the exact name).....if you wish to only have men comment.

 

[mkgal1]

As a woman, I can tell you that the frequency of my desire for sex in my marriage has nothing to do with history or culture and has everything to do with how connected I feel with my husband on that day.

I can categorically tell you that it is the same for nearly 99% of the women out there.

Basing advice to a marriage that is hurting on this information is harmful at best.

Exactly.

It seems to me that if a man is trying to gain insight to an issue like this.....seeking advice from women may be the best option (not that all women are the same and all men are the same......but dehumanizing us--by generalizing-- without us present doesn't do much to heal a marriage, IMO).

 

[mkgal1]

...leaves me feeling rejected, neglected, lonely, and finally tempted.

I will comment on this after all. I really hope you don't perceive this to be an attitude of "get over it" or "meh....who cares about his suffering".....because that's not true. I just have a different goal in mind, perhaps, than you do.....but the same (most likely) result in mind.

This seems to be the main problem.....wouldn't you agree (that you end up feeling rejected, neglected, lonely)? To me.....it seems you're assuming that sex will solve that problem (because it does momentarily)....but like the article I shared earlier, that's "false".....it's an illusion unless there's the emotional/spiritual connection to back it all up. Sex *should* be a sort of "celebration" (for lack of a better word) of your bond.....not the bond itself.

 

[mkgal1]

Thank you two for your information and support. No doubt I have work to do. It's nearly never entirely one person's fault.

I wonder if it'd be better if you re-framed all this. Instead of using words like "work" and "fault"......maybe consider it more as "finally getting to know each other better in order to improve our marriage"? It *should* be a positive thing.....not grueling "work". Do you know what I mean?

 

[Dave-W]

The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage? by Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.

If I remember right, what so upset me with Harley when I read "His needs Her needs" was all the examples he gave of people divorcing over the least little provocation. I wanted to throttle each one of them.

We were married about 30 years at that point and there were some years we had no sex whatsoever. Some years maybe 2 or 3 times. But I do not see that a reason to divorce.

Are people really that petty; and why is he using pettiness as examples?

 

[Dave-W]

Well, her mom would discipline her harshly for even talking to boys. She called her a harlot if she wore anything too revealing. And my wife was one of the most conservative girls in HS. In fact she had a reputation as a goody two shoes. So this does cast a new light on the situation

Jeff - have you read any of the stuff on the failures of the "Purity Movement;" or its predecessor "Gothardism?"

 

[Endeavourer]

If I remember right, what so upset me with Harley when I read "His needs Her needs" was all the examples he gave of people divorcing over the least little provocation. I wanted to throttle each one of them.

We were married about 30 years at that point and there were some years we had no sex whatsoever. Some years maybe 2 or 3 times. But I do not see that a reason to divorce.

Are people really that petty; and why is he using pettiness as examples?

His ministry is to save marriages and is not limited to Christian couples. The examples he publishes represent issues that he receives the largest volume of correspondence on. They may seem petty to you because as a Christian this issue would not rise to that level, but that is really the type of issues he needs to help people through.

And, while Christians should hopefully not be so hasty to reach for divorce as a solution, we do still have the same questions and struggles in our marriage, so his advice on the matter is very helpful.

You will notice his advice is never for frivolous divorces, even in response to people wanting them. He uses a lot of research and experience to guide them into resolutions that will save their marriage.

Edited to add: He has so many examples because of his exhaustive study of marital behaviors from a scientific perspective. He studied to see what DOES actually work that can be replicated, not how he thought it SHOULD work. He does not at all endorse, encourage, or advise frivolous divorces.

 

[mkgal1]

Now as for intimacy. I'm getting tired of people misreading what I've said. More than once I've said straight out that sex is not intimacy. Yet some come in and continue to jump my case about that. But it damn well is a way men feel intimacy

I would like to address this. Right above this, you mentioned reading the article....thinking about it.....and agreeing that your wife and you introduced sex too early into the relationship (that you didn't really know each other well).....but then went on to say this. That article was about the false sense of intimacy a couple feels when using sex as a bond (and a way to deal with conflict). I don't believe we are misreading what you're saying. I'm sorry you feel as if some are "jumping your case about it".....it's just that (I will speak only for myself) when you write "men feel intimacy this way"....I'm trying to explain that it's not a male/female thing to "feel intimacy" that way (IOW...men feel intimacy one way....and women another). Genuine intimacy is experienced by BOTH men and women alike. A bond is between TWO people.....and the point of intimacy is where both are joined (if it's a physical bond...based on being there for each other in the practical things....and both agree that's what the relationship is....that's the level of intimacy). I honestly think that video I posted a while back is the best description of levels of intimacy. RPD also gave a wonderful definition. The key words that RPD used were "vulnerable" and "without fear". I think it's Matthew Kelly (I can't recall) that has described intimacy as meaning "into me you see". It's about that safe feeling of acceptance and belonging (which seems as if you're desiring?). If you have outbursts of anger.....that's going to keep your wife from feeling free to express herself (which builds up walls between you two).

I would like to be of help....but if you'd rather not hear from me, I can back away.

 

[Dave-W]

Edited to add: He has so many examples because of his exhaustive study of marital behaviors from a scientific perspective. He studied to see what DOES actually work that can be replicated, not how he thought it SHOULD work. He does not at all endorse, encourage, or advise frivolous divorces.

OK. But there was nothing in that book to help my situation. It was almost like it was screaming at me to get divorced, something I would not do ever.

 

[unfinishedclay]

Sex *should* be a sort of "celebration" (for lack of a better word) of your bond.....not the bond itself.

This is what I've always tried to convey to my husband ever since sex started becoming a duty or an effort to keep him from complaining. (And even though our road of reconciliation has been tough and painfully slow, he seems to finally show signs of getting what you said here.) Once he stopped abandoning me for late hours with his relatives and started making me a priority while also spending quality time instead of obligation time with me, I found it easier to let down my guard. I relaxed. I felt the security many wives need to feel when we're genuinely wanted. When we feel unwanted or something to settle for in order to get sex, many of us become shy underneath the surface of our covering.

Jeff, finally on the other side of our own crisis that resulted in what could have destroyed our marriage, I can say that statements like sex supposedly being a somewhat celebration of our bond instead of the bond itself are such good news for both husband and wife. This is a revelation that really serves as a light at the end of the tunnel for many couples in this area of conflict over the common marital sex crisis. I agree that "work" shouldn't be such an issue when creating romance in marriage. (Personally, I suggest working to find a good, gentle, reliable babysitter if your kids are young. Can't remember seeing in above posts how old they are.) But when kids of any age under 18/21 are involved and when life squeezes time + finances from you as a couple (especially through yall's past health challenges), work may be involved. But it doesn't have to be so hard to enjoy each other. Enjoy each other as you abide in God's Word.

The enemy will still try to manipulate each of you to focus on the other as an obstacle against the whole marriage - anything to steer your focus off of Satan being the main obstacle to defeat. 1 Corinthians 7 says we are not to deny each other lest we give place to him. But denying one another sex is only a part of denying each other. Also, y'all consider that quality time and those behaviors that lead to a beautiful grand finale of sex can help remedy an ongoing problem. I wish my husband and I could have the pre-affair time back. He certainly expresses that all the time.

Jeff, you and your wife have the gift of time right now. While the enemy instigates division between the two of you, utilize every Biblical resource y'all have together - even if the effort has to start with you for as long as you have to. Spend devotion time with God on it. Pray. And y'all watch Fireproof. Figure things out together and get encouraged together.

 

[Endeavourer]

OK. But there was nothing in that book to help my situation. It was almost like it was screaming at me to get divorced, something I would not do ever.

If you are curious about what he would say about your situation, what was your situation?

I've become a student of his studies because when nothing else seemed to work for me, his experience nailed down exactly what my solution was and nothing worked until I finally took his solution - which then worked. In retrospect, it was the only solution.

His Needs Her Needs is only half of the formula, and was the book he wrote first. It was followed some years later by LoveBusters as his studies and experience grew to realize that needs filling would not build a balance without plugging the withdrawals.

He recounts things that did cause divorces for us to learn from, but his advice is not to get divorced except under specific, unsolvable situations.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

And sometimes what THEY want is not unreasonable. For a husband to want more sex from his wife is not an unreasonable request. What IS unreasonable is the seemingly unending supply of women who think "get over it" is reasonable advice. I am a 40 year old man, sex is important to me. And I am not getting nearly enough. Three weeks at a time without it leaves me feeling rejected, neglected, lonely, and finally tempted. I'm tired of it. If there was a way to disallow women from commenting here, I would do so. Because they clearly do not get it, do not care about a man's suffering, and are certainly not interested in hearing where perhaps she may need to improve.
Red rocket rider, perhaps your deliberately obtuse outlook on my situation has brought about guilty feeling from the way you've neglected your poor husband. If your attitude toward him has always been this way, I'll guarantee he's felt my way at some time.

What attitude? I have REAL intimacy in my marriage...your quip of "two hearts beating as one" has to start LONG before you get naked. For over 20 years we've been 2 halves of a whole. The phrase "get out of my head" is heard often here at my house. Know why? Because we know each other SO WELL that we can think the same things without ever saying a word. That, my friend, is intimacy. Sex is not intimacy. Sex is sex. Intimacy encompasses every day happenings, putting things on a grocery list that you know he likes, going to the grocery store and he picks up things you were thinking about getting. Its taking his car for an oil change and fill up just because I know he's tired and doesn't feel like doing it. He doesn't tell me to do it, I just do it. It's the thousands of little things every day, day after day that make intimacy. It's him holding me as I cried for a friend who's son took his own life yesterday.

Neither one of us are "neglected". Why? Because sex has never been the end all and be all of our marriage. We were friends for years before that little spark happened. We knew each other for years before we started a relationship. We dated for almost a year before sex ever happened. Once it did, man, it was wonderful...BUT...neither one of us ever thought that was all of our relationship. It just isn't. It can't be. If sex is the end all and be all, what do you do for the other 23 and a half hours a day? Now we're both in our 50's and various injuries have taken their toll on both of us. BUT...since sex was never the end all and be all of US, it's not a big deal if it ain't happening.

My husband is pretty much the other half of me. Two halves that make a whole. Two bodies, one mind. We're not connected by our genitals, we're connected on a deeper level, our minds and hearts. Monday I'm having a minor surgery. He'll be in the waiting room pacing. When he had his major surgery, he begged the surgeon to give ME something to calm ME down since he said he was going to be sleeping through it and he knew how wound up I was.

Until you reach that level with your wife...you will not have true intimacy.

 

[OK Jeff]

Oh MKGal, I must confess, I didn't read the article in it's entirety. I scanned it well enough to know I needed to read it thoroughly. I'll do so now.

 

[OK Jeff]

We have some great Christ based conversations, you know how He relates to us in everyday life. Can go on and on about it. Probably need more non farm, non kids topics though lol.

 

[Paidiske]

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[98cwitr]

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