Reconciled to God while enemies !

Brightfame52 · Jan 22, 2024

Unconditional Reconciliation by the death of Christ!

This is a Grand Truth the enemies of the Gospel can't stand, and they come up many witty inventions to deny it. But what says the scripture Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

People Christ died for, were reconciled to God by Christ death, while they were enemies, unbelievers. If they were believers, they can't be enemies, for believers are never addressed as God's enemies. There were no conditions performed by these sinful enemies of God for them to be reconciled to God. And again these same ones have the Divine Promise that they shall be saved by His life.

Brightfame52 · Jan 23, 2024

Unconditional Reconciliation by the death of Christ!2

This reconciliation to God was unconditional to them Christ died for, it was accomplished solely for them by His Death! 21

Brightfame52 · Jan 24, 2024

Rom 5:10 teaches limited atonement and here's why. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled[by His Death], we shall be saved by his life.

Those Christ died for are here promised that they shall be saved His [Christ's] Life.

Now are all men without exception going to be saved by His Life ? No, some will be lost. Remember Jesus will say to some Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These Jesus is speaking to are lost people.

So they cannot be of those who shall be saved by His Life in Rom 5:10

So consequently those Christ died for in Rom 5:10 and reconciled them to God while being enemies, they're limited to only some of mankind, Gods Elect.

Brightfame52 · Jan 25, 2024

Why are they reconciled while being enemies?

The reason why sinners Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 is because of the efficacy of His Death/Blood before God. Now in themselves by nature they are alienated by wicked works, However the Value of Christ Death prevails over that with God. Now the reason why religionists don't receive the love of the Truth, it's because they don't have a regard for the efficacy of Christ death/Blood as God does, which is very disrespectful and dishonoring to God and Christ.

oikonomia · Jan 25, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
Why are they reconciled while being enemies?

The reason why sinners Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 is because of the efficacy of His Death/Blood before God. Now in themselves by nature they are alienated by wicked works, However the Value of Christ Death prevails over that with God. Now the reason why religionists don't receive the love of the Truth, it's because they don't have a regard for the efficacy of Christ death/Blood as God does, which is very disrespectful and dishonoring to God and Christ.

I just read through much of this discussion but not every post. And who and which poster has which position I may get
confused a little. Good points were on a number of sides.

I don't see why yet any side should be quick to accuse the other to not standing for the truth of God's word.
As with the case of many things often the clearest truth is somewhere in the middle of too extreme and passionate presentations.

Christ died for all. Yet all are not redeemed.
Christ died for all who are redeemed. Yet many still have to learn to apply His death to the practices of the body. (Rom. 8:13b)

The audience is those eternally redeemed.
The condition is an IF.
The means is the Spirit . . . "by the Spirit put to death."

Paul, ever speaking by faith teaches the Christians to not be "ignorant" of the rich salvation in Christ.
Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (Rom. 6:3)

He pioneered OUT of ignorance by enjoying the applying all of what Christ did, and is, and has obtained.
He labors to lead the way to his fellow believing audience.

The death of Christ is much more than the shedding of His redemptive blood.
It is also the killing power - the terminating power to terminate the effects of the old man.
This terminating power is in the Spirit. So it is by the Spirit we put to death . . .

It does not take long for the seeking Christian to realize it is not that much by the doctrine.
Without learning to set the mind on the regenerated spirit where the Spirit of Christ is too much cannot be subjectively experienced.
For those who are according to the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but those who are according to the spirit, the things of the Spirit.
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Rom. 8:5,6)

This is exercise. This requires practice. This is a life long lesson to be made habitual.
Ever speaking according to faith Paul tells the audience they ARE not in the flesh but in Christ so they should spend this Christ in all His riches.

But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness.
And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. (Rom. 8:8-11)

What a grand subject this is - the benefits of the death of Christ for us.
We have all heard of justification by faith.
We have all heard of justified in His blood.
But the New Testament also speaks of justification by death.

For he who has died is justified from sin. (Rom. 6:7)

oikonomia · Jan 25, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

All for whom Christ died, have been reconciled to God, by His death alone, not by their obedience, not by their faith, not by their repentance, but even while they were being enemies, unbelievers, children of wrath as others BY NATURE, now if this be the case, their being reconciled, they cannot be under condemnation and wrath as others Jn 3:18,36 even while being unbelievers !

You see, they cannot be both condemned and under wrath as enemies and reconciled to God as enemies at the same time !

Christians can be under self condemnation if peristantly disobedient to the indwelling Spirit.

Because if our heart blames us, it is because God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
Beloved, if our heart does not blame us, we have boldness toward God; (1 John 3:20,21)

The same letter, to those eternally redeemed also says some may be "put to shame from Him at His coming"
This is a temporary punishment.
And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested,
we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming.(1 John 2:20)

Knowing the fear of the Lord in this, Paul and his co-workers labored to present every man not stunted in spiritual growth
but "full-grown" in Christ.
Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man
in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ; (Col. 1:28)

For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad.
Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, . . . (2 Cor. 5:10,11)

zoidar · Jan 25, 2024

oikonomia said:
Christians can be under self condemnation if peristantly disobedient to the indwelling Spirit.

Because if our heart blames us, it is because God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
Beloved, if our heart does not blame us, we have boldness toward God; (1 John 3:20,21)

The same letter, to those eternally redeemed also says some may be "put to shame from Him at His coming"
This is a temporary punishment.
And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested,
we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming.(1 John 2:20)

Knowing the fear of the Lord in this, Paul and his co-workers labored to present every man not stunted in spiritual growth
but "full-grown" in Christ.
Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man
in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ; (Col. 1:28)

For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad.
Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; yet I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences. (2 Cor. 5:10,11)

I'm of the belief those put to shame, will be put to eternal shame.

oikonomia · Jan 25, 2024

zoidar said:
I'm of the belief those put to shame, will be put to eternal shame.

Thankyou for your comment.

Since you have been a Christian . . . have you ever felt shame though you were eternally saved?
I have. And the blood of Christ applied to my failure did miraculous things to restore peace.

Now further, . . . a bit further. At the judgment seat of Christ do you think the eternally saved Christian
could not be shamed by losing a reward THOUGH he be saved?

The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.
If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

I think the saved one here could be temporarily put to shame by suffer[ing] loss.
I think the saved one here could be temporarily put to shame by not receiving in addition to salvation "a reward."
I think the saved one here could be temporarily put to shame by being saved "yet so as through fire."

What do you think? Is this valid reasoning?

Brightfame52 · Jan 25, 2024

@oikonomia

Christ died for all. Yet all are not redeemed.

You lost me right there. Thats an awful thing to say about Christs death, that He can die for someone and they dont be saved as a result.

Brightfame52 · Jan 25, 2024

oikonomia said:
Christians can be under self condemnation if peristantly disobedient to the indwelling Spirit.

Because if our heart blames us, it is because God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
Beloved, if our heart does not blame us, we have boldness toward God; (1 John 3:20,21)

The same letter, to those eternally redeemed also says some may be "put to shame from Him at His coming"
This is a temporary punishment.
And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested,
we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming.(1 John 2:20)

Knowing the fear of the Lord in this, Paul and his co-workers labored to present every man not stunted in spiritual growth
but "full-grown" in Christ.
Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man
in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ; (Col. 1:28)

For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad.
Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, . . . (2 Cor. 5:10,11)

You talking off topic

oikonomia · Jan 25, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
@oikonomia

You lost me right there. Thats an awful thing to say about Christs death, that He can die for someone and they dont be saved as a result.

Hold on there! I did not say that at all.

Christ died for all men and women in the world.
But there is something we can call "substitution".
The substitution of Christ's death can be received or rejected in unbelief.

Not to write a long chapter here but a short post -

The two thieves crucified with Jesus on either side, were both to be with Him in paradise that day?
One thief was redeemed by Christ's death for receiving Him.
The other thief was not redeemed though Christ died. He went on in unbelief.

Don't chide me for being mean or narrow - "an AWFUL thing to say about Christ's death."
Your New Testament says not all will benefit from His death for them if they reject Him.

Now are you a Universalist?
The Bible says that love hopes all things. I do not hold it against a Christian to HOPE that
all will be redeemed. If you hope that all for whom He died also receive Him and His redemptive work, that is understandable.

Love . . . covers all things, believes all things, hopes all things, . . . . (1 Cor. 13:7)

oikonomia · Jan 25, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
You talking off topic

I don't see it that way.

In your next post to me explain why Paul, speaking to eternally saved, eternally justified, and eternally redeemed believers tells them to "be reconciled to God."

On behalf of Christ then we are ambassadors, as God entreats you through us;
we beseech you on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God. (2 Cor. 5:20,21)

zoidar · Jan 25, 2024

oikonomia said:
Thankyou for your comment.

Since you have been a Christian . . . have you ever felt shame though you were eternally saved?
I have. And the blood of Christ applied to my failure did miraculous things to restore peace.

Now further, . . . a bit further. At the judgment seat of Christ do you think the eternally saved Christian
could not be shamed by losing a reward THOUGH he be saved?

The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.
If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

I think the saved one here could be temporarily put to shame by suffer[ing] loss.
I think the saved one here could be temporarily put to shame by not receiving in addition to salvation "a reward."
I think the saved one here could be temporarily put to shame by being saved "yet so as through fire."

What do you think? Is this valid reasoning?

Your reasoning seems ok, but I still think you get it wrong. I think you read too much out of 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, things we really don't know. Also it's not the same thing for a person to be ashamed for a sin he has done, as to say he will be ashamed (or put to shame by God) at Christ's coming. There is also the book of Daniel.

... everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace (or shame) and everlasting contempt.
— Daniel 12:1-2

Brightfame52 · Jan 26, 2024

Reconciled and alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord !

The Elect those Christ lived and died for, are reconciled to God, put into a right relationship with Him, saved from their sins, the penalty of sin,while they are enemies, unbelievers, even while hating God Rom 5:10. Now how can this be ? How can wretched, rebellious sinners possibly in a right favorable relationship with God, as if they have never sinned ? Its because of the death of Christ for them, and its because they are in Christ their Head. Folks all for whom Christ died are in Him, or He could not have died for them, neither could have their sins been legally charged to Him, if they weren't in Him ! Now just as Christ died unto sin for them, and was raised to live unto God Rom 6:9-10

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin [for His Sheep] once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God[for his Sheep].

So those He lived and died for, and was raised up for, when He was made alive unto God[after death], so they also are made alive unto God through or in Him Rom 6:11

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The greek word through here is en, in, on, among.

[ (a preposition) – properly, with"in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) which something operates from the inside (with

They are alive unto God in their Head the Lord Jesus Christ. Its the same principle as when the Elect were alive unto God in Adam before the fall. Man was in a state of friendship/fellowship with God, in Adam the first before the transgression, likewise redeemed man is alive and reconciled to God, while being enemies, in Jesus Christ their Lord. They are just as alive to God in Christ as Christ is alive unto God, as their Surety Head so that is why the elect are reconciled to God, even while enemies ! 21

Brightfame52 · Jan 26, 2024

@oikonomia

Hold on there! I did not say that at all.

Christ died for all men and women in the world.
But there is something we can call "substitution".
The substitution of Christ's death can be received or rejected in unbelief.

You did say it, you appear here to be saying that Christ can die for a person, in their place and stead,, and yet they can reject that and die in unbelief and in their sins,

Again thats an awful thing to say, to even imply !

Brightfame52 · Jan 26, 2024

oikonomia said:
I don't see it that way.

In your next post to me explain why Paul, speaking to eternally saved, eternally justified, and eternally redeemed believers tells them to "be reconciled to God."

On behalf of Christ then we are ambassadors, as God entreats you through us;
we beseech you on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God. (2 Cor. 5:20,21)

I have already explained in this thread. Do you deny they are already reconciled ? What does 2 Cor 5:18-19 say ?

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

zoidar · Jan 26, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
@oikonomia

You did say it, you appear here to be saying that Christ can die for a person, in their place and stead,, and yet they can reject that and die in unbelief and in their sins,

Again thats an awful thing to say, to even imply !

You realize the consequence of your view? It means the Christ, the Messiah, God the Son, won victory over some sin in the world by his death and resurrection. SOME sin!!!

Brightfame52 · Jan 26, 2024

zoidar said:
You realize the consequence of your view? It means the Christ, the Messiah, God the Son, won victory over some sin in the world by his death and resurrection. SOME sin!!!

The sin of His elect whom He came to save, all others besides them were created for destruction.

oikonomia · Jan 26, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
I have already explained in this thread. Do you deny they are already reconciled ? What does 2 Cor 5:18-19 say ?

These great verses say -
But all things are out from God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Christ and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
Namely, that God in Christ was reconciling the world to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them, and has put in us the word of reconciliation.

Then verse 20 - On behalf of Christ then we are ambassadors, as God entreats you through us;
we beseech you on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God. (v.20)

In verse 19 it was "the world" God reconciled to Himself. In verse 20 it is the "we" the believers who have already been
reconciled to God who need to be FURTHER reconciled. There are two steps for men to be fully reconciled to God.

The first step is God reconciling sinners to Himself from sin. Ie. - Romans 5:10a
For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
For this purpose Christ died for our sins. Praise Him.
For I delivered to you, first of all, that which also I received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; (1 Cor. 15:3)
This is for forgiveness. And it is the objective aspect. He bore our sins that they might be judged by God upon Christ's cross.

The second step is believers being reconciled to God from the natural life and from the flesh.
For this step Christ died for us - the persons - that we might live to Him in the resurrection life.
Ie. For the love of Christ constrains us because we have judged this, that One died for all, therefore all died;
And He died for all that those who live may no longer live to themselves but to Him who died for them and has been raised.(vs. 14,15)

This is the subjective aspect of His death. In this terminating aspect of our old man Christ died for us by being made sin for us.
He was made sin. judged and done away with by God that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

We know of justification by faith. (Gal. 2:16; Rom. 5:1)
We know of justification in His blood. (Rom. 5:9)
We know of the justifcation in His life (Rom.5:18)
We must also know justification by dying with Him.
For he who has died is justified from sin. (Rom. 6:7)

The two steps, the objective then the subjective, accomplish the full reconciation to God.

Brightfame52 · Jan 26, 2024

oikonomia said:
These great verses say -
But all things are out from God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Christ and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
Namely, that God in Christ was reconciling the world to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them, and has put in us the word of reconciliation.

Then verse 20 - On behalf of Christ then we are ambassadors, as God entreats you through us;
we beseech you on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God. (v.20)

In verse 19 it was "the world" God reconciled to Himself. In verse 20 it is the "we" the believers who have already been
reconciled to God who need to be FURTHER reconciled. There are two steps for men to be fully reconciled to God.

The first step is God reconciling sinners to Himself from sin. Ie. - Romans 5:10a
For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
For this purpose Christ died for our sins. Praise Him.
For I delivered to you, first of all, that which also I received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; (1 Cor. 15:3)
This is for forgiveness. And it is the objective aspect. He bore our sins that they might be judged by God upon Christ's cross.

The second step is believers being reconciled to God from the natural life and from the flesh.
For this step Christ died for us - the persons - that we might live to Him in the resurrection life.
Ie. For the love of Christ constrains us because we have judged this, that One died for all, therefore all died;
And He died for all that those who live may no longer live to themselves but to Him who died for them and has been raised.(vs. 14,15)

This is the subjective aspect of His death. In this terminating aspect of our old man Christ died for us by being made sin for us.
He was made sin. judged and done away with by God that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

We know of justification by faith. (Gal. 2:16; Rom. 5:1)
We know of justification in His blood. (Rom. 5:9)
We know of the justifcation in His life (Rom.5:18)
We must also know justification by dying with Him.
For he who has died is justified from sin. (Rom. 6:7)

The two steps, the objective then the subjective, accomplish the full reconciation to God.

Those in 2 Cor 5:20 being addressed had already been reconciled to God, in fact they were already new creatures in Christ, look at Vs 17

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Give God the Glory !

Reconciled to God while enemies !

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