Reason why evolution can not happen

[soysauce]

Mutation is a loss of information, not gain

 

[Pete Harcoff]

If you're going to copy 'n paste stuff from creationist sources, then it's customary to cite your sources.

But what you copied and pasted has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I'll ask again: how does one define genetic "information"?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Mutation is a loss of information, not gain

We're back to square one. Define genetic "information".

 

[pureone]

Mutation is a loss of information, not gain

again, it is a change in information, and if a sequence has been duplicated, and then mutated, it is an information increase.

 

[Brahe]

Mutation is a loss of information, not gain

Are you actually going to back this claim up? Or will you continue to repeat it like a mantra, no matter how many times it's shown wrong?

Come on now, soysauce. You've been here for a few minutes and already you've become competition for DURANG0.

 

[shenzhou]

the antifreeze blood is a variation. does it change the fact that the fish is still a fish?

But you defined genetic infromation as

"genetic information is determined by the instructions given to create the proteins, which create traits in an animal." http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=1772082#post1772082

The antifreeze protein is a new gene that produces a new protein that gives rise to a novel trait, according to your definition of information this is new infromation.

 

[soysauce]

The heritable biological information coded in the nucleotide sequences of DNA or RNA (certain viruses), such as in the chromosomes or in plasmids.
>health-link-net.com

 

[pureone]

beneficial mutation:


J Bone Miner Res. 2003 Jun;18(6):960-74.

[size=+1]High bone mass in mice expressing a mutant LRP5 gene.[/size]

Babij P, Zhao W, Small C, Kharode Y, Yaworsky PJ, Bouxsein ML, Reddy PS, Bodine PV, Robinson JA, Bhat B, Marzolf J, Moran RA, Bex F.

Genomics, Wyeth Research, Andover, Massachusetts, USA.

A unique mutation in LRP5 is associated with high bone mass in man. Transgenic mice expressing this LRP5 mutation have a similar phenotype with high bone mass and enhanced strength

 

[pureone]

The heritable biological information coded in the nucleotide sequences of DNA or RNA (certain viruses), such as in the chromosomes or in plasmids.
>health-link-net.com

yes. Uh, soy, many of us have a scientific background. our friend "divine vessel" knows what he is talking about.

 

[Arikay]

Please do not Plagiarize.
Cite your source: http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-089.htm

Not only are you breaking forum rules, it may be illegal and it is a sin, because it is stealing.

Beyond that, can you also give us a definition of "information" and "feature"

Mutations are "pathologic" (disease-causing) and only "modify what pre-exists," as French zoologist Pierre-Paul Grassé says, so mutations have "no final evolutionary effect."4 Instead, mutations point back to creation and to a corruption of the created order. There are 40-plus variants of hemoglobin, for example. All are variants of hemoglobin; that points back to creation. All are less effective oxygen carriers than normal hemoglobin; that points back to a corruption of the created order by time and chance.

At average mutation rates (one per million gene duplications), a human population of one billion would likely produce a thousand variant forms of hemoglobin. Lethal mutants would escape detection, and so would those that produced only minor changes, easily masked by a dominant normal gene. It is likely then, that the 40 or so recognized hemoglobin abnormalities represent only a small fraction of the genetic burden we bear at the hemoglobin position.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

The heritable biological information coded in the nucleotide sequences of DNA or RNA (certain viruses), such as in the chromosomes or in plasmids.

So genetic information is just a nucleotide sequence? Then if such a sequence is modified by a mutation that results in a sequence that did not exist before (i.e. it's new) then is that not new information?

(And again, cite your sources if copying and pasting.)

 

[soysauce]

sorry, my fault

 

[soysauce]

the sequence is scrambled not added. also, mutations are more harmful then productive. since that is a fact, evolution should be a downward spiral because of mutation.

 

[Split Rock]

Thats a VARAIATION. Its still a bacteria after it is resistnat toanitbiotics. It doesnt change into a monkey.

Are you referring to a Saltation type change? No scientist claims that evolution proceeds by such large steps as a bacteria turning into a monkey.

Gene duplication had been observed and we know that many enzymes are part of large gene families that differ to different degrees in sequence from each other (such as pectinesterase in plants). The logical conclusion is that these families were created through gene duplication and mutation. If you start with one gene and your decendants generations later wind up with 60 genes that code for different proteins (that can be regulated differently, or are expressed in different tissues, etc.), how can you say this is not an increase in information?

 

[Arikay]

Where is it a fact that mutations are more harmful than beneficial? My sources say that mutations are more likely to be nuetral. Natural selection flips this supposed downward spiral into and upward one, by keeping beneficial mutations and getting rid of harmful ones.

Again, what is a "feature?"

 

[pureone]

you quoted someone who said all are disease causeing, i proved it wrong. You are mutation right now, and your mutations are being reparied, so therefore most mutations do nothing at all....
gene loss happend during evolution as well...

: Genetics. 2003 Aug;164(4):1271-7. Related Articles, Links

[size=+1]Bacterial evolution through the selective loss of beneficial Genes. Trade-offs in expression involving two loci.[/size]

Zinser ER, Schneider D, Blot M, Kolter R.

Department of Microbiology and Molecular Genetics, Harvard Medical School, 200 Longwood Avenue, Boston, MA 02115, USA.

The loss of preexisting genes or gene activities during evolution is a major mechanism of ecological specialization. Evolutionary processes that can account for gene loss or inactivation have so far been restricted to one of two mechanisms: direct selection for the loss of gene activities that are disadvantageous under the conditions of selection (i.e., antagonistic pleiotropy) and selection-independent genetic drift of neutral (or nearly neutral) mutations (i.e., mutation accumulation). In this study we demonstrate with an evolved strain of Escherichia coli that a third, distinct mechanism exists by which gene activities can be lost. This selection-dependent mechanism involves the expropriation of one gene's upstream regulatory element by a second gene via a homologous recombination event. Resulting from this genetic exchange is the activation of the second gene and a concomitant inactivation of the first gene. This gene-for-gene expression tradeoff provides a net fitness gain, even if the forfeited activity of the first gene can play a positive role in fitness under the conditions of selection.

 

[pureone]

the sequence is scrambled not added.

, uh, as said, duplication then mutation = new information. Bone density paper= new information

 

[soysauce]

so what are evolutionists method of evolution. mutations...spontaneous generation...

 

[Pete Harcoff]

the sequence is scrambled not added.

Scrambled relative to what? If it's "new" compared to the previous sequence, then how is it not new information? Or is there more to the definition of information than simply a sequence of nucleotides?

(Do you see where I am trying to go here? Unless you define genetic "information" in a meaningful manner, then trying to argue about whether or not information increases is meaningless. You'll always end up back at square one trying to redefine "information".)

also, mutations are more harmful then productive. since that is a fact, evolution should be a downward spiral because of mutation.

Nope, because you have conveniently ignored the process of natural selection. As long as some beneficial mutations occur, selection can act on that, weeding out the harmful mutations and preserving the beneficial ones. (Of course, harmful and beneficial are also relative to an organism's environment.)

 

[pureone]

so what are evolutionists method of evolution. mutations...spontaneous generation...

The same method as the rest of the living world

Abiogenesis (Spont. gen. as you erroneously call it) is not evolution, nor mentioned among the facts and evidences.

mutations and natural selection. that about covers it.