Reasons To Believe...wow

[vossler]

Cute story and dramatization!

And yet that is no good reason to reject germ theory or gravity. So why should it be a good reason to reject evolution?

Well how about this, neither germ theory or gravity are blatant attempts to undermine the Word of God.

 

[random_guy]

Cute story and dramatization!

Well how about this, neither germ theory or gravity are blatant attempts to undermine the Word of God.

So a belief is anything you don't agree with, and that you (and Creationists like you) think undermines the word of God. I guess so is geology, cosmology, and astronomy are also beliefs. You keep thinking in your own little world that all these sciences are beliefs, and the rest of the world (including the schools, universities, research institutions) will continue to ignore you tirades against science.

 

[shernren]

Cute story and dramatization!

Well how about this, neither germ theory or gravity are blatant attempts to undermine the Word of God.

Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
(James 5:14-15 NIV)

Germ theory tells me that James was wrong, doesn't it? At least that's what it says to some people. If you remember LionOfGod, he once cited an article that used this verse, and others, to "show" that modern medicine is really a sham designed to "excuse people from taking responsibility of their own bodies".

 

[vossler]

No, that's wrong: the descent of humans from earlier life forms is part of the scientific theory, and is supported by a great deal of data from several fields. You may not like the science, but don't kid yourself -- you are indeed attacking a science, not a belief system. Now, what was this evidence against evolution that you were talking about?

Hey it's a pretty neat theory, one that I would expect man to come up with. It's based on logic and inferences that man, in his limited capacity, without devine illumination would naturally develop. So I won't argue that there isn't evidence for what you purport, there's probably lots of it.

You could have truckloads of evidence and that still doesn't make it right, especially when God Himself says otherwise. Unfortunately, when one believes in the paradigm they've developed, when anything comes forth that might weaken your belief it is natural that one attacks the source of the perceived misinformation. If that source is God's Word then those who claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior can't hardly attack his Word, at least not directly, so they attack those who use His Word.

So when people of faith claim the Bible states or supports something it clearly doesn't, they themselves have allowed they're own minds to beome idols of worship and through the process they supplant God's very Word through which they then develop their own belief systems.

As for the evidence you ask for. There are plenty of sources that can much better argue and support the evidence than I could or have the interest in doing. I'm sure you're well aware of most of them. You can take up your arguments with those who make the scientific claims, I'm not very interested in assimilating the amount of knowledge required to argue those points in detail. This has never been a discussion about science to me, but it has always been one about God and what He said.

 

[vossler]

Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
(James 5:14-15 NIV)

Germ theory tells me that James was wrong, doesn't it? At least that's what it says to some people. If you remember LionOfGod, he once cited an article that used this verse, and others, to "show" that modern medicine is really a sham designed to "excuse people from taking responsibility of their own bodies".

I don't recall that, but if I had seen it I would have told him a blanket statement like that is wrong. It certainly could be an excuse for not taking responsibility of your body, but to categorically state so, no the Word of God doesn't support that. I would be surprised of Lion of God intended that meaning to be conveyed!

 

[shernren]

I don't recall that, but if I had seen it I would have told him a blanket statement like that is wrong. It certainly could be an excuse for not taking responsibility of your body, but to categorically state so, no the Word of God doesn't support that. I would be surprised of Lion of God intended that meaning to be conveyed!

I couldn't track down that particular post (it was when I raised that spat over my sister taking antidepressants), but here's a good substitute.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=24265598&postcount=9

And I'm off for breakfast followed by Civilizations IV. I need a break. XD

 

[vossler]

So a belief is anything you don't agree with, and that you (and Creationists like you) think undermines the word of God. I guess so is geology, cosmology, and astronomy are also beliefs. You keep thinking in your own little world that all these sciences are beliefs, and the rest of the world (including the schools, universities, research institutions) will continue to ignore you tirades against science.

A belief is something that doesn't have complete knowledge or proof to support it. Evolution fits that category to a tee, so does Christianity for that matter. In my little world, as you like to put it, I will continue to fight for my beliefs and if the rest of the world wishes to ignore me then that's fine with me. God knows me and my heart is with Him.

 

[vossler]

I couldn't track down that particular post (it was when I raised that spat over my sister taking antidepressants), but here's a good substitute.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=24265598&postcount=9

And I'm off for breakfast followed by Civilizations IV. I need a break. XD

I must have been on a furlough during that time because I don't recall that topic. Still I looked at the post in question and can honestly say I don't even remotely see what your trying to say. Upon your return, I look forward to you enlightening me further.

 

[Smileyill]

The biggest problem I have w/ mainstream evolution is that it expects us to believe our ability to reason evolved...

But then I'm not a scientist or philosopher. I only have an AS (associates in science), a BA (in business) and 7mths left for a JD. Oh ya I have studied constitutional law...just a little bit.

 

[random_guy]

A belief is something that doesn't have complete knowledge or proof to support it. Evolution fits that category to a tee, so does Christianity for that matter. In my little world, as you like to put it, I will continue to fight for my beliefs and if the rest of the world wishes to ignore me then that's fine with me. God knows me and my heart is with Him.

Then all of science is nothing more than a belief since no theories in science have complete support or knowledge. If there was such a thing, there would be no more need to research it. However, we continue to refine our knowledge of gravity, evolution, and germ theory because of our incomplete knowledge.

 

[vossler]

Then all of science is nothing more than a belief since no theories in science have complete support or knowledge. If there was such a thing, there would be no more need to research it. However, we continue to refine our knowledge of gravity, evolution, and germ theory because of our incomplete knowledge.

Much of science is that way, but I don't have a problem with it because it isn't trying to change God's Word like evolution does. That's the only problem I've ever had with science, it's when it attempts to supercede the very Word of God.

 

[random_guy]

Much of science is that way, but I don't have a problem with it because it isn't trying to change God's Word like evolution does. That's the only problem I've ever had with science, it's when it attempts to supercede the very Word of God.

Exactly. You're against evolution because it goes against your belief of what God's Word is. Whether or not it's a science has no bearing on the issue. Why you keep saying it's a belief is beyond me. Maybe by calling it a belief, it makes it less "legitimate", but that's your belief. According to scientists, the people that define science, and nearly every single scientific association and education association, evolution is a science. I think it would be better communication if you just stated, you don't accept evolution because of your beliefs, not because it's a belief.

 

[theFijian]

Cute story and dramatization!

Well how about this, neither germ theory or gravity are blatant attempts to undermine the Word of God.

There really is nothing more that can be said when people are willfully ignorant and propogate blatant untruths. Very sad vossler, I would have hoped for better from you by now.

 

[Assyrian]

Well how about this, neither germ theory or gravity are blatant attempts to undermine the Word of God.

How about heliocentrism?

So when people of faith claim the Bible states or supports something it clearly doesn't, they themselves have allowed they're own minds to beome idols of worship and through the process they supplant God's very Word through which they then develop their own belief systems.

I read in a UK Christian Magazine of a conference where Phillip Johnson described Evolution as 'today's Babylonian idolatry' and seminar chairman Prof Andy McIntosh claimed "I believe there won’t be revival in this country until the Church repents of its acceptance of the idolatry of evolution". It was the ugliness that that slanderous accusation against fellow believers, as well as their abysmal lack of understanding of what idolatry means, that led me to TE.

I had been a YEC years before and read all the books, though I found when checked their scientific claims, they had a habit of falling apart. By that stage I was pretty much agnostic on origins. Science had a lot of evidence but it couldn't be proved, at the same time, if evolution had happened, it couldn't have happened without God.

But faced with the ugly bigotry I read in the magazine, I found I could no longer remain neutral. I got out my bible and started to read what it actually said. I was really surprised as I read through Gen 1 and it never actually said the world was created in six days. I read of great works of creation, followed by the evening of a new day, but with no indication of how long the works of creation took.

Then I remembered something about Hebrew days beginning in the evening, I looked it up and checked, and yes they did. That meant each evening and morning marked the beginning of a new day, rather than completing the day of the work that had gone before. The works of creation were separate from the evening and mornings! Gen 1 could be much longer than 6 days, In fact it had to be longer than six days because God created the heavens and the earth, and the Spirit of God brooded over the deep, before the six days even began. Not only that, I just couldn't imagine the Spirit of God having a quick brood and then getting on with the rest of creation.

 

[vossler]

Exactly. You're against evolution because it goes against your belief of what God's Word is. Whether or not it's a science has no bearing on the issue. Why you keep saying it's a belief is beyond me.

Because as I've stated it isn't a complete volume of knowledge. Maybe a proper definition of the word belief might help.

"confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof"​

 

[random_guy]

Because as I've stated it isn't a complete volume of knowledge. Maybe a proper definition of the word belief might help.

"confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof"​

Okay, then by your definition, all scientitic theories are also beliefs (gravity, atoms, etc...). No scientific theory contains a complete volume of knowledge. We can't even figure out what causes gravity (gravitons or bending of time-space). So your problem is actually with science, then?

 

[vossler]

How about heliocentrism?

What about it? Obviously a misinterpretation of Scripture that science was able to prove. Like I've said before, science isn't the enemy, people as unknowing agents of Satan are.

I read in a UK Christian Magazine of a conference where Phillip Johnson described Evolution as 'today's Babylonian idolatry' and seminar chairman Prof Andy McIntosh claimed "I believe there won’t be revival in this country until the Church repents of its acceptance of the idolatry of evolution". It was the ugliness that that slanderous accusation against fellow believers, as well as their abysmal lack of understanding of what idolatry means, that led me to TE.

Given just the two statements I can't find fault, but if they went on to make slanderous accusations against fellow believers then I would definitely see you point.

I had been a YEC years before and read all the books, though I found when checked their scientific claims, they had a habit of falling apart. By that stage I was pretty much agnostic on origins. Science had a lot of evidence but it couldn't be proved, at the same time, if evolution had happened, it couldn't have happened without God.

I'll give you that many scientists see creation science as an oxymoron and immediately dismiss it. Coming from their perspective or worldview that's understandable. I'll also say that from my limited scientific knowledge base it appears some creationists attempt to explain too many things scientifically as opposed to just saying they don't know. Yes, we're all fallible.

Then I remembered something about Hebrew days beginning in the evening, I looked it up and checked, and yes they did. That meant each evening and morning marked the beginning of a new day, rather than completing the day of the work that had gone before. The works of creation were separate from the evening and mornings! Gen 1 could be much longer than 6 days, In fact it had to be longer than six days because God created the heavens and the earth, and the Spirit of God brooded over the deep, before the six days even began. Not only that, I just couldn't imagine the Spirit of God having a quick brood and then getting on with the rest of creation.

So is it your contention that the days of Genesis were separated by large periods of time?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Well how about this, neither germ theory or gravity are blatant attempts to undermine the Word of God.

what about parts of the Bible that blame illness on demons, rather than microbes? What about the parts where things can fly? Mountaiuns casting themselves into the sea, spring to mind. Seem contrary to God literal word.

More so than evolution.

 

[Mallon]

What about it? Obviously a misinterpretation of Scripture that science was able to prove.

To this day, I've yet to understand why YECs accept this sort of brush-off in relation to geocentrism, but not in relation to the creation account.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

What Mallon said!