Recapitulation, Satisfaction, and Peter Abelard

[Fervent]

It's that justice must be served; sin doesn't fit with the holiness of God or the innocence and goodness of His creation. So something must be done and we can't do it; we're stuck in our sin, in our alienation from Him; we're lost. So He does it for us.

His act of righteousness as a human shows us that humans are capable of it and reconciles us to Himself as we then respond and turn to Him, entering a union that now affords us the ability to begin to live the righteousness ourselves that is intrinsic to fellowship with God. Justice restored- rather than merely imputed and ignored. The essence of the New Covenant and the basis of man's justice is union with God. Anything apart from or outside of that relationship is ipso facto, sin.

While it's popular to downplay retribution in ideas of justice, it's clear that such a thing is part of justice with the references to God avenging. For me the issue with satisfaction theories is they place a need in God, and require a change in His disposition. Of course, the most sophisticated versions shift this need and change around so its not so easily placed in His being but ultimately that just seems like a shell game to me. As far as retribution in justice goes, and if anyone is satisfied, it is those who place their trust in God's avenging power as Christ steps in to be wronged far beyond any human has suffered while asking for forgiveness for the very people who are wronging Him.

 

[fhansen]

While it's popular to downplay retribution in ideas of justice, it's clear that such a thing is part of justice with the references to God avenging. For me the issue with satisfaction theories is they place a need in God, and require a change in His disposition. Of course, the most sophisticated versions shift this need and change around so its not so easily placed in His being but ultimately that just seems like a shell game to me. As far as retribution in justice goes, and if anyone is satisfied, it is those who place their trust in God's avenging power as Christ steps in to be wronged far beyond any human has suffered while asking for forgiveness for the very people who are wronging Him.

How about if God was simply preparing and waiting on man until the point where we might be able to simply accept the fact that He was always on our side, that He always loved man lavishly, that He was never in competition with us even if we were in competition with Him? No change in His disposition, just a change in our perspective of Him. Now we know that God is love, now we no longer conceive of Him with a "distorted image" as it's been taught: distant, angry, aloof in His superiority, "jealous of His prerogatives". He never abandoned man; He's been waiting on us to come around. Now we're able, even if just barely, to know the true God, as Jesus comes to reveal Him to us.

 

[Fervent]

How about if God was simply preparing and waiting on man until the point where we might be able to simply accept the fact that He was always on our side, that He always loved man lavishly, that He was never in competition with us even if we were in competition with Him? No change in His disposition, just a change in our perspective of Him. Now we know that God is love, now we no longer conceive of Him with a "distorted image" as it's been taught: distant, angry, aloof in His superiority, "jealous of His prerogatives". He never abandoned man; He's been waiting in us to come around. Now we're able, even if just barely, to know the true God, as Jesus comes to reveal Him to us.

That sounds to me like it would run the risk of skirting Marcion's heresy.

 

[fhansen]

That sounds to me like it would run the risk of skirting Marcion's heresy.

I don't think so though. Rather than denying God as previously revealed, Jesus more fully reveals Him. His sacrifice acknowledges the need for dealing with sin while simultaneously revealing the absolute love of God for man despite his sin. Whether or not we even care enough to respond to His love is another story

 

[Andrewn]

How does the idea of purification by Jesus' blood tie into theories of atonement?

Heb 1:3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to worship the living God!

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the sketches of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves need better sacrifices than these.

 

[fhansen]

Admittedly a bit speculative, but here goes:

How does the idea of purification by Jesus' blood tie into theories of atonement?

Heb 1:3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to worship the living God!

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the sketches of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves need better sacrifices than these.

Reconciliation with God, by establishing the union with God that man was made for, means the actual purification of man that the law could never accomplish. The price Jesus paid for bringing the light into the world was His own life. Unlike Adam, He perfectly obeyed God in every way during His life on earth including the death He must suffer to pay for the sins that man committed beginning with and due to that disobedience and the alienation from God that it resulted in.

Man cannot retain moral integrity or wholeness apart from God, not to mention the deep and lasting happiness, peace, satisfaction, etc that we were made to desire and to have. Sin, simply, results in death; it's inconsistent with goodness, with everything that God is. It's certainly never been His intention for us. Separation from God is already death. Jesus took care of both for us, sin and death. Sin can no longer condemn us to death because we now have the union with God, as Christ always had, that can overcome sin by its nature, under grace, by the Spirit. Again, that union/communion/direct relationship, entered into via faith, is the primary difference between the old and new covenants.

Our wills are still involved throughout, however, so that we may not want reconciliation with God-we may not open the door when He knocks, or keep it open to Him later on. It’s a work of His that we participate in as we truly remain in Him-and therefore He in us. He won’t abandon us-but we can abandon Him-and return to death, not interested in purification, not interested in Him.

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:1-4

"Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Rom 8:12-13

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

 

[Andrewn]

Man cannot retain moral integrity or wholeness apart from God, not to mention the deep and lasting happiness, peace, satisfaction, etc that we were made to desire and to have. Sin, simply, results in death; it's inconsistent with goodness, with everything that God is. It's certainly never been His intention for us. Separation from God is already death. Jesus took care of both for us, sin and death. Sin can no longer condemn us to death because we now have the union with God, as Christ always had, that can overcome sin by its nature, under grace, by the Spirit. Again, that union/communion/direct relationship, entered into via faith, is the primary difference between the old and new covenants.

Heb 1:3 implies that Christ making purification for sins was a major goal/accomplishment of his incarnation.

Heb 9:14 explains that that purification was specifically for our conscience/consciousness.

Heb 9:23 says that Christ's blood purified the heavenly things.

What are the heavenly things? Is it the same thing as the conscience? Was the temple a sketch of human's conscience, viewed as the microcosm? How is the conscience purified by blood?

Does the book of Hebrews provide a different/complementary view of atonement?

 

[fhansen]

Heb 1:3 implies that Christ making purification for sins was a major goal/accomplishment of his incarnation.

Heb 9:14 explains that that purification was specifically for our conscience/consciousness.

Heb 9:23 says that Christ's blood purified the heavenly things.

What are the heavenly things? Is it the same thing as the conscience? Was the temple a sketch of human's conscience, viewed as the microcosm? How is the conscience purified by blood?

Does the book of Hebrews provide a different/complementary view of atonement?

More thoughts: It does have to do with our consciences. Christ gave us direct access to the Holy of Holies: to God. Related to this, I believe, Augustine said, "I found thee not, O Lord, without, because I erred in seeking without that which was within." Some teachings from our catechism:

433 The name of the Savior God was invoked only once in the year by the high priest in atonement for the sins of Israel, after he had sprinkled the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies with the sacrificial blood. The mercy seat was the place of God's presence. When St. Paul speaks of Jesus whom "God put forward as an expiation by his blood", he means that in Christ's humanity "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself." Rom 3:25; 2 Cor 5:19.

1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man's most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47

1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

"Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ."

1779 It is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself in order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:
"Return to your conscience, question it. . . . Turn inward, brethren, and in everything you do, see God as your witness."

It's a matter of grace working in conjunction with the human will:

"If we claim to have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 6-9

"And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure. Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness. But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:3-8

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14

 

[Fervent]

Heb 1:3 implies that Christ making purification for sins was a major goal/accomplishment of his incarnation.

Heb 9:14 explains that that purification was specifically for our conscience/consciousness.

Heb 9:23 says that Christ's blood purified the heavenly things.

What are the heavenly things? Is it the same thing as the conscience? Was the temple a sketch of human's conscience, viewed as the microcosm? How is the conscience purified by blood?

Does the book of Hebrews provide a different/complementary view of atonement?

Given the book of Hebrews reliance on OT themes and views it seems to me we must first have an accurate view of what the temple sacrifices accomplished. In my studies I have concluded that the principal aim of the temple sacrifices was to cleanse a stain that was concrete in nature rather than an abstraction. Sin in the OT was far more associated with a ritual uncleanliness than with the idea of guilt, and so what the sacrifices were removing was a spiritual defect caused by sin that had a deleterious effect that was concrete in nature. As the blood of goats and bulls cleansed the implements of the temple, so too Christ's blood cleanses the flesh of man which has been stained with sin. At the same time, sin defiles our conscience because while we may be penitent the consequences of our past sin remain in tact. Yet the shedding of Christ's blood contains a promise of a life in which that consequence not only is removed but serves as a point of blessing. Our consciences are cleansed because our repentance is no longer an empty contrition but a concrete, physical remission of the cancer that's been eating at us.