Recovery from the occult forum - an explanation

Someone reported me, which is fine. I explained I wasnt trying to Condemn all Christians, and Apologized for having it come out that way. but you cant please everyone.

I have stated why I am for it and why I am against it. I am going to leave this thread alone now.

~Blessed Be.

CaDan said:

the people who will have to do the most work and pay the most attention to this new forum had no idea this was being done and appear not to want the responsibility

Click to expand...

At this point . . QFT

I have many concerns in this, and one major concern (of many) is that while Erwin states that no non-Christians may post, the wiki of the forum states that they are just fine with seekers and those who are "open to" Christ. Moriah herself lists herself as a seeker, not a Christian, which means that by Erwin's statement, she cannot post there.

Further, while I wish that everyone recovering from such a problem would have a safe, real life, caring pastoral situation that they can be helped by, allowing those who are still recovering to decide who else may access the forum is wrong, IMHO. How can having a secret forum that is invisible lead others to recovery unless they know it is there?

If you do not want people to post, make it a read only without pastoral staff referral.

Allowing non-Christians (seekers are non-Christian) to discuss their experiences from a Christian perspective is just silly. One cannot actually have a Christian perspective without being Christian. And it is no use trying to say that they know how Christians will act, or what Christians will say.

This is dangerous. Discussing in great detail the things that have happened to a person merely keeps those images at the forefront of the person's mind and heart. This is DANGEROUS.

Everyone in this position, whether active occultist or someone struggling to leave, or someone abused by occultists needs our PRAYERS, our LOVE, and such help as we can provide, but this is NOT consistent with allowing people to do whatever they feel is best. It may not BE best. To use a REALLY over-simplistic analogy...a child may feel very passionately that candy three meals a day are in his best interests, and that if anyone loved him, they would agree. A loving parent, who has the best interests of the child in mind, says "eat your vegetables". The child thinks this is mean, and gets very upset about it, but at one point in his more mature understanding, the child realizes WHY it was not allowed to eat candy all day. If the child had access only to those who were on the same level of understanding, the child would not grow in maturity and understanding as quickly, and he would constantly have the things that happened to others to re-enforce his own feelings.

With this forum, where pastoral staff cannot post, what is to prevent the posters from doing more harm to themselves by repeated examples of how nasty Christians are to people like them...re-enforcing the need to get online help only, rather than seeking pastoral care or real life exorcism.

I'm explaining this very badly, but I fear that this is not a Christian way to help, and it will only drive people further from Christ.

Wow. I have several thoughts in regards to this new folder as well as this thread, however, I will only address here what I think needs to be considered overall.

I do agree that offline help is the best help for those trying to recovery from cult/occult issues. Unfortunately, many times the person who is needing help has been hurt at the hands of those who should have helped in the beginning. In addition, when the person has experienced ritualized abuse, there are so many issues that need to be addressed that it can be overwhelming to the persons trying to help.

I personally do not object to having a "secret" folder for this issue for the purpose of protection and safety of the participants for the following reasons.
To get treatment for recovery from this type of abuse tends to be long term and very expensive. Wellspring offers such treatment, but it is prohibitive for many survivors. It is VERY expensive and the last time I spoke with them on behalf of someone, they had a waiting list. http://wellspringretreat.org/

The church is a place where a person should be able to go for help, but many of the survivors I have talked to are afraid because that is where their abuse began.

I agree with the person who brought up the pastoral team overseeing it. I think that's vital and necessary for the health of the folder. Because of the nature of the issues, that anyone moderating it should be on the other side of recovery, not going through recovery. Not because they can't be a good moderator, but because it's hard to work on your own issues when you're focusing on other's issues and support.

Someone commented about if it's secret then how would those who need it be able to find it. It is simple enough to put a sticky message that there is a place for support and a list of those who could be contacted for access.

I also believe a folder like this needs some good guidelines, such as I've seen with the SI folder, where there are limitations on glamorizing experiences/behaviors/etc.

A prayer chain is an excellent idea and again, something I think is necessary. A person doesn't need to know any details to pray, and a prayer chain can be provided with generalities... God already knows the rest.

Having worked in this area (both online and offline), I don't think it opens the site up to major problems if you have some good guidelines in place. There is a definite need of a place for these survivors to find hope. With the many wonderful people I've met here, I have no doubt that this is a place that could offer that with limitations and guidelines. There are always going to be those who will stir up trouble, but that is in every place - online and offline. There will always be the person who is stuck in an unhealthy place and can't/won't make changes, but that again is in a variety of places.

There are times when an organization needs to make special conditions and accommodations, and I think this is one of those areas and times.

I will be praying for this development and those involved in it.

In Him,
Kristen

Kristen said:

The church is a place where a person should be able to go for help, but many of the survivors I have talked to are afraid because that is where their abuse began.

I agree with the person who brought up the pastoral team overseeing it. I think that's vital and necessary for the health of the folder. Because of the nature of the issues, that anyone moderating it should be on the other side of recovery, not going through recovery. Not because they can't be a good moderator, but because it's hard to work on your own issues when you're focusing on other's issues and support.

Click to expand...

Agreed, and well said.

I think if we arent careful, just as you say many who suffered such things began their plight in 'church', this has the potential of becoming the same thing. Having the pastoral staff overseeing such things is much more assurance that this indeed will not happen. What i want to see is the ASSURANCES that this will not be a snare meant to keep those who are seeking deliverance... WHERE are they and WHAT are they?

Katana said:

. A compromise can be made that those not registered with the subforum cannot post, but we must be able to see for ourselves the spiritual state of that forum.

Click to expand...

This is not bad.

Katana said:

I read some rather interesting and blasphemous poems in Moriah's blog. This little inclusion in the rules: Members shall have freedom to discuss openly their personal experiences, feelings, thoughts, opinions, perceptions and genuine theological doubts and questions in this SAFE atmosphere without fear of incurring judgment and nastiness from others.

I believe is a safety valve that would allow her to speak her ridiculous babble and attempt to recruit amongst those "recovering" from the occult. She is not a Christian according to the definition. She is a Christian merely because she may give her self that title, but in reality she is far from God, and even encourages her son towards blasphemy (read that blog of hers). She is an enemy of God and giving her such control in a private forum, or even allowing her into such a forum, is a foolish mistake. It is either a foolish mistake by people who know nothing at all, or it is conspiracy designed to give the Occult a place to be free on a supposedly Christian forum. With the name change and the interesting slogans, I cannot do anything but think that Christianity is slowly being removed as the centerpiece of this website inorder to be replaced with a "Religious" forum open to all cults and beliefs as if they are equal.

What is needed is full openness with this forum so members can view what goes on in there ourselves. A compromise can be made that those not registered with the subforum cannot post, but we must be able to see for ourselves the spiritual state of that forum.

Click to expand...

But you just know when people see the state of it they will want to have the power to post,
People should not be gagged, I understand its hard for ex pagans but sneaking around isn't really the way to go, and it's hardly going to do any good when it comes to fellowshipping with others, It's like a powder keg

I have another question. Does Moriah have complete control over who is and is not admitted? Will she be allowed to deny entry to someone who fits all the qualifications simply because she doesn't like them or want them there?

For the sake of clearing up peoples conceptions of me...
I am the 17 year old on the forum. I am quite aware that demons are not be played with, as that would simply be foolish and dangerous. I do not consider myself a former occultist, but I intend to show Christ's love to those in need. I was not dragged into this, far from it. I was the one who first came to Moriah and had PM exchanges with her. I was the one who requested access to the forum, even though there were some concerns about my age. As I said before - I'm not a little kid in a bubble of innocence.
However, I realize people have concerns about their children having access, which is why City of Refuge/Occult Recovery is a closed forum, and I personally would be opposed to any other minors having access - unless they can provide parental permission as well as demonstrate a high level of maturity.

Macrina said:

Will this change when there are more people, besides Moriah, who need this ministry? Will they be granted the same degree of authority as she is, or will she have a unique position as a founding member? At a certain point, no individual will have complete control over who is admitted to the forum, once there are a number of individuals present with their own unique concerns.

Click to expand...

There are actually several people on the board who can benefit from this forum. While Moriah's experience was a deciding factor in creation of the forum, I believe that many will benefit from its creation.

D'Ann said:

Lisa... I trust BelindaP and Fr. Rick... and I love Moriah and pray for her to over come her spiritual struggles.

I just don't believe that members should be able to exclude potential new members to a forum.

I believe that like all forums, they can have rules that visitors and members have to abide by or get a FSB.

Or set it up like the Ask a Pastor forum or one can make it similar to the support forums.

Click to expand...

The only reason that members have a say in who is allowed into membership is because there are people on this board who will ask for membership and then set about harassing the people in the forum. I have witnessed a variety of people 'play nice' until they have won a measure of trust and then turn on these people.

There will be rules for the forum, and members will be expected to abide by them.

We did explore the idea of the 'ask a pastor' route, and the Pastoral team wasn't particularly interested in having non-Pastoral staff members posting in their threads. I can understand that, because there does need to be a division of sorts there.

The potential members were not too keen on having an 'ask a pastor' type forum where all staff could post. This is because there are (unfortunately) some members of staff who are quite hostile to said members. Since the forum is for the protection of these members, we went with a private forum instead.

VickiY said:

I have many concerns in this, and one major concern (of many) is that while Erwin states that no non-Christians may post, the wiki of the forum states that they are just fine with seekers and those who are "open to" Christ. Moriah herself lists herself as a seeker, not a Christian, which means that by Erwin's statement, she cannot post there.

Further, while I wish that everyone recovering from such a problem would have a safe, real life, caring pastoral situation that they can be helped by, allowing those who are still recovering to decide who else may access the forum is wrong, IMHO. How can having a secret forum that is invisible lead others to recovery unless they know it is there?

If you do not want people to post, make it a read only without pastoral staff referral.

Allowing non-Christians (seekers are non-Christian) to discuss their experiences from a Christian perspective is just silly. One cannot actually have a Christian perspective without being Christian. And it is no use trying to say that they know how Christians will act, or what Christians will say.

This is dangerous. Discussing in great detail the things that have happened to a person merely keeps those images at the forefront of the person's mind and heart. This is DANGEROUS.

Everyone in this position, whether active occultist or someone struggling to leave, or someone abused by occultists needs our PRAYERS, our LOVE, and such help as we can provide, but this is NOT consistent with allowing people to do whatever they feel is best. It may not BE best. To use a REALLY over-simplistic analogy...a child may feel very passionately that candy three meals a day are in his best interests, and that if anyone loved him, they would agree. A loving parent, who has the best interests of the child in mind, says "eat your vegetables". The child thinks this is mean, and gets very upset about it, but at one point in his more mature understanding, the child realizes WHY it was not allowed to eat candy all day. If the child had access only to those who were on the same level of understanding, the child would not grow in maturity and understanding as quickly, and he would constantly have the things that happened to others to re-enforce his own feelings.

With this forum, where pastoral staff cannot post, what is to prevent the posters from doing more harm to themselves by repeated examples of how nasty Christians are to people like them...re-enforcing the need to get online help only, rather than seeking pastoral care or real life exorcism.

I'm explaining this very badly, but I fear that this is not a Christian way to help, and it will only drive people further from Christ.

Click to expand...

Moriah is a Christian seeker and not just a seeker. Christian seekers are considered to be Christian from the POV of the board.

Also, while many envision the members running around ranting wildly, that is not what I expect to happen. What is likely to happen is that one of the members will make a very questionable post, and there will be many Christians there to comfort and straighten that member out.

Moriah, in particular, has a lot of mixed-up views. We were just getting to the point where we could address them with her when a group of members took it upon themselves to begin harassing her to the point of distraction. It is impossible to witness when a member is so upset that they are harming themselves. We need a safe retreat where they can say what's on their minds without fear of being told they're going to hell or the like. While posts might stand that would appall many Christians, the purpose is to help straighten these wrong beliefs out in a safe atmosphere.

Also, Pastoral team members have rights to post in the forum. It is a misconception that they won't be able to post in that forum.

Katana said:

I read some rather interesting and blasphemous poems in Moriah's blog. This little inclusion in the rules: Members shall have freedom to discuss openly their personal experiences, feelings, thoughts, opinions, perceptions and genuine theological doubts and questions in this SAFE atmosphere without fear of incurring judgment and nastiness from others.

I believe is a safety valve that would allow her to speak her ridiculous babble and attempt to recruit amongst those "recovering" from the occult. She is not a Christian according to the definition. She is a Christian merely because she may give her self that title, but in reality she is far from God, and even encourages her son towards blasphemy (read that blog of hers). She is an enemy of God and giving her such control in a private forum, or even allowing her into such a forum, is a foolish mistake. It is either a foolish mistake by people who know nothing at all, or it is conspiracy designed to give the Occult a place to be free on a supposedly Christian forum. With the name change and the interesting slogans, I cannot do anything but think that Christianity is slowly being removed as the centerpiece of this website inorder to be replaced with a "Religious" forum open to all cults and beliefs as if they are equal.

What is needed is full openness with this forum so members can view what goes on in there ourselves. A compromise can be made that those not registered with the subforum cannot post, but we must be able to see for ourselves the spiritual state of that forum.

Click to expand...

Yes, Moriah does have some interesting posts in her blog. Would you prefer that she continue to post these things there, or would you prefer they be out of view. The whole point of the forum is to keep a lot of this stuff out of view. It's not to hide misbehavior, but to prevent the weaker members from having to see and to prevent some of the harassment that has been going on. Leaving it open to everybody's view would not solve any of these problems.

3girls2dogs said:

I have another question. Does Moriah have complete control over who is and is not admitted? Will she be allowed to deny entry to someone who fits all the qualifications simply because she doesn't like them or want them there?

Click to expand...

I don't believe so. She has some say now because she is the one primarily aware of who has been harassing her. She is actually open to member participation for the most part. But there are certain members who will not have access because of their documented actions against her and others in the forum.

I have another question. Does Moriah have complete control over who is and is not admitted? Will she be allowed to deny entry to someone who fits all the qualifications simply because she doesn't like them or want them there?

Click to expand...

The way the forum is set up, a member must meet the basic requirements as well as the requirement of not being met with objections from Moriah, Freitag, or Vespasia. This is primarily to prevent people who have hurt them in the past from gaining access. Not being objected to by Moriah, Freitag, or Vespasia is a requirement, so no one would meet all the requirements if they were opposed by one of them.
That's my understanding, anyways.

Sylvanspirits said:

The way the forum is set up, a member must meet the basic requirements as well as the requirement of not being met with objections from Moriah, Freitag, or Vespasia. This is primarily to prevent people who have hurt them in the past from gaining access. Not being objected to by Moriah, Freitag, or Vespasia is a requirement, so no one would meet all the requirements if they were opposed by one of them.
That's my understanding, anyways.

Click to expand...

How strange. One has to suck up to receive help and admittance,
It is not really help then is it, merely a club ?

Sylvanspirits said:

The way the forum is set up, a member must meet the basic requirements as well as the requirement of not being met with objections from Moriah, Freitag, or Vespasia. This is primarily to prevent people who have hurt them in the past from gaining access. Not being objected to by Moriah, Freitag, or Vespasia is a requirement, so no one would meet all the requirements if they were opposed by one of them.
That's my understanding, anyways.

Click to expand...

So what you are saying is that Moriah, in effect, could block people who really need help simply because she doesn't know them? What is the point then. Clearly, if this is the case, the forum is not to help all people with an occult past, simply those who Moriah, Freitag and Vespasia like.

I'm sorry, I prayed over this most of the night. I'm dragging this morning. This whole thing has really hit me in a place I thought was closed years ago.

How strange.

Click to expand...

Not really. Every one of them has suffered numerous personal attacks, and the forum is meant to be refuge from that as well as a place of support, comfort, and love.

I seriously doubt that Moriah would deny anyone becasue she doesn't know them. It is the people that she knows that are likely to be blocked.

So what you are saying is that Moriah, in effect, could block people who really need help simply because she doesn't know them? What is the point then. Clearly, if this is the case, the forum is not to help all people with an occult past, simply those who Moriah, Freitag and Vespasia like.

I'm sorry, I prayed over this most of the night. I'm dragging this morning. This whole thing has really hit me in a place I thought was closed years ago.

Click to expand...

No. In that case, we would try to work that out. We aren't focused on keeping those who are in genuine need of help out, but rather on keeping those who would hurt people out.

Please understand i have nothing against anyone here personally at all. My desire is to really see those seeking deliverance to receive what they need.

I personally stand on my stated stand, this is something we need assurance isnt a snare for those seeking deliverance.

If those in charge of allowing or disallowing this care that so many have so many objections, they would then take steps to quickly assure everyone that concerns would be addressed and there will be some sort of proper oversite. If they wish for the christian to remain a part of this community, and if we are really going to stick to these 5 principals, these issues really need to be addressed openly and once and for all in clear concise ways. I believe a good thing to do would be to just upfront let everyone know where the lines are drawn. This seems to only create a constant sourse of strife and confusion when so many things are just done in the dark seemingly conflicting with established rules and promises.

this is not the behavior of a person seeking release...

First you wipe the name of Christ from the forums then create secret society's set up to help an odd few who make the most noise
Forgive me Sylvan spirits but how on earth do you expect to get away with this sort of double standard ?