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Right back at you.Do you serve your gods, or do they simply serve your purpose?
Great. I won't give my life up as I know my Gods want me to live it, and I trust them, too.I willingly give my life up, I don't wnat it back, and I trust my Father.
Rae said:Great. I won't give my life up as I know my Gods want me to live it, and I trust them, too.
Right back at me? What? Im telling you that i will serve my God if it costs me my life. This question was answered before you asked it. Which is why i asked you the question. Answer?Rae said:Right back at you.
Rae said:Great. I won't give my life up as I know my Gods want me to live it, and I trust them, too.
IgnatiusOfAntioch said:Many of the first through fourth century faithful actually looked forward to dying for the Faith and earning the eternal crown of martyrdom. The early Church actually grew faster during times of persecution so much so that the blood of the martyrs was the seed of the Faith and their persecutors marvelled at this testamony to their faith. It is said that Ignatius of Antioch could hear Christ calling him as he rushed forward with enthusiasm to the lions in the colosseum. I can only hope that Christ would grant me that kind of Faith and courage if I ever have the opportunity to die for Him.
My comment wasnt directed toward anyone, it was a statement of personal testimony.jesusfreak3786 said:And how exactly do you think that being a christian is slacking off in the carnal life?
Yet they do. We all do. It is how we mentally find our place in our own image of some social hierarchy. Much like the pack animal finding its place in the pack, people do it too.jesusfreak3786 said:Christians are not supposed to judge either way.
joebudda said:My comment wasnt directed toward anyone, it was a statement of personal testimony.
Such a belief creates the condition to not care much about life, both in the personal and other peoples lives. It creates the condition where making oneself better off or happier is trivial compared to this supposed other life. Such a belief can be damaging and dangerous when the only life we know for sure we have isnt as important as some fairytale.
Yet they do. We all do. It is how we mentally find our place in our own image of some social hierarchy. Much like the pack animal finding its place in the pack, people do it too.
From my perspective it is the Christians that are the most judgmental. Being my father is gay and I have three gay cousins I hear more then my fair share of overly judgmental Christians.
So you can belief all you wish that Christians are not suppose to judge, but from by perspective it seems to be more of a want it to be then what the reality actually is.
joebudda said:My comment wasnt directed toward anyone, it was a statement of personal testimony.
Such a belief creates the condition to not care much about life, both in the personal and other peoples lives. It creates the condition where making oneself better off or happier is trivial compared to this supposed other life. Such a belief can be damaging and dangerous when the only life we know for sure we have isnt as important as some fairytale.
Yet they do. We all do. It is how we mentally find our place in our own image of some social hierarchy. Much like the pack animal finding its place in the pack, people do it too.
From my perspective it is the Christians that are the most judgmental. Being my father is gay and I have three gay cousins I hear more then my fair share of overly judgmental Christians.
So you can belief all you wish that Christians are not suppose to judge, but from by perspective it seems to be more of a want it to be then what the reality actually is.
Sharing my thoughts.jesusfreak3786 said:If that wasen't directed towards any body, what was the point?
Once again I wasnt directing it toward anyone but explaining my interpretation of such a belief.jesusfreak3786 said:So it was directed towards the poeple with belief A.K.A. christians, why deny that? Christains are called to be ministers to others, that may seem limited to you, but what you might consider important(exp. possestions) chritians find trivial.
Because we do. You are doing it now by judging my understanding.jesusfreak3786 said:How do you know that all judge? I can see how it would be hard for you to understand, in order to be capable of not judging someone you need Gods grace for such.
Once again you are judging who is and isnt a Christian. By your own definition that isnt very Christian, is it?jesusfreak3786 said:Judgeing a person and condeming a sin, are like night and day, not the same in any respect. If indeed you have seen someone judge that calls themselves a christian they decieve them selves, just so you don't get confused that statment was regarding the act of judgeing, not the person who did it.
As you so eloquently show in this very post.jesusfreak3786 said:christians struggle with the sinful nature of the human being just as much, if not more than anybody.
I can't believe someone actually responded in the affirmative to this. I actually shuddered when I read that response.wowbagger said:Under NO circumstances? Do you really believe you could do that? It sounds pretty selfish if you ask me. What if:
You are commanded to recant or your 3 young daughters will be violently raped and tortured in front of you until you do. Maybe for weeks (until they are certain to die from trauma and exhaustion). Imagine their desperate pleas for help looking at you to save them from unimaginable pain and agony.
What do you do?
If you really think you would not recant, I don't think you are human. In fact, I think you would spend some time in jail for such a thing.
Lokisdottir said:I can't believe someone actually responded in the affirmative to this. I actually shuddered when I read that response.
If a loved one was under threat, I'd recant immediately. It's only if my own life is in danger that I'd refuse.
But then again, I also have other loyalties to consider -- not least to my fiancée and parents, who would be heartbroken. So perhaps refusing would not be the best idea.
Maybe I'd just recant falsely, get to a safe place (preferably armed), and recant my recantation while laughing in their faces.
joebudda said:Sharing my thoughts.
Once again I wasnt directing it toward anyone but explaining my interpretation of such a belief.
I was wondering do you always assume knowledge of others such as what they consider to be important?
Because we do. You are doing it now by judging my understanding.
Once again you are judging who is and isnt a Christian. By your own definition that isnt very Christian, is it?
As you so eloquently show in this very post.
Lokisdottir said:I can't believe someone actually responded in the affirmative to this. I actually shuddered when I read that response.
If a loved one was under threat, I'd recant immediately. It's only if my own life is in danger that I'd refuse.
But then again, I also have other loyalties to consider -- not least to my fiancée and parents, who would be heartbroken. So perhaps refusing would not be the best idea.
Maybe I'd just recant falsely, get to a safe place (preferably armed), and recant my recantation while laughing in their faces.
Uh, since when is it a crime to change one's mind? I don't have any doubt; I just haven't truly made up my mind on this issue yet. That post was me writing down my thoughts as they came to me. What--are you going to call me a "flip flopper"?]Fa||eN[ said:Thats nice you almost 180* on your position in just 1 post, "The doubt is strong with this one". Your not keeping in mind the motive behind the person asking you to recant.
Lokisdottir said:Uh, since when is it a crime to change one's mind? I don't have any doubt; I just haven't truly made up my mind on this issue yet. That post was me writing down my thoughts as they came to me. What--are you going to call me a "flip flopper"?
And since I highly doubt this hypothetical situation will ever arise, it isn't as though I need to hurry and make a choice. To be honest, I don't know what I would do. I'd like to think that I would not recant, but I hadn't considered the effect on my loved ones. To make a sacrifice out of love for my Gods would be the noble thing to do, but not if it means making others suffer as well.
You forget that I am not a Christian. My Gods would not punish or damn me if I were to recant. There's no salvation at stake here. It's a matter of honor and loyalty. But because I am loyal not just to my Gods but also to my loved ones, the issue becomes more complex.
Wow, your posts refute themselves, your debating is almost schizophrenic in nature. The idea of the entire thread is exactly if it is a crime to change one's mind, hense the recanting.Lokisdottir said:Uh, since when is it a crime to change one's mind? I don't have any doubt; I just haven't truly made up my mind on this issue yet. That post was me writing down my thoughts as they came to me. What--are you going to call me a "flip flopper"?
There is nothing hypothetical about recanting ones faith.Lokisdottir said:And since I highly doubt this hypothetical situation will ever arise, it isn't as though I need to hurry and make a choice. To be honest, I don't know what I would do. I'd like to think that I would not recant, but I hadn't considered the effect on my loved ones. To make a sacrifice out of love for my Gods would be the noble thing to do, but not if it means making others suffer as well.
Your loyal only to yourself as your gods are merely subservant to your selfservice.Lokisdottir said:You forget that I am not a Christian. My Gods would not punish or damn me if I were to recant. There's no salvation at stake here. It's a matter of honor and loyalty. But because I am loyal not just to my Gods but also to my loved ones, the issue becomes more complex.
]Fa||eN[ said:First off, What the ____ is wrong with YOU for making up such a graphic hypothetical? Someone might need some jail time alright.
God and His ways and promises are beyond your logic and reasoning pattern.
wowbagger said:I was trying to think of a worst case scenario, where any compassionate human would do ANYTHING to protect their kids.
I guess I was wrong. Some people really believe that a few measly untrue words are worth letting loved ones suffer. I am shocked, though I don't really believe that anyone would really not recant in that scenario- unless they are mentally whacked.
I would recant anything they liked. Sell my soul. Profess undying love for satan. Anything for them not to hurt my babies. They are JUST WORDS!
Ever hear a little thing called "stream of consciousness"? I'm not trying to convince anybody here, since I don't expect a Christian to ever hold the same view as me. I'm merely presenting my thoughts as they occur to me so that one can better truly understand what my feelings are, and in this case, my thoughts tend to conflict. Anyway, I fail to see how the paragraph you quoted is self-contradictory. I said I'm having a difficult time making up my mind -- how is that schizophrenic?]Fa||eN[ said:Wow, your posts refute themselves, your debating is almost schizophrenic in nature.
But one would NOT be changing one's mind. One would merely be lying by offering a false recantation. If you can truly give up your God or Gods with a few mere words, you probably had little loyalty to begin with.The idea of the entire thread is exactly if it is a crime to change one's mind, hense the recanting.
You're right, and I can tell you (with no flip-flopping!) that I would not recant except under dire circumstances, which may or may not include the saving of my own life. As I've said over and over, I have not decided what I would do in that particular circumstance.There is nothing hypothetical about recanting ones faith.
Bull. It is my loyalty, both to my Gods and to my family and loved ones, that causes this conflict in the first place. To whom should I fulfill that loyalty if it comes down to a choice between them? To a Christian like you, the choice may seem obvious. But my religion is one that highly stresses the bonds of kinship.Your loyal only to yourself as your gods are merely subservant to your selfservice.
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