Recurring Problem

[Dave-W]

I know of a marriage where the husband had an affair and was also prone to anger outbursts every 3 weeks or so.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Endeavourer]

Addressing this part of your response:

If his wife refuses to talk about it and actually calls him a pervert and mocks his suggestion to try to alter his own behavior to help the situation, then she is not building joint agreement. She is being harsh toward him, and not considering his situation.

According to the article anything that both do not have enthusiastic agreement on should be stopped. I would certainly say he would not enthusiastically agree to be called a pervert for wanting sex with his wife.

The reality is that joint agreement only works when people will talk . She won't talk about this. So they can hardly have enthusiastic agreement on any part of it.

Giving this a hearty Amen!

She, too, needs to not do anything that he is not enthusiastic about, including heaping abuse on him or ridiculing him.

But she is not here, only Jeff is.

The intricate dance of meeting each other's needs and avoiding hurting the other person in such a way that the other stays in love with you and wants to enthusiastically meet your needs and not hurt you because they care intimately and deeply about you takes a lot of wisdom. Most marriages - perhaps 80% of them - never find that wisdom.

Jeff has the advantage that he is the man, and can pursue this tone in his marriage, likely very effectively. It seems our Creator designed, in general, women to respond to a pursuit and men to pursue. Generally speaking, that is.

 

[ExodusMe]

@Endeavourer it is a pretty good article. I am sympathetic to your statements. The article itself is written to a woman who is depriving her husband of sex. She obviously has some idea that this is wrong and has at least a hint of wanting to correct it. It doesn't seem like the OP's wife is there yet.

I still consider you and the article wrong. Aversion is not a biblical ground to deny your spouse sexual intercourse. This is something that can and should be worked out between them. Invoking a pastor or some other counselor to help them discuss the problem is the best play. She is not honoring her marriage covenant and maybe he isn't either. They need a counselor.

 

[Endeavourer]

@Endeavourer
Aversion is not a biblical ground to deny your spouse sexual intercourse. This is something that can and should be worked out between them. Invoking a pastor or some other counselor to help them discuss the problem is the best play. She is not honoring her marriage covenant and maybe he isn't either. They need a counselor.

If marriage is a type or parallel of our relationship with Christ, how do you see your position of coercing a woman into unwanted sex paralleled in our relationship with Christ?

A follow up to that: is a husband's abuse (anger outbursts, or such) of a wife grounds for the wife not wanting to participate in sex?

 

[ExodusMe]

If marriage is a type or parallel of our relationship with Christ, how do you see your position of coercing a woman into unwanted sex paralleled in our relationship with Christ?

A follow up to that: is a husband's abuse (anger outbursts, or such) of a wife grounds for the wife not wanting to participate in sex?

yeah I agree that this is complicated. Either the wife is completely selfish or the OP isn't telling the whole story and maybe he is at fault also. I don't think we can coax the errors of the OP out of him. I think getting a counselor is the best play. It seems like they don't talk and they need a third party to help them hash things out. Thanks for the discussion and the article you have listed. I hope your advice is heeded well.

 

[tall73]

A follow up to that: is a husband's abuse (anger outbursts, or such) of a wife grounds for the wife not wanting to participate in sex?

Would a wife cutting off her husband from sex be grounds for him to cut off other forms of intimacy such as talking, non-sexual touch, expressions of admiration, etc.?

No to all of the above. The fact that we sometimes react with any of the above when someone does something that turns us off does not means it is legitimate grounds to do so.

It is true that we have Jeff here, and not her. And he can try to set a correct tone in every part of the marriage. However, ultimately if she is doing this as a result of something he did to turn her off she should express that and deal with it.

If she refuses to talk about whatever the issue is (and to her it doesn't seem to be an issue), then there is little to do to correct it.

How can he set the tone and pursue if she won't actually express what the issue is?

And in the article you posted the issue was complete aversion due to negative experiences. That is not his situation. And she doesn't report the experience being negative. The author suggested that if she enjoyed sex she might want to start having it more. But that doesn't follow from his initial explanation. Some have one need more prominent and some have another. It is not as big of a need for her, so there is little reason to think she is suddenly going to start wanting it more. The example of someone who doesn't like to watch football was used. The person if they are in a relationship of intimacy might watch football for the other person, but is somewhat unlikely to suddenly desire it more.

In the case in the article the insistence of the husband was part of the problem. But Jeff has stated that he as gone to the point of not asking her at all. Yet this has not increased her desire either.

It doesn't seem to be a case of aversion or him necessarily turning her off. She likes sex. She only likes it about a week out of each month, which likely corresponds to her hormone cycle.

So trying to figure out every thing that Jeff may be doing wrong, when she wont even talk about the issue, and doesn't report finding sex a problem, is just a way to drag Jeff over the coals trying to find every possible way he has offended her--rather than her just saying if that is the case at all.

It boils down to this--you have to talk to come to any mutual agreement on anything. As painful as that has been he is going to have to talk to her about this again.

 

[tall73]

I'm considering herbs or something than can reduce my libido. Any mention of this to her in the past has drawn criticism or boarderline ridicule.

Another aspect of this, you do not need your wife's permission to make decisions about whether you take a supplement. I understand talking it over with her. However, if you are constantly struggling with these thoughts and it is causing temptation then you still have the option of taking it anyway and just informing her. Ultimately temptation to sin is a spiritual issue. But there is a physical component to arousal.

Having said that I am not sure chasteberry which you mentioned at one point, has a clinical history of working, but it does have some lengthy tradition and some report some help (others do not).

 

[Endeavourer]

It is true that we have Jeff here, and not her. And he can try to set a correct tone in every part of the marriage. However, ultimately if she is doing this as a result of something he did to turn her off she should express that and deal with it.

If she refuses to talk about whatever the issue is (and to her it doesn't seem to be an issue), then there is little to do to correct it.

How can he set the tone and pursue if she won't actually express what the issue is?

Agree 100%. Sex is a tough issue because quickly one party or the other can feel coerced or rejected. However, the complaints need to be pursued until they are resolved. My advise to Jeff is that sometimes the issue really isn't sex, it's that the wife is reacting to something else.

He discussed giving way to anger sometimes. It can take 100 acts of care and kindness to make up for one angry outburst. For example, the wife ridiculed Jeff. How many acts of kindness from her will it take for him to forget her ridicule? A lot.

Similarly, whatever he is saying to her every 3 weeks (his cycle of anger) needs to stop. That may make an enormous difference in his situation. Most women I know would be averse to having sex with someone who was recently cruel to them. Every woman's recollection has its own definition of recent.

And in the article you posted the issue was complete aversion due to negative experiences. That is not his situation.

Correct. The article was responding to ExodusMe's suggestion of demanding a wife's sexual participation at the business end of a Bible. It was not responding to Jeff.

It boils down to this--you have to talk to come to any mutual agreement on anything. As painful as that has been he is going to have to talk to her about this again.

I would suggest forgoing any angry outbursts and following the advice in the "question of the ages" article for at least three months. The article talked about taking your wife out on 3 hour dates where your purpose was to provide good conversation, exchange affectionate gestures and having recreational fun together.

Dr. Harley's observations in the couples he works with is that those couples that stay infatuated with each other and have all of the sex they can desire is that they spend about 15 hours per week providing dating-like undivided attention. His observation was that was at least the investment of effort it took to fall in love and it seems to be the gold standard of effort to stay in love as well.

If after three months of NO anger outbursts or sarcasm from Jeff, and three months of dating, she is still not responding to his need, then I'd turn to a resource that is highly skilled in helping with this type of complaint for assistance so the complaint isn't brought up in a way that causes even more problems, such as has been the case in the past.

I can suggest a resource for him at that time. (I'm not affiliated with or profit in any way from the resource.)

 

[OK Jeff]

The anger vs the lack of interest is a chicken or the egg scenario. I don't typically have the trouble until I've been put off, or outright ignored for a good length of time. But it's still wrong just the same. Which comes first is not the point though. I can only work on myself. It's not nearly the problem for me it used to be. But it's still there occasionally. So that's for me to deal with. I just get skeptical about being able to help the situation.....

 

[Endeavourer]

Jeff, you are getting A! LOT! of sex for a man who doesn't initiate. I'm actually surprised you're getting as much as you are.

You have far more to work with than most men in your situation.

 

[Endeavourer]

Your best bet is to put the past behind you. Firmly.

You contributed to your problems and possibly started a bit of an aversion in her when in your earlier years you were more focused on the act than on giving her an experience where she felt loved and cherished.

She probably started feeling a bit yucky about sex (most women would under those circumstances) and started deferring when you initiated because she was feeling a bit used (most women do so as well).

You have imagined a very deep rejection from her in the strongest of ways that she most likely never felt toward you. You have put a lot of words to her feelings that she never actually said. She probably just felt a little bit used. She was probably looking for an emotional connection as well.

By now the spiraling (made up) feelings you have regarding how deeply she has rejected you have prevented you from initiating for many years. Note: she never expressed a rejection in those words.

She has expressed some harsh words, but she has not expressed the loathing for connecting with you that you have assumed.

You need to pivot to a whole new day. Likely your actions contributed more than you realized.

Your fresh start is to study what she needs in order to warm up and focus your energy in that direction, so that you both can enjoy the same desires and a very special emotional connection as only a husband and wife can share during the event of physically expressing your love for each other.

 

[Endeavourer]

Generally, the more you meet someone of the opposite sex's emotional needs, the more they like you. Eventually when you have made enough deposits to their emotional needs account they start falling in love with you. It is a natural reaction that we are all wired for. (This is why opposite sex friendships are so dangerous in marriages.).

However, you can make withdrawals from that account as well, with anger outbursts, selfish demands, etc. etc. Often withdrawals are in much larger currency than deposits, so, for example, an anger outburst withdraws far more than a warm hug deposits.

A Christian psychologist has studied 10,000's of couples and reduced his observations to a simple pattern found in blissfully happy marriages by those who followed it (about 20%) and at a minimum, unhappy marriages, but often also affairs and divorces for those who didn't. Once he realized what the pattern was, he began very successfully coaching couples to follow it.

He has never seen a failure in a marriage where both spouses follow the pattern of making deposits and avoiding withdrawals as long as they protected their marriages from opposite sex friendships.

He gives detailed information about his observations and a plan on how he has seen this be implemented in the successful marriages that you can apply to your marriage, for free on the internet.

Q&A Columns

He also provides one on one support for free during a daily radio show where he often spends a full half hour on each couple. This radio show is posted every day, also for free (and without commercials), on their web site and provides a lot of insight on practical application since putting it to practice can be more difficult than it sounds, so I'd encourage you to listen to his show every day.

When a woman is deeply in love with her husband, she tends to want sex nearly as much as he does, when sex is an event that expresses a deeply felt, emotional loving bond in a special and precious friendship as only possible between husband and wife.

 

[mkgal1]

I read this book years ago:

It seems to me that if you and your wife can't even discuss your sexual relationship, then that's where there's a need to build a "safe environment"...FIRST.

I completely agree with Endeavor that controlling anger is probably the best thing to focus on in order to build security, trust, healing and love.

 

[Endeavourer]

I would suggest forgoing any angry outbursts and following the advice in the "question of the ages" article for at least three months. The article talked about taking your wife out on 3 hour dates where your purpose was to provide good conversation, exchange affectionate gestures and having recreational fun together.

The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage? by Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Dr. Harley's observations in the couples he works with is that those couples that stay infatuated with each other and have all of the sex they can desire is that they spend about 15 hours per week providing dating-like undivided attention. His observation was that was at least the investment of effort it took to fall in love and it seems to be the gold standard of effort to stay in love as well.

If after three months of NO anger outbursts or sarcasm from Jeff, and three months of dating, she is still not responding to his need, then I'd turn to a resource that is highly skilled in helping with this type of complaint for assistance so the complaint isn't brought up in a way that causes even more problems, such as has been the case in the past.

How is this coming along, Jeff? How have things been these last several weeks?

Have you been achieving the undivided attention time each week in date-sized chunks of time? Have you been able to entirely refrain from anger outbursts towards your wife?

I've been rooting for you!

 

[OK Jeff]

Thanks for checking up on me. It's nice to know some really care.
We've had a couple "mini dates" and one full day outing in the middle of a week (self employed,we can do that). No outbursts on my part.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

There is more to intimacy than sex. Due to certain physical issues, currently on my part (I got hurt in a car accident), sex is not really something I'm EVER in the mood for...I'm on painkillers and muscle relaxers and well...things don't work so well with those meds in my system. HOWEVER...there's so much more to intimacy than just "wham, bam, thank you ma'am" that if you don't have that, sex isn't going to fix anything. If you have a truly intimate relationship, the lack of sex isn't a big deal. Over the last 8 years or so, one or the other of us has had certain physical issues, recovery from surgery, broken bones and now the car accident...so, 2-4 times a month would be excellent for us.

It seems you're hung up on the physical intercourse part of intimacy. It ain't the end all or be all of any relationship...and if it is, then YOU have an issue. I think you need to look HARD at yourself. I heard the best definition of unconditional love the other day...it's wanting the very best for someone else without once thinking about yourself. From what you've written, you're thinking of yourself, of YOUR wants and YOUR needs and that's pretty selfish. Men are microwaves, women are crock pots...foreplay starts LONG before you get to the bedroom and turn the lights off. Think about it...what can you do to get your wife's crock pot heated up earlier in the day?

 

[Endeavourer]

Thanks for checking up on me. It's nice to know some really care.
We've had a couple "mini dates" and one full day outing in the middle of a week (self employed,we can do that). No outbursts on my part.

Welcome! Great job on holding back the outbursts.

If you can achieve the 15 hour per week threshold for your situation, where the 15 hours is focused on meeting her emotional needs, you will be amazed at how connected she will feel to you. It will be a new paradigm for your marriage. Unless there is another underlying problem, she will likely feel a very strong desire to meet your emotional needs.

Many couples who have strong marriages do this for life so if you can give it a test drive for three months you will notice a large difference; hopefully such a large difference that you'll want to do it for life, too.

How do you feel your pursuit is coming along? Have you been able to pivot from the past to be more pursuing of her?

 

[Endeavourer]

Men are microwaves, women are crock pots...foreplay starts LONG before you get to the bedroom and turn the lights off. Think about it...what can you do to get your wife's crock pot heated up earlier in the day?

This is a great analogy for a man's pursuit of his wife.

Crockpots can take 8 hours just to bake some chicken...lol.

 

[OK Jeff]

Fellers I'm willing to put in the effort. But I honestly think it's physical on her part. It goes with her cycle. She wants it more than me for one week, we're good (platonic) friends for one week, we're roommates for one week, then she genuinely hates me for one week. And so it goes.....

 

[Endeavourer]

Fellers I'm willing to put in the effort. But I honestly think it's physical on her part. It goes with her cycle. She wants it more than me for one week, we're good (platonic) friends for one week, we're roommates for one week, then she genuinely hates me for one week. And so it goes.....

If I were you, I would not accept this as a factual answer and if I were her, I'd be highly offended to be stereotyped in this way. Millions of women have cycles and do not behave in the way you describe here.

If she were to say your marriage problems are cycle dependent, then you should seek medical options. It is not normal for cycles to be the only source of the problems you have described here.

Rather, I would look to your own refusal to initiate sex as a larger reason for you not enjoying the amount of sex you were hoping to enjoy in your marriage, and go back to the previous suggestions regarding that.