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Reasons To Believe...wow

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rmwilliamsll

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To this day, I've yet to understand why YECs accept this sort of brush-off in relation to geocentrism, but not in relation to the creation account.

there are a number of key issues where the hermeneutics of YECism is apparent and shows itself to be a defective way to interpret the Scriptures. flat earth, geocentric is one.
another is the issues of the Sabbath and Gen 1.

my personal favorite is the argument that the American Southern Christians used to justify slavery and the way they saw the liberation of slaves as the very end of Christian civilization is a better example then geocentricism even.

One, it is far more recent, but two, and more importantly the hermeneutic that created YECism is the same hermeneutic as defended slavery. and lastly, YECism is a social and cultural phenomena that arises out of this very same community: rural, american, southern, community under pressure from the greater culture outside of it. The problem is that most people are simply unaware and uninterested in the history of the southern defense of slavery, it has just been pushed down the proverbial memory hole and forgotten.

like the signature line of someone who posts often here.
there is not one single verse in the entire Bible condemning slavery.

but i've never seen a YECist talk about how these arguments penetrated his/her hard shell of literalism to make a difference. perhaps if former YECists would discuss more how they lost their YECist faith and why, we could see the effectiveness of different pathways in the discussion. Most of the YECists who speak about their experiences deconvert entirely from Christianity rather than to OEC or TE.
 
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shernren

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but i've never seen a YECist talk about how these arguments penetrated his/her hard shell of literalism to make a difference. perhaps if former YECists would discuss more how they lost their YECist faith and why, we could see the effectiveness of different pathways in the discussion. Most of the YECists who speak about their experiences deconvert entirely from Christianity rather than to OEC or TE.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=27417477&postcount=26

Then again, I think my "conversion" was more a conversion from bad science to good science initially. I'm scientifically inclined and my first motivation to go into TEism was scientific. Having said that, Scripturality was a main problem for me at the start.

While I was sitting on the fence, I remember I would occasionally rebut creationists saying that the scientific evidence sure looked like the world was old and life evolved, whatever actually happened. I guess that over time the "whatever actually happened" part (an Omphalos argument) started to seem so ridiculous to me that eventually I dropped it.

If you want to put it into a neat box, I just didn't see why Scripture should conflict with reality.
 
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Jase

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What about it? Obviously a misinterpretation of Scripture that science was able to prove. Like I've said before, science isn't the enemy, people as unknowing agents of Satan are.
And who determines what is a misinterpretation and what isn't? Martin Luther was a geocentrist. Why is your opinion, that the verses lending to the idea of a geocentric universe misinterpretations, and Martin Luther's opinion is wrong?

Do you also believe the Earth has a solid dome above it with the stars placed inside the dome? Genesis says it does. Do you dare undermine the word of God by not accepting that the Earth has a solid dome above it?

You're being inconsistent and intellectually dishonest Vossler. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
 
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vossler

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And who determines what is a misinterpretation and what isn't? Martin Luther was a geocentrist. Why is your opinion, that the verses lending to the idea of a geocentric universe misinterpretations, and Martin Luther's opinion is wrong?
I think we can all agree there are some things in scripture that are not always clear to us mortal men, even with the Holy Spirit living inside us. Some things are revealed later as being different than what was first thought. In this case it makes no difference to me if we live in a geocentric world or a heliocentric one. This happens to be one of those things, no big deal, it wasn't a doctrinal issue. What is interesting is how many people wish to make it one. :scratch:
Do you also believe the Earth has a solid dome above it with the stars placed inside the dome? Genesis says it does. Do you dare undermine the word of God by not accepting that the Earth has a solid dome above it?
My Bible doesn't say there is a solid dome above the earth with stars inside it, so I can't comment on what you're Bible says.
You're being inconsistent and intellectually dishonest Vossler. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
I'm sorry but I truly don't see the inconsistency of which you elude to, even if it is there I'm sure it won't be the last time I'm guilty of that. Ignorance is another charge that as a YEC I'm used to hearing and know that at times I'm guilty of too. I'm sorry to disappoint you but I'm far from perfect. :sorry:
 
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Jase

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I think we can all agree there are some things in scripture that are not always clear to us mortal men, even with the Holy Spirit living inside us. Some things are revealed later as being different than what was first thought. In this case it makes no difference to me if we live in a geocentric world or a heliocentric one. This happens to be one of those things, no big deal, it wasn't a doctrinal issue. What is interesting is how many people wish to make it one. :scratch:
No kidding. All you literalists try to make a literal Genesis doctrinal.

My Bible doesn't say there is a solid dome above the earth with stars inside it, so I can't comment on what you're Bible says.
Yes yours does. All of them do. You just reinterpret it to avoid that little problem.

I'm sorry but I truly don't see the inconsistency of which you elude to, even if it is there I'm sure it won't be the last time I'm guilty of that. Ignorance is another charge that as a YEC I'm used to hearing and know that at times I'm guilty of too. I'm sorry to disappoint you but I'm far from perfect. :sorry:
Then you should be willing to admit that you may very well be wrong about Genesis being literal and evolution being false.
 
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vossler

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Then you should be willing to admit that you may very well be wrong about Genesis being literal and evolution being false.
I suppose anything is possible, no matter how remote, the possibility exists.
 
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theFijian

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vossler said:
I suppose anything is possible, no matter how remote, the possibility exists.
Wow...such humility. The question wasn't whether you think Genesis could be wrong, but whether you think your literal interpretation could be wrong.

I'll repeat it for those who maybe don't understand and for those who need to hear it again. If Genesis is infallible and inerrant, that doesn't mean that your interpretation of it is.
 
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vossler

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The question wasn't whether you think Genesis could be wrong, but whether you think your literal interpretation could be wrong.
Of course it could, I'm not all knowing or infallible nor do I wish to think I could be. There are a lot of things I'm probably wrong about, but until I'm shown that I can't admit to it either.
I'll repeat it for those who maybe don't understand and for those who need to hear it again. If Genesis is infallible and inerrant, that doesn't mean that your interpretation of it is.
Nor is anyone claiming it to be. :confused:
 
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vossler

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So you ARENT claiming your interpretation of Genesis is the correct one?
That's quite a bit different that claiming my interpretation is inerrant or infallible.
 
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Assyrian

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Sorry for the delay in responding I have been a bit under the weather.
sick0026.gif

What about it? Obviously a misinterpretation of Scripture that science was able to prove. Like I've said before, science isn't the enemy, people as unknowing agents of Satan are.
Yet geocentrism seemed the perfectly clear literal interpretation to people like Luther and Calvin and heliocentrism certainly seemed to undermine the word of God. Why not stick with the simple literal interpretation of geocentrism?

Given just the two statements I can't find fault, but if they went on to make slanderous accusations against fellow believers then I would definitely see you point.
Accusing fellow believers of idolatry is slanderous.

I'll give you that many scientists see creation science as an oxymoron and immediately dismiss it. Coming from their perspective or worldview that's understandable. I'll also say that from my limited scientific knowledge base it appears some creationists attempt to explain too many things scientifically as opposed to just saying they don't know. Yes, we're all fallible.
I'm actually talking about major YEC science arguments such as the supposed flaws in radiometric dating or evidence of light speed decay. But I just filled them away in the back of my mind, marked 'hmmm'.

So is it your contention that the days of Genesis were separated by large periods of time?
That is the literal reading, yes. I think they can also be read as referring to figurative 'day-ages'.
 
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vossler

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Sorry for the delay in responding I have been a bit under the weather.
sick0026.gif
Glad to hear you're doing better. :thumbsup:
Yet geocentrism seemed the perfectly clear literal interpretation to people like Luther and Calvin and heliocentrism certainly seemed to undermine the word of God. Why not stick with the simple literal interpretation of geocentrism?
That's true, in many ways geocentricism did seem like the perfectly clear and even in some ways literal interpretation, yet it never was definitive in any way shape or form. Not only that, it had no real doctrinal significance. Who today really cares whether we're helio or geo centric? Not me! ;)
Accusing fellow believers of idolatry is slanderous.
I truly believe that evolution is a form of idolatry. There is, IMO, an excessive or even blind adherence to the tenets of evolution. This is no different than materialism, the way we see athletes or movie stars, even people who worship the Bible instead of the Lord Jesus. Idolatry has many, many different forms.
That is the literal reading, yes. I think they can also be read as referring to figurative 'day-ages'.
I guess we all have a different version of that too! :sigh:
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Not only that, it had no real doctrinal significance. Who today really cares whether we're helio or geo centric?

you can experience the passion that people have for the issue at several of the geocentric sites. try to see the issue from their POV, it is a crucial beginning on the slippery slope of accommodation and capitulation to science on the part of Christians. Copernicanism is the first step to Marxism and atheism. to them it is a crucial and essential element of the faith. just because you don't feel the issue doesn't mean no one ever did. in fact, people killed and died over the issues, that is sufficient evidence for me that someone thought these things were important.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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truly believe that evolution is a form of idolatry. There is, IMO, an excessive or even blind adherence to the tenets of evolution. This is no different than materialism, the way we see athletes or movie stars, even people who worship the Bible instead of the Lord Jesus. Idolatry has many, many different forms.

truly believe that young earth creationism is a form of idolatry. There is, IMO, an excessive or even blind adherence to the tenets of a overly literal hermeneutic*. This is no different than a mistaken spiritualism**, the way we see charsmatic preachers or Gospel singers, even people who worship the Bible instead of the Lord Jesus. Idolatry has many, many different forms.

*that neglects the cultural and literary context and inserts modern concerns of history and science where none is intended.

**it is a modern Manicheanism that depreciates the revelation of God in creation and thinks that only the spiritual is important and real.
 
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Assyrian

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That's true, in many ways geocentricism did seem like the perfectly clear and even in some ways literal interpretation, yet it never was definitive in any way shape or form. Not only that, it had no real doctrinal significance.
It is hard to step outside our CrEvo perspectives and compare how definitive interpretations seemed. You have steeped yourself in YEC exegesis and apologetics, as is quite reasonable for you to do in you position. However you have probably spent your Christian life skimming over the seemingly geocentric passages not realising you weren't taking them literally. You are also probably unaware of the array of scriptural and in their mind scientific arguments, just as convincing to the geocentrist as AiG arguments are to YEC.

Standing on the outside, though I may be unwittingly biased here, I think there is a much stronger scriptural case for geocentrism than for a young earth.

Calvin writing before the controversy, gave us his commentary on Psalm 93:1 Yes, the world is established; it shall never be moved.
Calvin said:
The Psalmist proves that God will not neglect or abandon the world, from the fact that he created it. A simple survey of the world should of itself suffice to attest a Divine Providence. The heavens revolve daily, and, immense as is their fabric, and inconceivable the rapidity of their revolutions, we experience no concussion — no disturbance in the harmony of their motion. The sun, though varying its course every diurnal revolution, returns annually to the same point. The planets, in all their wanderings, maintain their respective positions. How could the earth hang suspended in the air were it not upheld by God’s hand? By what means could it maintain itself unmoved, while the heavens above are in constant rapid motion, did not its Divine Maker fix and establish it? Accordingly the particle אף, aph, denoting emphasis, is introduced — Yea, he hath established it.
Luther wrote:
Luther said:
People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon. Whoever wishes to appear clever must devise some new system, which of all systems is of course the very best. This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred Scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.
The gentle and scholarly Philip Melanchthon used
Eccles 1:5 The sun rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises to refute Copernicus.

There is no suggestion that Solomon is being anything other than literal here. The passage in Joshua is in the middle of a historical narrative.

In the Psalm, God's throne is as established as the established, unmovable earth.

Who today really cares whether we're helio or geo centric? Not me! ;)
So when Darwin has been around as long as Copernicus, do you think no one will care about the age of the earth or how species evolved either, and the church will treat YEC interpretations the way geocentric interpretations are just a historic footnote now?

I truly believe that evolution is a form of idolatry. There is, IMO, an excessive or even blind adherence to the tenets of evolution. This is no different than materialism, the way we see athletes or movie stars, even people who worship the Bible instead of the Lord Jesus. Idolatry has many, many different forms.
Idolatry is worship, bowing down physically or in your heart and giving yourself to the object of you idolatry in love and devotion. Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. That is what people do when they bow before idols, that is also what happens people gives their lives to the desire of material things. Greed is idolatry because people devote their hearts and lives to having that latest bright and shiny possession.

But being convinced that scientific evidence shows an ancient earth and common ancestry has nothing to do with idolatry. Preachers who promote that lie are preaching slander, and it is really ugly. It has no place in the body of Christ

I guess we all have a different version of that too! :sigh:
You have a version that where Genesis says the world was created in six day? Or that the days were consecutive? Or that the heavens and the earth were created on the first day rather than before it?
 
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vossler

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However you have probably spent your Christian life skimming over the seemingly geocentric passages not realising you weren't taking them literally. You are also probably unaware of the array of scriptural and in their mind scientific arguments, just as convincing to the geocentrist as AiG arguments are to YEC.
That may be true, there is a lot I'm not aware of. Before I came to CF I wasn't even aware that people existed who stated they were Christians and yet believed in evolution. ;)
Standing on the outside, though I may be unwittingly biased here, I think there is a much stronger scriptural case for geocentrism than for a young earth.
Certainly, ones perspective or worldview will play a major role on how one sees everything.

Calvin writing before the controversy, gave us his commentary on Psalm 93:1 Yes, the world is established; it shall never be moved.

Luther wrote:

The gentle and scholarly Philip Melanchthon used
Eccles 1:5 The sun rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises to refute Copernicus.

There is no suggestion that Solomon is being anything other than literal here. The passage in Joshua is in the middle of a historical narrative.

In the Psalm, God's throne is as established as the established, unmovable earth.
I'm not doubting any of these assertions.
So when Darwin has been around as long as Copernicus, do you think no one will care about the age of the earth or how species evolved either, and the church will treat YEC interpretations the way geocentric interpretations are just a historic footnote now?
You could very well be right. I pray not. :prayer:
Idolatry is worship, bowing down physically or in your heart and giving yourself to the object of you idolatry in love and devotion. Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. That is what people do when they bow before idols, that is also what happens people gives their lives to the desire of material things. Greed is idolatry because people devote their hearts and lives to having that latest bright and shiny possession.
That is one form of idolatry. What would you call someone who pursues money before anything else? What about someone who has a very strong attachment to an idea like evolution that replaces God then I believe it can be labeled as idolatry. This is strongly born out by many of those who regularly visit the C&E forum.
You have a version that where Genesis says the world was created in six day? Or that the days were consecutive? Or that the heavens and the earth were created on the first day rather than before it?
What? You don't!?! :p
 
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