Reconciled to God while enemies !

Brightfame52 · Jan 10, 2024

Reconciled to Gods Law also !

Not only are the elect by Christ's death reconciled to God while being enemies, sinners, ungodly Rom 5:10, but they are reconciled to Gods Law as well. It , the Law of God cannot condemn them, it cannot lay any charge against them, in fact they are dead to the law, by Christ's death, the body of Christ Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Now why is this so ? Because of the full satisfaction paid to it by the Cross of Christ. You see, all those charges the law did accuse them of, they were guilty of, had been nailed to the Cross, Col 2:14

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Wherefore they became dead to the Law by the Body of Christ, reconciled to it, at peace with it and God ! And this even still while being enemies in our minds against God ! The natural mind of man cannot receive this tremendous truth of the Gospel of God !

Mark Quayle · Jan 10, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
Reconciled to Gods Law also !

Not only are the elect by Christ's death reconciled to God while being enemies, sinners, ungodly Rom 5:10, but they are reconciled to Gods Law as well. It , the Law of God cannot condemn them, it cannot lay any charge against them, in fact they are dead to the law, by Christ's death, the body of Christ Rom 7:4

So far, it seems to me, you take the language of Romans 5:10 "...while we were God’s enemies..." to posit that while the elect were temporally still unregenerate, they are reconciled to God, and here you are saying they are also, while temporally still unregenerate, reconciled to the Law of God.

Are you then going to say that all fact concerning their end also fits under that umbrella —that they are therefore also already saved, forgiven, repentant and glorified? I say this to illustrate the absurd end to which that logic leads.

Rom 5:10 (Literal Standard) "...for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we will be saved in His life." I take it not as indicative of a temporal sequence. The Greek is ambiguous at best there. A literal translation does not imply "while" or "when" in a temporal sense, but only in a logical sense: "God did this for us even though we were sinners." Not, "God did this to us while we were still unregenerate."

Brightfame52 said:
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Now why is this so ? Because of the full satisfaction paid to it by the Cross of Christ. You see, all those charges the law did accuse them of, they were guilty of, had been nailed to the Cross, Col 2:14

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Wherefore they became dead to the Law by the Body of Christ, reconciled to it, at peace with it and God ! And this even still while being enemies in our minds against God ! The natural mind of man cannot receive this tremendous truth of the Gospel of God !

God did this FOR us while we were enemies. It does not say that God did this TO us while we were enemies. Don't attribute a lack of agreement with you on the use of this verse to a natural mind being unable to understand. You have an awful lot of contradictions to wade through before going there.

Scriptures also say that we were (before regeneration) as the reprobate are; just for a quick example, Ephesians 2 says we WERE dead in our sins, not dead TO sin.

Brightfame52 · Jan 10, 2024

@Mark Quayle

So far, it seems to me, you take the language of Romans 5:10 "...while we were God’s enemies..." to posit that while the elect were temporally still unregenerate, they are reconciled to God,

Thats correct. the elect are reconciled to God by Christs death while they are still being enemies. That implies prior to regeneration.

and here you are saying they are also, while temporally still unregenerate, reconciled to the Law of God.

Correct, Jesus life and death for them satisfied for them all the demands of the Law, dont you agree with that ?

Mark Quayle · Jan 10, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
@Mark Quayle

Thats correct. the elect are reconciled to God by Christs death while they are still being enemies. That implies prior to regeneration.

Correct, Jesus life and death for them satisfied for them all the demands of the Law, dont you agree with that ?

Of course, but only in the same sense as in 1 John 1:9, (literal rendering, according to my Koinè Greek master father), "If we are confessing our sins he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sins..." Completed action in the past, but contingent on our present confessing.

Yes, the fact of it was completed at the death of Christ, (and there is evidence that it would be true to say, "complete from the foundation of the world"). The problem is that the contingency of regeneration and faith is still not in evidence up until the present. Therefore, while one is still at enmity with God, he is still obedient to the flesh. We are not repentant, not obedient, not submitting to Christ, not humble, not [so many more things], until we are regenerated and given faith.

That the fact that it was completed back then is part of my reason for insisting on particular redemption. But that doesn't imply, as the Self-determinist would claim, that our doctrine implies that there is nothing left for God to do concerning salvation. To take the notion to its implied extreme, the marriage of the Bride to the Lamb is not consummated until we are resurrected.

Brightfame52 · Jan 10, 2024

Mark Quayle said:
Of course, but only in the same sense as in 1 John 1:9, (literal rendering, according to my Koinè Greek master father), "If we are confessing our sins he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sins..." Completed action in the past, but contingent on our present confessing.

Yes, the fact of it was completed at the death of Christ, (and there is evidence that it would be true to say, "complete from the foundation of the world"). The problem is that the contingency of regeneration and faith is still not in evidence up until the present. Therefore, while one is still at enmity with God, he is still obedient to the flesh. We are not repentant, not obedient, not submitting to Christ, not humble, not [so many more things], until we are regenerated and given faith.

That the fact that it was completed back then is part of my reason for insisting on particular redemption. But that doesn't imply, as the Self-determinist would claim, that our doctrine implies that there is nothing left for God to do concerning salvation. To take the notion to its implied extreme, the marriage of the Bride to the Lamb is not consummated until we are resurrected.

Then you dont believe and agree. Christ alone satisfied the Law for the elect, apart from anything they do. They are born into the world dead to the law and reconciled to God while enemies, unbelievers.

Mark Quayle · Jan 10, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
Then you dont believe and agree. Christ alone satisfied the Law for the elect, apart from anything they do. They are born into the world dead to the law and reconciled to God while enemies, unbelievers.

Just another little example of how things can be said differently: Don't tell me I don't believe, without telling me WHAT I don't believe. I've been severely warned for less. Yes, I know what you meant —at least, what I hope you meant.

I'm a little curious, what you do with 2 Corinthians 5:20, where Paul says, "We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God." Why would he implore them to be reconciled to God if they already were?

Brightfame52 · Jan 10, 2024

Mark Quayle said:
Just another little example of how things can be said differently: Don't tell me I don't believe, without telling me WHAT I don't believe. I've been severely warned for less. Yes, I know what you meant —at least, what I hope you meant.

I'm a little curious, what you do with 2 Corinthians 5:20, where Paul says, "We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God." Why would he implore them to be reconciled to God if they already were?

I have discussed 2 Cor 5:20 in this thread.

zoidar · Jan 10, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
I have discussed 2 Cor 5:20 in this thread.

Then tell him the post. Thanks!

Brightfame52 · Jan 10, 2024

zoidar said:
Then tell him the post. Thanks!

No, read the thread, thats putting double work on me. If I already explained something, thats not on me if you havent read it.

Mark Quayle · Jan 10, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
No, read the thread, thats putting double work on me. If I already explained something, thats not on me if you havent read it.

Did a search. Didn't show up. Oh well, it's a side track. I'm right there with you as far as your thesis: That if one's salvation is conditioned on anything they do, it is works salvation, and contrary to grace. That much we definitely agree on.

Brightfame52 · Jan 11, 2024

he reconciliation is complete !

The reconciled world of 2 Cor 5:19 and Rom 5:10 by the death of Christ, cannot be under any circumstances, not one member of it, under the wrath of God, for reconciliation with God is also peace with God, meaning that through Christ's finished work, God is at peace with the reconciled world through the blood of Christ Col 1:19-22

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Now the word for reconcile here vs 21,22 is apokatallassó and means nothing short of:

to reconcile completely !!! This is not a partial or one sided reconciliation as the false teachers tell us, falsifying by saying , God has done His part through Christ to reconcile man, but now its up to man to do his part by accepting it or believing it before it can be a complete reconciliation both ways. Again that's falsifying not found in scripture. This satanic teaching undermines and sabotages the complete sufficiency and efficiency of the death of Christ to have successfully reconciled both parties to one another, that is God to His Elect, and His Elect to God. In fact the word reconcile here goes on to mean: to bring back into harmony, to draw to Himself/Oneself so that the reconciled one becomes devoted to God.

However false teachers deny this, because they are unable to receive the scriptural teaching of being reconciled to God by the death of Christ, even while being enemies Rom 5:10 ! 15

Brightfame52 · Jan 11, 2024

Mark Quayle said:
Did a search. Didn't show up. Oh well, it's a side track. I'm right there with you as far as your thesis: That if one's salvation is conditioned on anything they do, it is works salvation, and contrary to grace. That much we definitely agree on.

Evidently you dont know how to search. I did one and it showed up, that's more work on me.

Mark Quayle · Jan 11, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
Evidently you dont know how to search. I did one and it showed up, that's more work on me.

Evidently. So why not show me?

Brightfame52 · Jan 11, 2024

Mark Quayle said:
Evidently. So why not show me?

Why not read ? Why do you think people take time and effort to make these posts ? Just so people can ignore them and then ask questions that have been addressed ? Please learn how to use the very helpful search tool.

zoidar · Jan 11, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
he reconciliation is complete !

The reconciled world of 2 Cor 5:19 and Rom 5:10 by the death of Christ, cannot be under any circumstances, not one member of it, under the wrath of God, for reconciliation with God is also peace with God, meaning that through Christ's finished work, God is at peace with the reconciled world through the blood of Christ Col 1:19-22

...

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
— Ephesians 2:1-3

Brightfame52 · Jan 13, 2024

The reconciliation is complete !2

Now how was this accomplished ? The text tells us Col 1:20

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

It was solely by /through the blood of His Cross, or His Death, the same Death of Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death or Blood of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

And by it [His Death/Blood] He made Peace with God. And once again, lets now look at the word peace, its the greek word eirénopoios and means:

I make peace, reconcile.

to make peace, establish harmony

Now this could not be True if both parties have not been reconciled to one another ! It establishes a harmony between God and men. Now it doesnt begin with the men in and of themselves, but of men as they are represented in Christ their Head. Its just like in the beginning man had a harmony with God in Adam, their federal covenant head at creation, before the transgression, so likewise, those men in Christ, whom He represented in His death, burial, and resurrection, they now have a harmony with God, and vice versa because of the harmony that exist between Christ their Head and God !. Now all men Christ represented have no less harmony with God as man had with God before the fall in Adam ! Yes before the fall God was reconciled to Adam and men in him, and Adam and men in him reconciled to God.

15

Brightfame52 · Jan 15, 2024

The reconciliation is complete ! 3

The same Truth of the peace/reconciliation the death of Christ would provide for them He died for is seen in the OT Prophets here Isa 53:5

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The word peace shalom means :

completeness, soundness, welfare, peace, peace, friendship

of human relationships

with God especially in covenant relationship

Those whom Christ died for, for whom He was wounded for their transgressions[rebellion], bruised for their iniquities, it effected for them Peace with God and reconciliation with God.

Understand, those Christ died for, God upon Him took out vengeance upon Him for their sins, so that Gods vengeance on their sins has been appeased, Justice for them hath been satisfied, and Peace established

Isa 54:10

For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

Brightfame52 · Jan 16, 2024

Why the be ye reconciled to God ?

2 Cor 5:17-20

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God

This imperative, in the passive voice may i add, is directed to new creatures in Christ Vs 17, also to them that have already been reconciled to God by Christ's death Vs 18-19; Rom 5:10, to them that have no sins of theirs charged or imputed to them Vs 19.

Now the imperative to them is not to the unreconciled, but the already reconciled, so its not an imperative wherein a choice must be made to either obey or not, be reconciled or not be reconciled, no its an imperative wherein God is actually causing the already reconciled, is causing the truth of it to be reconciled, embraced, receive into their hearts and minds and affections, causing them to receive the truth of them having already been reconciled to God through Christ's death. We know this because the command " be ye reconciled" is in the passive voice,, which means :

The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, "The boy was hit by the ball," the boy receives the action.

Its the living voice of Christ, through His messengers turning the minds and hearts of His people to embrace the truth in Faith. Under the New Covenant it is written Ezk 36:27

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Its a command as if Christ were to say, let there be light, light would therefore obey the command of Christ, hence Christ shines in the heart the light of the gospel [of reconciliation through Him] 2 Cor 4:6

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

So the imperative is not to lost souls separated from God, and dead in sin, but quickened, regenerated souls, new creatures, who are now being reconciled to the truth of their reconciliation/salvation !15

John Mullally · Jan 17, 2024

Brightfame52 said:
Why the be ye reconciled to God ?

2 Cor 5:17-20

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God

This imperative, in the passive voice may i add, is directed to new creatures in Christ Vs 17, also to them that have already been reconciled to God by Christ's death Vs 18-19; Rom 5:10, to them that have no sins of theirs charged or imputed to them Vs 19.

Now the imperative to them is not to the unreconciled, but the already reconciled, so its not an imperative wherein a choice must be made to either obey or not, be reconciled or not be reconciled, no its an imperative wherein God is actually causing the already reconciled, is causing the truth of it to be reconciled, embraced, receive into their hearts and minds and affections, causing them to receive the truth of them having already been reconciled to God through Christ's death. We know this because the command " be ye reconciled" is in the passive voice,, which means :

The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, "The boy was hit by the ball," the boy receives the action.

2 Corinthians 5:19 says that in Christ God reconciled the world to himself. Ephesians 1:13 tells us how people are included in Christ and it does not happen until the gospel is believed.

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Brightfame52 said:
Its the living voice of Christ, through His messengers turning the minds and hearts of His people to embrace the truth in Faith. Under the New Covenant it is written Ezk 36:27

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezekiel 36:27 is addressed to the Israelites at a future date - reference Ezekiel 36:22. Note that although the Israelites were called God's chosen people, many were not saved.

Brightfame52 · Jan 17, 2024

Being reconciled to God even when they were being enemies, is proof that their sins had been done away with, and God not imputing them to them 2 Cor 5:19, else they could not have been reconciled to God and received into His favour, which being reconciled entails. The greek word for reconciled in Rom 5:10 is katallasso, which does mean that God receives one into His favour, having reconciled that one to Himself 2 Cor5:18; to be restored to favour; and once again this is true of all sinners Christ died for, which reconciled them to God while they themselves were being enemies, that is being hostile to God and opposing Him.

Reconciled to God while enemies !

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