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Reception of Converts - Baptism vs. Marriage

jas3

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I understand that there are differing opinions on whether to receive converts from Protestantism, who have been given a Protestant baptism, by baptism or chrismation, but I've been wondering: if the idea with either baptism or chrismation is that there's something lacking in a Protestant baptism, then why doesn't the same (as far as I know) apply to a Protestant marriage?
 
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Josheb

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Great question. You don't actually state it so I have to ask: by specifying "Protestant" ceremonies, is the comparison to Eastern Orthodoxy (EO)? If so, then why isn't the comparison the original Christian practice that preceded the great schism? If I go a step further, why isn't this inquiry couched in the Judaic practices and the messianic foreshadowing of those rituals found in the Old Testament? Why measure Protestantism by a set of conditions that did not exist for the first thousand years in Christendom?

I understand this is the EO board. I have nothing against EOism, so I would like you to know this is post not a troll. I assume you're familiar with the history of the Orthodox Church and, therefore, already know the EO is itself a an institution (church, denomination, or sect if you prefer) that has its origins in protest. It, therefore, would be correct and just to call the Orthodox protestant (small "p"). Similarly, the Protestant Church was formed from an effort to restore orthodoxy (small "o") to Christian thought, doctrine, and practice. Each institution was simply focusing on problems in the Roman Catholic Church that existed at the respective times of each groups beginning. More importantly, not only were both groups "birthed" as a consequence of protest, and protest against political and doctrinal error, but both also have their roots in Judaism - especially the rituals of baptism (and other conversion-related rituals) and marriage. Doctrinally speaking (Christologically, soteriologically, ecclesiologically, and eschatologically) we (EOs and Prots) also share a lot of common ground regardng those two rituals and their accompanying theologies.

So, if you wouldn't mind, aside from the presumption you're EO, why couch these inquiries in Orthodoxy as the measure instead of some of the common ground measures?


As a Protestant of no particular denominational allegiance (I do not believe God is a respecter of denominations or denominationalism) I'll offer an answer to your inquires. The first is logistical. Suppose the Orthodox Church rejected the baptisms and marriages of converts. The necessary implication would be that those converts were never married. We might qualify that as "never correctly married," but that only obfuscates the underlying point. If their marriage was false then their marriage begins only once the EO ceremony is performed. Can you see how that would be a practical problem? Another approach is couched in the fact Jesus accepted, affirmed, and asserted marriage in Judaism, and not once did he state, or remotely imply, a Jewish wedding was invalid (in fact, I do not recall him ever implicating a Gentile marriage, either). Therefore, formerly Jewish converts who are married in Judaism would, in theory, have a more historic practice in their ceremony than the EO. There is, potentially, a simple solution: a renewal of vows. My second avenue for answering the op's inquiries is more doctrinal. Because Christian marriage is understood to have relevancy to the doctrines I listed above (marriage is Christological, soteriological, eschatological, etc.) and we all share a lot of common ground there, it becomes incumbent upon the EO to specify the points of departure relevant to each doctrine. I can't see that any of those differences is going to have a practical distinction. Jewish, Orthodox, and Protestant marriage is still a ritual or ceremony first seeded in Genesis (Adam and Eve), and marriages is still a ceremony foreshadowing the Lamb's marriage feast.

So perhaps you could specify what you think are salient concerns predicated on actual differences between Orthos and Prots. Take your time. I've got to go soon and may not be back in the forum today.
 
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prodromos

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My wife and I were married in the Anglican Church before I became Eastern Orthodox. We later had a crowning ceremony (marriage) in the Orthodox Church.
Interestingly enough, we were only able to conceive our second child after the crowning ceremony.
My eldest daughter got married in the midst of Covid and ended up having a civil wedding at her in-laws home as we were not able to travel to the USA. Despite trying to have children from the start, they did not conceive until after they had their wedding in the Orthodox Church when they came to Australia.
 
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jas3

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My wife and I were married in the Anglican Church before I became Eastern Orthodox. We later had a crowning ceremony (marriage) in the Orthodox Church.
Interesting, is that what usually happens, or was yours a special case?
 
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prodromos

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Interesting, is that what usually happens, or was yours a special case?
It may have been on the advice of my wife's spiritual father at the time. I don't remember.
 
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jas3

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So perhaps you could specify what you think are salient concerns predicated on actual differences between Orthos and Prots.
The fundamental difference is that Orthodoxy isn't and has never been "birthed as a result of protest." As a result, the understanding of the nature, purpose, administration, and in many cases even the existence of the sacraments is radically different in Protestantism. I'd be happy to go into more detail in a thread in St. Justin Martyr's Corner, because your post is well-written and deserves a considerate response, but in the interest of keeping TAW true to its statement of purpose, I'll leave it at that for now.
 
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rusmeister

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Hi! we are glad that you understand that this is the EO board. We are sad that you do not understand the rules of congregational forms which are sitewide, and not limited to this site. You are not allowed to challenge or debate our teaching in this main forum, but we do believe in letting people challenge us and have a special subforum for it, St Justin’s. it should be visible on the main page for TAW. Please feel welcome to take this post there.
 
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rusmeister

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My experience says that it is a a lot more voluntary. A Church blessing is done of the marriage on request, but it is not required. As to “why”, good question. It could be equally asked why anyone would NOT want a Church blessing.
 
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ArmyMatt

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It could be equally asked why anyone would NOT want a Church blessing.
it’s interesting you say this, because most of my married converts want their marriage to be blessed by the Church.
 
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RileyG

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it’s interesting you say this, because most of my married converts want their marriage to be blessed by the Church.
Is the sacred mystery (sacrament) of marriage called crowning or holy matrimony? or both? or am I just overthinking it?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Is the sacred mystery (sacrament) of marriage called crowning or holy matrimony? or both? or am I just overthinking it?
crowning is one section of the service.
 
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RileyG

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zippy2006

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That's an interesting question. You could ask the same thing of Catholicism. And how does it work with the priesthood? Here is an excerpt from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America that is mildly related:

"Concerning mixed marriages of Orthodox Christians with non-Orthodox Christians or non-Christians: Marriage between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians is forbidden according to canonical akribeia (Canon 72 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council)."​
 
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jas3

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As to “why”, good question. It could be equally asked why anyone would NOT want a Church blessing.
I don't think it's in question that a properly catechized convert would want his marriage blessed by the Church, it's just a matter of what form that blessing takes.
 
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ArmyMatt

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...the official name of the sacrament is????

Marriage?

Holy Matrimony?
officially I would say Holy Matrimony or Wedding. marriage is what the bride and groom do for the rest of their life.
 
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All4Christ

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Interesting, is that what usually happens, or was yours a special case?
There are people in our parish who had more children without a marriage in the Orthodox Church. There are some as well who are married in the Orthodox Church who are not blessed with children (I know this latter scenario very well first-hand).
 
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RileyG

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officially I would say Holy Matrimony or Wedding. marriage is what the bride and groom do for the rest of their life.
Thanks father.
 
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