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Receiving Jesus the BIBLICAL way.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Jul 14, 2001.

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  1. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    ROBERT ANTON ("Bob") WILSON

    "In Doubt We Trust" Cults, Religions and B.S. in General":

    "...There are two clear-cut and empirical lines between a 'cult' and a 'religion': (a) membership (voters) and (b) bank account, (b) being a function of (a). If a group has enough members to influence elections, it will also have a large bank account, and these two factors will guarantee that the politicians, the cops and the corporate media will treat it with respect, as a 'religion'. With few members and little money, the same group could be called a 'cult' and treated accordingly, even to the extent of toasting, roasting and charbroiling, as in Waco.
    "This line remains obvious and visible to all observers; the only problem arises when people try to draw a less 'materialistic', more metaphysical distinction between one gang of True Believers and another. Materialistic questions can be answered - e.g., 'Does that match-box have any matches left in it?' Metaphysical questions about 'mind control' or any other immeasurable 'entity' or 'essense' cannot be answered, and the best that can be said of them is that arguing about them has provided a certain amount of intellectual entertainment, or combat, for a few thousand years, for those who enjoy that kind of passtime. Sort of like chess, you know.

    "I have no commitment to materialism as a philosophy which pretends to explain everything (which no correlation of words can ever do, and a philosophy is never more than a correlation of words). But, restricting myself to the 'materialistic'/scientific method of asking questions that have definite experiential answers, I observe no difference in operation between 'cults' or 'religions'. Catholic nuns and priests vowing celibacy seem no weirder or less weird than Heaven's Gate members who also make that choice. Mormon extraterrestrial cosmology seems as goofy as Scientology, etc. Religions and cults all use the same techniques of brain damage or 'mind control', i.e., they all instill B.S. - Belief Systems..."
     
  2. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

    +983
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    >>A cult is any group that says that if you're not one of them, then you ain't saved.

    Hmmm. That seems to apply to every "religion" on the planet too then doesn't it?
     
  3. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "I don't see the word "ALONE" in the verse. God does not allow anyone to ADD to nor SUBTRACT from His word. As apostle James said, "faith only" does not justifiy a man. It must be faith accompanied by deeds. Paul was referring to "works of law" (Galatians chapters 2 and 3)."

    :lol: ed, don't you realize you are saying that you have to "do something to be saved" ..that's EXACTLY WHAT THE LAW IS!!! Calatians chapters 2 and 3 talk about faith alone..should I quote..Check verse 16 of chapter three..know that a man is not justifed by observing the law (physical acts ie sabbath law and/or baptism ;) ) but by faith in Jesus christ." there is a period..it means thats it..nothing else included :)

    "It is clear from these verses that faith only (without deeds or works) is not true faith and no one is justified by faith only. "

    hmm..false conclusion..you CAN conclude that it is not true faith I agree..but that's the ONLY thing you can conclude.

    "Paul was referring to the observance of the law as the WORKS that justifies no one. "

    I agree..that tells us that it means faith..that's it ;) He is saying that he..a tree can be barren and you can't tell what kind of tree it is..but when it bears fruit..he has to bear the right kind of fruit..get it..its faith alone..but works naturally follow..but ARE NOT a requirement.

    ""Faith alone" is needed to receive a reward from
    God. This is a flalse interpretation of the verse."

    I agree, but we weren't talking about rewards but salvation which is a little bit different :)

    "Hence, one who believes in God but does not diligently seek Him does not plese God and will not receive any reward.
    "

    Agreed again..but this doesn't mean they are not saved...only not rewarded :)
     
  4. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    The "3 step" was posted by another I beleive, but I agree with what the poster said. The verses we use are the same you use, but you find a different meaning in them than we do.

    And, I have never described it as Universal. If you re-read all our conversations, you will notice that you are the one who brought the term universal into the conversation. The Universal church you speak of in Rev. will be the church of the Anti-Christ. That is not set up yet, so I, know I am not a member of it ;)

    TO clarify your definition: The thing they have in common, are adhering to the basic Doctrines of Salvation which deal with Salvation. The reason denominations exist in the Christian Church, stem from man trying to understand things which rely partially on interpretation. However, while I feel that seperation of the church into Denominations can at times be a detriment to the Christian Church, none of the issues which result in this seperation are needed for salvation.

    And, within what I refer to as the Christian Church, the same above applies. The only difference is that our Administration is God ;)

    Originally you claimed that this "probationary" period happened before salvation (salvation being redemption, forgiveness, and ultimately being adopted as a Child of God).

    IN your quote above, you now claim it can happen in the middle of your "process".

    Lets look at more of I Peter...

    Chapter 1

    3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    Here we see Peter writing to the chuch(es) mentioned in the beginning verses, and he says "blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which... hath begotten us.. It is clear the both Peter and those he is writing to are already "begotten" agian, or reborn, and, like Jesus, consider God as the Father.

    4. "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,"

    5 "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

    6 "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:"

    7 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"

    And, with the above considered, we see the trials of Faith are occuring after thier salvation.

    14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:"

    15 "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;"

    16 "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."

    17 "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear"

    And in these verses Peter is referring to them, as Obedient Children of the Father.

    So here we have beleivers who are Children of God, and are going trials in the Faith.

    So, I ask you, does your "Administration" keep issuing these trials after a perosn of your church becomes a Child of God?

    Keep in mind that one of the big issues here is who's definition od "Church of Christ" is valid.

    Also, I believe that the Baptism Jesus refers to is not a ceremony of water, but a Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I also consider this Baptism sperate form what is referred to as the "Filling of the Holy Spirit".

    John 1:33 "And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."

    We see here that Jesus is described as the one who Baptizes with the Holy Ghost.

    Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

    Here we see John the Baptist making claim that while his way of Baptism is a step toward repentance, it will be replaced iwth the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus brings.

    Just to Clarify.. the "Spirit" is reference here is the Holy Spirit. I just wanted to clear up any misconception that this was a spirit seperate from God.

    Sp hy call it a "Chruch Registry"? I mean, unless you are writing name sin a book that was bound almost 2000 years ago... I doubt there is a mirror version of the Book of Life floationg around on Earth somewhere.

    Well, while he doe snot actually say "members" I will agree that He is talking about Christians (or Children of God, as you prefer to call us).

    Heh, until now, I have never heard a "Christian" tell those who may reject Christ, to go away. ;)

    I know in my heart I am already there...
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    LouisBooth,

    I fully agree with Gal. 2:16 Louis. No one is justified by WORKS of the LAW. We can only be justified by faith in Christ. However, as Apostle James states in James 2:17, faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead. For as a body without spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also (James 2:26)

    It seems to me then, that "faith in Christ" Biblically means much more than what most people have been made to believe. Just what do you understand by "faith in Christ" Louis?

    Apostle James seems to be saying that "faith in Christ" means listening to Jesus, believing what he says and obeying his teaching (John 8:31). Isn't this what you understand by having "faith in Christ" Louis?

    To fully understand the meaning of having "faith in Christ" we must search the scripture and compare spiritual things with spiritual.

    Let's start our search at Romans 5:1 where it says: "Therefore, having been justified by FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Thus, we see that the people whom apostle Paul was writing to have been justified by FAITH and have made PEACE with God.

    We continue our search to Rom. 5:8 where Paul is telling these people who have been justified by FAITH and who have made PEACE with God that Christ died FOR them. Did Christ die for ALL? The verse says Christ died ONLY for these people who have been justified by faith and have made peace with God.

    And on to verse 9 which says that because Christ died for them, they are now justified by his BLOOD and will be saved from God's wrath.

    Romans 5:10 tells us that these people used to be enemies of God but because they have been justified by Christ's BLOOD, they are now reconciled to God.

    To summarize Louis, those who are justified by faith in Christ have made peace with God and because Christ died for them, they are also justified by his BLOOD and have been reconciled to God.

    But who are these people and where can we find them? Did Christ die for anyone else beside these people whom Paul was talking to?

    Let's swing our search to Ephesians 5:25 and read: "Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it." So there, Christ gave himself for the church.

    What does this mean? It means that Christ died for the church. Acts 20:28 Lamsa says that Christ purchased the Church of Christ with his own blood.

    Therefore, the people whom Paul was talking to were members of the church that Christ purchased with his own blood. Apostle Paul called these members Churches of Christ (Roms. 16:16).

    What further Biblical proof is there to show that these people were indeed members of the church? Eph. 2:15-16 tells us that Christ created in himself one new man that he might reconcile them both in one body through the cross. That one body is the church of which Christ is the head (col. 1:1:cool: .

    Hence, "faith in Christ" actually means receiving the messengers sent by God, listening to messengers sent by God, believing what these messengers sent by God preach, repenting and being converted (turning away from false beliefs and making the decision to enter the fold - John 10:9) and getting baptized into the church of Christ.

    This is what true "faith in Christ" is all about. Ignore one step and you have a "faith that is dead." The first three steps constitute "faith" and the last two steps constitute "works" that make "faith" perfect.

    Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means doing the will of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:41). That means you can enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means obeying Christ's teaching to "enter the fold through him" (John 10:9,7). That means you will be saved.

    Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means Christ dying for you (his body) as propitiation for your sins and becoming God's righteousness in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21) because he being the head can die for the sins of his body in accordance with God's righteousness regarding sin (Deut. 24:16).

    Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means you have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and has received adoption as son (Gal. 4:4-5) and as son, an heir of God and joint-heir with Christ (Rom. 8:17).

    Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means that God has delivered you from the power of darkness and has translated you to the kingdom of His son in whom there is redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14).

    Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means you are IN Christ in whom you have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Eph. 1:7).

    Becoming a member of the Church of Christ means you are IN Christ and you will meet Jesus in the air when he comes again on judgment day (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

    Would you call anyone a "cult" for sharing this "good news?"

    Ed
     
  6. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Whew! Good to know I am there...
     
  7. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    ZoneChaos,

    The true Church of Christ has an authorized messenger sent by God. She has only one God, the Father and only one Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6).

    Does your church have these unique characteristics?

    Ed
     
  8. savinggrc

    savinggrc Guest

    +0
    The church's only "authorized messenger" is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Great I AM. :)
     
  9. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Yep.
     
  10. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    savinggrc,

    You say that Christ is the only authorized messenger of your church. How come you don't believe what he says that he is a man and the Father is the only true God?

    How come you don't believe the importance of the church in salvation?

    Ed
     
  11. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    ed, Christ says that you only need to believe in him to be saved. :)
     
  12. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    LouisBooth,

    Please read the verses very well LB and find out if Jesus said "you only need to believe him to be saved."

    I believe Jesus also said: "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." (Mark 16:16).

    Jesus also said: "I am the door. If anyone enters in by me he shall be saved." (John 10:9).

    Jesus further said: "Not everyone who says to me ,'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my father in heaven." (Matt. 7:21)

    Ed
     
  13. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    First, lets address your verses...Mark 16:16..First of all most older manuscripts do NOT have Mark 16-20 so basing docterine on this is NOT smart. Second of all This verse says that those that do not believe will be condemened indicating belief is the only requirement. You left out 1. context and 2. the rest of the verse.

    John 10:9 ..well that says nothing about baptism..just that it is only through christ you can be saved. I agree. But if you look eariler in 9:35 what does he ask the man.."Do you believe.." not are you baptised..:lol:

    Now Mat 7:21 You are missing context. Here he is talking about judging a tree by its fruit. That I agree with. You can assume a person is a christian or not be the way they live (ie their fruits) BUT you cannot and do not know his heart. So you cannont truely judge if he/she is saved or not. Check verses 13-23 for context (which you again left out).

    Okay..now some verses about faith..any book you want to look at specifically? Lets start with Mat since it is first in the cannon...If you look in chapter 9..why does he heal these people..FAITH;) When in chapter 14 Peter was sinking why was he sinking..little faith ;) Okay..lets dig on the issue. You want a specific verse that says faith saves..if you take the bible as a whole it clearly says that but you want more..okay..check this verse then :

    Romans 4:1-10 These verses say that Abramham was considered righteous before circumcision according to verse 10..why..his faith ;) For this very reason (faith alone saves) Paul wrote to Galatia. the whole book talks about faith alone saves..Is that enough or are you still not willing to believe the truth?
     
  14. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Reason dictates that anyone who does not believe is not baptized. Therefore he will not be saved. If belief is the only requirement, why did the apostles baptize after their listeners believed (Acts 2:41, 47; 16:30-32)?

    John 10:9 is about entering the flock or church in order to be saved. No one can be added into a church without baptism. That was true during Jesus' time and that's still true during these last days. Just because John 9:35 does not mention baptism does not mean that baptism is not necessary. Jesus says in Mark 16:16 that he whop believes and is baptized will be saved. John 9:35 cannot be taken alone and make Mark 16:16 false.

    Again, we see the devil blinding you by making you think context instead of you thinking like a babe and believing what Jesus is clearly saying.

    Anyone who does not do the will of God the Father will not enter the kingdom of heaven. By this verse alone we can know who will and who will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Tell me how chapter 2 of James align with these verses you mentioned. Apostle James said "man is justified by works and not by faith only" (James 2:24). Read James 2:21 Louis. Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar. And verse 26 Louis. For as the body without spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

    This is the truth Louis. There is nothing in the Bible which says that man is justified by faith alone. You are being deceived into adding the word "alone" to the words of God and that's a violation of His command.

    Ed
     
  15. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Reason dictates that anyone who does not believe is not baptized. Therefore he will not be saved. If belief is the only requirement, why did the apostles baptize after their listeners believed (Acts 2:41, 47; 16:30-32)? "

    Nope..reason doesn't dictate that when MANY times it is listed that it is only by believing we are saved. The reason they did it is because that was a cultural thing. :)

    "No one can be added into a church without baptism. "

    Umm..doesn't say that in John 10:9.

    "John 9:35 cannot be taken alone and make Mark 16:16 false."

    :lol: John 9:35 isn't false and I'm not saying that. It DOESN'T say that baptism is NESSISARY. There are more verses that say it is by faith or belief alone you are saved. Do you want to have a contest :lol: you come up with your verses that say in it that baptism is NESSISARY and I'll get the ones that say it is just faith. ;)

    'Anyone who does not do the will of God the Father will not enter the kingdom of heaven. By this verse alone we can know who will and who will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

    You are leaving out context of those verses Ed. Paul himself says that he does things he knows he shouldn't do and does the thing he hates most..does that mean he's not in heaven ed?

    "Tell me how chapter 2 of James align with these verses you mentioned. "

    Sure Ed, I can do that. First lets see who James is talking to..In the opening of the letter we can CLEARLY see he is talking to christians. See verse 2 and 19..he says brothers..He is talking to people that are ALREADY Christians. The theme of the book is summed up in chapter 1 verse 22..do not merely listen but do. He is saying to CHRISTIANS, live like you're supposed to. That's what James is about. Its NOT saying that if you don't work for your salvation you can't have it. CONTEXT ed, CONTEXT.

    "This is the truth Louis. There is nothing in the Bible which says that man is justified by faith alone. You are being deceived into adding the word "alone" to the words of God and that's a violation of His command."

    and nothing says that it you have to be baptised to be saved ed ;) let me list some verses for you...

    Hebrews chapter 11
    Ephesians Chapter 2:8
    Galatians 2:15
    Romans 3:25-26
    Romans chapter 4
    Should I go on?
     
  16. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Friends,

    Let's go back to the topic at hand. I say that the manner of receiving Jesus taught by pastors and evangelists is false because there is no scripture that supports it.

    Therefore, anyone who thinks or believes that he has received Jesus in a false manner has not been given the right to become a child of God.

    If anyone does not agree to the Biblical way of receiving Jesus. can he show scripture to support the manner of receiving Jesus as taught by pastors or evangelists instead of evading he issue by talking about other topics?

    Ed
     
  17. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    ed, this is a self-defeating statement. One can not not agree with a biblical way if they use a biblical way to not agree with it.

    I think though what you are looking for is this: an interpretation. You interpret it one way (which in my opinion you leave out a few key scriptures), and I interpret the scriptures regarding salvation in another way (taking all scriptures into account and not just a few).
     
  18. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Josephus,

    I have outlined what I believe is the Biblical way of receiving Jesus and providing scriptures to support my belief.

    Most people believe otherwise, that is, receiving Jesus by inviting him into his heart and accepting Christ as personal Lord and savior through what most pastors and evngelist call the "sinner's prayer."

    What I'm asking is for people to defend this belief by citing scripture to support it instead of evading the issue by going into other nonrelated topics.

    I'm sure this is not too much to ask for.

    Ed
     
  19. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    And people have stated scripture, myself included:

    Zechariah 12:10

    Scriptures in Galations, Romans,

    Genesis chapter 1

    "I AM" verses in John

    you have what you are looking for, but you are refusing to consider it. If you don't consider something as someone's answer, you will never find what you say you are looking for.
     
  20. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Josephus,

    How can I accept your Biblical proofs when these are only your interpretations that can also be interpreted abnother way? For example, "I AM". You interpret to mean that Jesus is God. I interpret it to mean thatJesus is Christ. The truth remains that Jesus is a man and theFather is the only true God.

    Regarding Zech. 12:10, my vesion of the verse is stated differently from yours. Again, this doesn't support your interpretation that Jesus is also God.

    Ed
     
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