Wonder why it is that I have NEVER seen this argument including v.21, which is part of the same admonition ... ?
"Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."
If marriage works the way it is supposed to, with BOTH parties dong their part, this discussion wouldn't even come up.
It's not too many happily married, secure, women who would rebel against a husband who was sacrificing himself for her as Christ did for us. But these kinds of diatribes are actually counterproductive, IMO, and demonstrate a warped view of submission. It's not meant to install the husband as a dictator.
After all, God desires that all men submit freely to Him in love, but He does not usurp our free will in the process.
Yes, there is a feminist agenda out there, along with all kinds of other misguided agendas. But painting all women with that brush, especially when you have no position of authority over them, well ... doesn't seem either helpful or fair.
Neither Christian households nor gatherings of believers ought to be motivated by power struggles. We should all serve one another, give place and honor to others who are, after all, made in the image of God, and prefer others before ourselves.
OP. What do you suppose should be done when a MAN refuses to do HIS part? In other words, if a man is choosing not to work and not to manage the household what should be done?
so does that mean that if a man cannot or will not provide and defend that the family should just die?Just like you can't force a rebellious woman to change, you can't force a rebellious husband to change. Women manage the household. Men provide and defend.
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Really? I think it goes both ways.Followed by gender-specific calls for submission.
You're correct, and there are some men not doing what they are supposed to be doing, but it seems obvious to me that modern women are far more rebellious to God's commands toward their spouse.
I hear this all the time. Personally, I don't feel that most women would submit to any man's authority, as most are of a reprobate mind. Therefore, they put unrealistic expectations on a man, claiming that "if this man loved me the way Christ loved the church", I'd submit. It doesn't work that way. A woman is to submit to her husband in all things. She is to obey him. God's word says so much. Modern women, even many, perhaps a majority that attend church, claim that they'd never submit, or they claim they'd submit if he is worth submitting to. God tells you frankly to submit. The man doesn't have to pat your ego and be all lovey-dovey dough-eyed with you to show you that he loves you, or for you to support him. Most men do such if they are respected. Women who don't respect their husbands by following his lead have unhappy husbands who have lessened affection for their spouse. If women would submit, many men would be more likely to feel and show them love. Yes, a man should love his wife through it all. Yet, it isn't men who have subjugated the social order and are now acting like the other gender. It is women. Therefore, I feel women share more of the blame for the current state of affairs.
Women and men have freewill in their relationships, but that doesn't make their actions godly. Similarly, mankind has freewill to not follow Christ, but that doesn't make it the right decision.
Every Christian has the authority to call out sin. Women are not immune from being called out.
When wives fail to submit they are involved in a power struggle for control of the relationship, showing their rebellion for God's command.
can I ask where God demands our children not be placed in day care?
Since we are being so specific down to every syllable according to your ideas of what the Bible states, please tell me where women are strictly forbidden to place their children in day care.
And if you will, please explain to me where it says women should only wear a dress or skirt? Since jeans are specifically tailored to fit women and are even designed to flatter and fit the female form, they are technically womens clothes. So please tell me why women are only allowed to wear dresses and skirts and no other clothes made for women. And please make sure it specifically states dresses and skirts and not just "women dress like women" as we know pants are also made for women.
And while answering this, tell me how you are able to say that no man can be perfect for a woman because they all fall short, but women must be perfect or they will go to the lake of fire? Where does God specify this double standard?
He doesn't.
You sure remind me of the Pharisees in the Bible, more concerned about tradition over Gods will.
so does that mean that if a man cannot or will not provide and defend that the family should just die?
I don't wear men's underwear or jock straps. Do you dress like Jesus did? If you don't you have no room to talk.
There is no forbidding of placing children in daycare, per se, but there is a command for a woman to keep the home. With young children, there is little ability for a woman to clean the house properly, fold and hang-up laundry, cook meals for the family, etc. and still work a job. Not feasible for most people. The home would be neglected in most cases. Therefore, women who are choosing to work and place their kids in daycare are not only often neglecting their homes but also their children who need the nurturing relationship of a mother, especially in the formative years.
If you don't like the truth, it is what it is. Jeans and PANTS were specifically made for MEN. For thousands of years men have worn pants, women have not. Have you ever heard the phrase, "She thinks she wears the pants in the relationship". This specifically is used to point out a woman who is behaving like a man, with the metaphor of pants to control of the relationship. Plus, women never wore pants until the 1960s, for the most part.
Jeans and pants ARE men's clothing styles. Dresses and skirts are women's clothing styles. Today, a random sample of women that I see are a bunch of people wanting to dress like a man. I'd say that 90% are choosing to dress in styles that are related to traditional male dress.
A little flare, a little accent, a little slightly different cut doesn't make the clothes really feminine. It's like putting lipstick on a pig and calling it a woman.
No man or woman can be perfect, for we all sin. That said, when you sin, you are to repent of the sin. Women who constantly are denying what God has called them out to do are not in a state of repentance.
I think it's time you read the Bible a little more.
but God also expects people to help themselves and if a man is not going to step up then someone has to.Look, if a man is not doing his job and work, then I don't think that God's going to want the family to starve. In most cases, I'd hope that people would help such a family.
I could write the same type of posts for us as husbands. Are we loving our wives as Christ loved the church? Really? Who must be the first to get back in order?If they are, I haven't heard it. I'm a regular church attender, have been to many conferences and/or praise gatherings, and have watched a good bit of Christian programming on television, I've hardly heart it. However, I'm not going to refute what you claim to have noticed.
Okay, it's not 75%, but it is close. It's 69% of the time.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...hy-women-are-more-likely-to-initiate-divorce/
Which churches might those be? I could see the Amish, or perhaps some small denomination, but for the vast majority of churches, this is not the case.
Do you realize why the whole "log in your own eye first" is mentioned? It's because if you are doing the same thing that others are doing, it makes you a hypocrite. It's also a poor witness. It weakens your testimony and unfortunately many will not listen to your message.
In this case, we are dealing with commands given by God to women, so this can't apply to me, so the "log" comment is not valid.
However, you posted a comment about berating women.
Where might that be?
It is loving as Jesus loved to point out sin. Otherwise, people could die without being made right with God.
Look, if a man is not doing his job and work, then I don't think that God's going to want the family to starve. In most cases, I'd hope that people would help such a family.
Let me asks you this if you feel that old testament law still applies. Do you wear mixed clothes say cotton and some other materical? Do you follow all of the diet laws that they had? Do you maintain facial hair? Have you ever WORKED on Saturday? There are over 600 laws I could asks about.There are men's styles and women's styles. What I wear is completely male clothes. If you're not wearing female clothes, don't get mad at me for following God's command with regard to clothing.
Really? I think it goes both ways.
There is just something about how that is worded that is condescending. You are saying women should act a certain way to receive affection from their husbands. If a man is fully submitted to Christ, do you think he would have that attitude? Did Christ wait for us to deserve the sacrifice HE made? Loving your wife means loving her as Christ loved us, which is not demanding and prideful.
Again, you do not have the authority to call out another man's wife or to step into his marriage. Not unless godly counsel is being sought from you. (And hopefully you would offer compassionate and considerate advice, and pray for the wisdom to say the right things). You have absolutely no idea what goes on in someone else's marriage or family, and another man's wife is not obligated to submit to you and your choice to "call her out."
And when husbands fail to submit to Christ they disrespect and dishonour their wives (and God). It's a two way street. And the woman should not receive ALL the blame.
Let's see:
More women choose not to submit to their husbands than to submit.
Most men would die for their wife.
More men following God's Command
Large percentage of women working out of the home and not keeping the home.
Most men working a job to provide for the family
More men following God's Command
Most women wearing men's style of clothing
Nearly all men wearing men's style clothing
More men following God's Command.
I think a man should love his wife regardless if she doesn't submit to him, or even treats him like dirt, because Christ commands it. My point, however, was to illustrate why some men don't feel love toward their spouse; it's because they are not respected or submitted to.
If you can't support it from the Bible, then it's a man-made doctrine.
I never claimed that women should receive all the blame, but it is apparent that women are responsible for a majority of problems with the state of marriages.
People say they believe in trinity .. but do not apply trinity when it comes to relationships . it is unfortunate.
How do you apply the trinity to human relationships?People say they believe in trinity .. but do not apply trinity when it comes to relationships . it is unfortunate.
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