Really? Trinity?

[TheBarrd]

Originally Posted by Imagican

But you DO mistake my authority with pride. Obviously you're not going to SEE it any differently and that is the MAIN reason that I mentioned that 'spirit of Eve'. For if you WERE the loving and understanding person you attempt to project, you would be ABLE to see the LOVE in my offerings instead of 'false pride'. You would RECOGNIZE the authority and APPRECIATE it rather than rebel against it. Just a bit of 'food for thought'. But I'm sure your being older than myself makes it quite difficult to be TOLD 'anything'.

You know what is odd here.
You thought, awhile ago, that you were older than I. You assumed that I was younger than you, and therefore had no business questioning you.
However, now that I have explained to you that I am ten years your senior, your tune has changed, albeit only slightly.
Now, it's "But I'm sure your being older than myself makes it quite difficult to be TOLD 'anything'."
And, of course, you don't see your own hypocrisy there.
Doesn't matter how old I am...I am a mere woman.
Does your Mom know about this spirit of Adam in you? Or is she one of those weak willed little ladies who bow to any man just cuz he's a man?
Did your Dad beat her, or don't you know?
​

 

[ron4shua]

The King Iames version AV 1611 ( Yes King Iames is correct )



" It was translated out of the original tongues and with previous translations, including that of William Tyndale, diligently compared and revised. In the preface of the 1611 edition, the translators stated that it was not their purpose to make a new translation but to make a good one better. It is a revision of the Bishop's Bible of 1568.

It was the desire of the translators to make God's holy Truth more and more known unto the people, even though they may be maligned by those religious persons who would keep the people in ignorance and darkness concerning it. It was presented to King James I when completed in 1611. It has been the standard English translation for almost four hundred years.

It is noted for the quality of translation and the majesty of style. The translators were committed to producing an English Bible that would be a precise translation and by no means a paraphrase or broadly approximate rendering. The scholars were fully familiar with the original languages of the Bible and especially gifted in their use of their native English. Because of their reverence for God and His Word, only a principle of utmost accuracy in their translation could be accepted. Appreciating the intrinsic beauty of divine revelation, they disciplined their talents to render well-chosen English words of their time as well as a graceful, often musical, arrangement of language.

There have been many publishers, many editions, and various features for this version.

[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom]


I have read portions of NINE ( KJV ) translation versions & three of those , cover to cover . With respect & holding it's basically a very good rendering of Scripture .
But the almost 7,000 exclusions of the Sacred “ NAME “ prejudices me for being my main sword .

 

[Der Alte]

I would offer that 47 scholars, (men with PHDs four hundred years ago when that probably MEANT something), many of them who not only SPOKE Greek, but were actually adept enough to DEBATE theology IN Greek, spent SEVEN years devoting themselves to the translation of the KJV.

Who are you responding to here? The person I was responding to was touting the Rotherham Emphasized Bible as the best translation so I asked how could someone who couldn't decline a Greek verb if their life depended on it and doesn't know an aorist from an Aardvark know if a Bible was the best translation or not? That question anticipates a negative response

And how about THIS concept.

Has English EVOLVED? Is it the SAME today as it was, let's say, five hundred years ago?

And we can apply the SAME concept to ANY language. Languages EVOLVE over TIME. New words are added. Old words take on NEW definitions. Slang and such.

So I would ask, "Is the Greek spoken TODAY the SAME as the Greek spoken, let's say, FOUR HUNDRED years ago? Would those who were fluent in Greek FOUR HUNDRED years ago have spoken a PURER form of the language than what is USED today?

All irrelevant. Scholars don't rely on modern Greek meanings to translate the Koine of the NT.

And another IDEA to contemplate. Exactly WHEN did the 'changes' in languages begin to CHANGE rapidly? You know. Like literature began to FLOURISH when man invented the PRINTING press. But that increase was NOTHING compared to the time of the electronic printers of the 80's. Heck, I can still remember when anything that was printed was TYPED by hand or type SET by hand. Now I can print hundreds of copies from MY OWN personal printer and it prints type at a speed that didn't exist thirty years ago.

Somewhat interesting but I don't see the relevance.

So, with this concept in mind, WHEN did languages such as Greek REALLY begin to CHANGE?

I would offer that the Greek of four hundred years ago would have been MUCH CLOSER to the Greek of two thousand years ago than that spoken TODAY.

That in and of itself would cause PROBLEMS with MODERN day translators of the language compared to those of four hundred years ago. The understanding would be DIFFERENT.

Scholars don't use a presumed understanding of Greek 400 years ago to translate the NT.

And in MY opinion, the DEGRADATION of the very 'spirit of man' in four hundred years makes me SUSPECT of just about ANYTHING to do with TRUE faith in a TRUE God NOW days. We already discussed my opinion that maybe we've ALL been DUPED. Maybe some or NONE of the 47 scholars that spent seven years, (without PAY), translating the KJV were DUPED yet EXCEPT for their belief in "trinity". But only allowed their BELIEFS to SLIGHTLY taint their translation. You know, an altered word here, a capital letter in the wrong place there.

A lot of presumptions with no evidence.

And it is my PERSONAL experience that what I have gained from reading the KJV verses others is that there is MORE IN the KJV. With 'lighter' translations men introduce SPECIFIC ideas rather then offering the words as they originally existed. When I compare different versions MYSELF, it is OBVIOUS that the shear AMOUNT of understanding becomes LIMITED when men choose to make it EASIER to read, (as is so often offered a REASON to re-translate the Bible).

You don't seem to be familiar with the translation process. Making the Bible "easier" to read had little to do with modern translations. For example the KJV has more than 800 words that have changed in meaning or have dropped out of the language altogether. For example what is a wimple, crisping pin and tire? It is almost unintelligible for people whose first language is not English.

Yes, the KJV has gone through it's 'changes' as well. But I still BELIEVE that it's closer than any OTHER version I have read. And there are a NUMBER of 'reasons' that I BELIEVE this.

The KJV and other versions are irrelevant to me I read both Biblical languages.

And when you start doing a LITTLE research about those that have created many of the more MODERN versions, you find pretty quickly that there have been some SERIOUSLY questionable individuals involved with the translations. Homosexuals, women, those of some seriously questionable BELIEFS.

I see allegations but no evidence. The homosexual woman had nothing to do with actual translation she was a grammarian and simply made the English read smoother. "SERIOUSLY questionable individuals""seriously questionable BELIEFS?" No evidence.

And there can be LITTLE doubt that what one BELIEVES will certainly have an influence on THEIR 'translation'. Heck we SEE that people READING the various Bibles rarely come to any MUTUAL understanding when people of various ideology are involved. In other words, someone GAY is certainly NOT going to come to the SAME understanding, reading the SAME Bible, as someone that is NOT. Heck, the fact that YOU SEE 'trinity' IN the Bible and I DO NOT just goes to prove my point.

If people are indoctrinated a certain way, they will usually interpret scripture in a way which agrees with that indoctrination and explain away anything which contradicts them as a bad translation.

And that adds a whole NEW dimension to the equation. Does it REALLY matter WHICH translation one reads if they are not willing or able to allow the Holy Spirit to be their GUIDE? But that is a whole other 'can of worms'.

It is not unusual for someone to claim that guidance of the "Holy Spirit" but interpret scripture contrary to its literal meaning. LDS, WBTS, SDA, UU, OP, UPCI, etc. all claim guidance by the Holy Spirit.

Suffice is to say that I have done some homework about different translations and the one that I would choose from the evidence is the KJV. It is MY belief that those that translated the KJV did their BEST to translate it as accurately as possible from the documents they used to translate it.

Now, let others tell us WHY they believe OTHER translations are MORE accurate.
Blessings,
MEC

I have a lot of respect for the KJV but as I said I don't rely on any version. I do language studies almost on a daily basis. For example, only yesterday, I saw something very interesting in the Hebrew of Isa 49:6 as it relates to Luk 3:30-32.

 

[TheBarrd]

Who are you responding to here? The person I was responding to was touting the Rotherham Emphasized Bible as the best translation so I asked how could someone who couldn't decline a Greek verb if their life depended on it and doesn't know an aorist from an Aardvark know if a Bible was the best translation or not? That question anticipates a negative response



All irrelevant. Scholars don't rely on modern Greek meanings to translate the Koine of the NT.



Somewhat interesting but I don't see the relevance.



Scholars don't use a presumed understanding of Greek 400 years ago to translate the NT.



A lot of presumptions with no evidence.



You don't seem to be familiar with the translation process. Making the Bible "easier" to read had little to do with modern translations. For example the KJV has more than 800 words that have changed in meaning or have dropped out of the language altogether. For example what is a wimple, crisping pin and tire? It is almost unintelligible for people whose first language is not English.



The KJV and other versions are irrelevant to me I read both Biblical languages.



I see allegations but no evidence. The homosexual woman had nothing to do with actual translation she was a grammarian and simply made the English read smoother. "SERIOUSLY questionable individuals""seriously questionable BELIEFS?" No evidence.



If people are indoctrinated a certain way, they will usually interpret scripture in a way which agrees with that indoctrination and explain away anything which contradicts them as a bad translation.



It is not unusual for someone to claim that guidance of the "Holy Spirit" but interpret scripture contrary to its literal meaning. LDS, WBTS, SDA, UU, OP, UPCI, etc. all claim guidance by the Holy Spirit.



I have a lot of respect for the KJV but as I said I don't rely on any version. I do language studies almost on a daily basis. For example, only yesterday, I saw something very interesting in the Hebrew of Isa 49:6 as it relates to Luk 3:30-32.

I've never met anyone who actually knew these ancient languages. I am deeply impressed.
And I'm very curious about that last bit. Would you mind sharing with us what you saw in Isa 49:6 that relates to Luk 3:30-32?
I am always anxious to learn something new...

 

[TheBarrd]

der uber alte...something about the age? German, I think...is it?

 

[Der Alte]

der uber alte...something about the age? German, I think...is it?

My SN Der Alte should not have the "r." Der Alte means the old one or the elder. "Der Uber Alte" is sort of a joke. I started that a few years ago when there were some posters with "Uber" in their names. "Uber" means over or above in German. I think people use it to mean "the ultimate, above all, the best, top" etc.

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
I just came home from work, and yes Jesus who is Lord of the Sabbath is the assigner of my being at Evergreen Aviation Museum, as a docent on Sunday's. So, hopefully that wil not be seen as another flaw in my experiences, by some.
I am so pleased with you guys, I should except I am exhausted, look up all or your names, but you know which you are. TheBaard, DerAlter, Ron4shua, who am I forgetting....all of you who support what is in the Real Bible, that of the idea of the Trininty. You guys. You who are something enough to be able to know what is true from what is false. I am pleased with all of you. I am pleased with all of you as much as I plead with two others here, or one other posing as two others, to choose God and the translations of Scriptures, not done by some errant amateur, who does not know that position of things is critical in English, etc. etc. etc.
Your defense of God is wonderful and I love you all for this.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina.,

 

[ron4shua]

5and now said יהוה – who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, to bring Ya‛aqoḇ back to Him, though Yisra’ĕl is not gathered to Him, yet I am esteemed in the eyes of יהוה, and My Elohim has been My streAngth –
6and He says, “Shall it be a small matter for You to be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Ya‛aqoḇ, and to bring back the preserved ones of Yisra’ĕl? And I shall give You as a light5 to the gentiles, to be My deliverance to the ends of the earth!”
7Thus said יהוה, the Redeemer of Yisra’ĕl, their Set-apart One, to the despised, to the loathed One of the nation, to the Servant of rulers, “Sovereigns shall see and arise, rulers also shall bow themselves, because of יהוה who is steadfast, the Set-apart One of Yisra’ĕl. And He has chosen You!”

Is it Luke 2: you mean not chapter 3 ?

21And when eight days were completed for Him to be circumcised, His Name was called יהושע, the Name given by the messenger before He was conceived in the womb.

22And when the days of her cleansing according to the Torah of Mosheh were completed, they brought Him to Yerushalayim to present Him to יהוה –

23as it has been written in the Torah of יהוה, “Every male who opens the womb shall be called set-apart to יהוה” –

24and to give an offering according to what is said in the Torah of יהוה, “A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.”

25And see, there was a man in Yerushalayim whose name was Shim‛on, and this man was righteous and dedicated, looking for the comforting of Yisra’ĕl. And the Set-apart Spirit was upon him.

26And it had been revealed to him by the Set-apart Spirit that he would not see death before he sees the Messiah of יהוה.

27And he came in the Spirit into the Set-apart Place. And as the parents brought in the Child יהושע, to do for Him according to the usual practice of the Torah,

28then he took Him up in his arms and blessed Elohim and said,

29“Now let Your servant go in peace, O Master, according to Your word,

30for my eyes have seen Your deliverance,

31which You have prepared before the face of all the peoples,

32a light for the unveiling of the gentiles, and the esteem of Your people Yisra’ĕl.”

33And Yosĕph and His mother were marvelling at what was said about Him.

34And Shim‛on blessed them, and said to Miryam His mother, “See, this One is set for a fall and rising of many in Yisra’ĕl, and for a sign spoken against –

35and a sword shall pierce through your own being also – so as to reveal the thoughts of many hearts.”

36And there was Ḥannah, a prophetess, a daughter of Penu’ĕl, of the tribe of Ashĕr. She was advanced in years, and had lived with a husband seven years from her maidenhood,

37and she was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not leave the Set-apart Place, but served Elohim with fastings and prayers night and day.

38And she, coming in at that moment, gave thanks to יהוה, and spoke of Him to all who were waiting for redemption in Yerushalayim.

39And when they had accomplished all matters according to the Torah of יהוה, they returned to Galil, to their city Natsareth.

40And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, being filled with wisdom. And the favour of Elohim was upon Him.

One of my all time favorites , HalleluYAH !

 

[katerinah1947]

5and now said יהוה – who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, to bring Ya‛aqoḇ back to Him, though Yisra’ĕl is not gathered to Him, yet I am esteemed in the eyes of יהוה, and My Elohim has been My streAngth –
6and He says, “Shall it be a small matter for You to be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Ya‛aqoḇ, and to bring back the preserved ones of Yisra’ĕl? And I shall give You as a light5 to the gentiles, to be My deliverance to the ends of the earth!”
7Thus said יהוה, the Redeemer of Yisra’ĕl, their Set-apart One, to the despised, to the loathed One of the nation, to the Servant of rulers, “Sovereigns shall see and arise, rulers also shall bow themselves, because of יהוה who is steadfast, the Set-apart One of Yisra’ĕl. And He has chosen You!”

Is it Luke 2: you mean not chapter 3 ?

21And when eight days were completed for Him to be circumcised, His Name was called יהושע, the Name given by the messenger before He was conceived in the womb.

22And when the days of her cleansing according to the Torah of Mosheh were completed, they brought Him to Yerushalayim to present Him to יהוה –

23as it has been written in the Torah of יהוה, “Every male who opens the womb shall be called set-apart to יהוה” –

24and to give an offering according to what is said in the Torah of יהוה, “A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.”

25And see, there was a man in Yerushalayim whose name was Shim‛on, and this man was righteous and dedicated, looking for the comforting of Yisra’ĕl. And the Set-apart Spirit was upon him.

26And it had been revealed to him by the Set-apart Spirit that he would not see death before he sees the Messiah of יהוה.

27And he came in the Spirit into the Set-apart Place. And as the parents brought in the Child יהושע, to do for Him according to the usual practice of the Torah,

28then he took Him up in his arms and blessed Elohim and said,

29“Now let Your servant go in peace, O Master, according to Your word,

30for my eyes have seen Your deliverance,

31which You have prepared before the face of all the peoples,

32a light for the unveiling of the gentiles, and the esteem of Your people Yisra’ĕl.”

33And Yosĕph and His mother were marvelling at what was said about Him.

34And Shim‛on blessed them, and said to Miryam His mother, “See, this One is set for a fall and rising of many in Yisra’ĕl, and for a sign spoken against –

35and a sword shall pierce through your own being also – so as to reveal the thoughts of many hearts.”

36And there was Ḥannah, a prophetess, a daughter of Penu’ĕl, of the tribe of Ashĕr. She was advanced in years, and had lived with a husband seven years from her maidenhood,

37and she was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not leave the Set-apart Place, but served Elohim with fastings and prayers night and day.

38And she, coming in at that moment, gave thanks to יהוה, and spoke of Him to all who were waiting for redemption in Yerushalayim.

39And when they had accomplished all matters according to the Torah of יהוה, they returned to Galil, to their city Natsareth.

40And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, being filled with wisdom. And the favour of Elohim was upon Him.

One of my all time favorites , HalleluYAH !

Hi,
Thanks, and although only an american with math skills and engineering skills, which is incompataible with languages, I get the gist of what you said, and tearfully almost, with my heart breaking (from nice feelings), I am pleased you shared this, with me.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina.
One of my favorite ideas, is that Wisdom of Proverbs 8, is actually a female, and No Ron, I cannot claim that in the way you can. I only hope it is true. If it is, that she is created by God, not as the characteristic of wisdom, but in fact is like a woman without a body, given the task by God to test all men, and when she is sure, a woman, in the man's intentions to choose honest over everything else, then and only then does she reward, with knowledge and understanding......of.......God.
I have other favorite understandings, again that might need some work. One is those words: David speaking under the inspiration of The Holy Spirit said, The Lord said to my Lord...... which I then used in Psalms 2, with these substitutions of The Lord is God The Father, and my Lord is Jesus Christ, and it is there, if I did the work right, that Jesus is seen as taking His inheritance from His Father. He does it tacitly.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina.,

 

[2ducklow]

The topic is Really? Trinity? .

Trinity, the
Doctrine of proved from Scripture Matthew 3:16,17 ; 28:19 ; Romans 8:9 ; 1 Corinthians 12:3-6 ; 2 Corinthians 13:14 ; Ephesians

http://www.studylight.org/concordances/ttt/search.cgi?w=trinity,+the


Mathew 3:16 And Jesus, having been immersed, straightway, went up from the water,—and lo! the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God, descending like a dove coming upon him;

Matthew 3:17 and lo! a voice out of the heavens,—saying, This, is my Son, the Beloved, in whom I delight.

No mention of a trinity there,
28:19 Go ye, therefore, and disciple all the nations, Immersing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,—

No mention of a trinity in that spurious scripture.



Romans 8:9 But, ye, have not your being in flesh, but in spirit,—if at least, God's Spirit, dwelleth in you; and, if anyone hath not Christ's Spirit, the same, is not his;—

Nothing about a trinity there.

1 cor. 12:3 Wherefore, I give you to know—that, no one, in God's Spirit speaking, saith—Accursed Jesus! and, no one, can say—Lord Jesus! save in [the] Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:4 But, distributions of gifts, there are, yet the same Spirit,

1 Corinthians 12:5 And, distributions of ministries, there are, and the same Lord,

1 Corinthians 12:6 And, distributions of energies, there are, and the same God—who energiseth all things in all.

no mention of a trinity there.


:2 cor 13:14 The favour of our Lord Jesus [Christ], and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

no trinity there.

Ephesians


No trinity there either, So where is the trinity? Catholic dogma, council of Nicea etc.

 

[2ducklow]

Ok here's another source for trinity

Old & New Testament Greek

Search results for trinity



Search Error

Sorry but there were no entries in the database containing your query.
Please try a diffent query using the search box in the right column.

Search for: trinity - Old & New Testament Greek - Bible Lexicons - StudyLight.org

whoops ok let's try vines

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
Couldn't find any information on the word: trinity

http://www2.mf.no/bibelprog/vines.pl?word=trinity

Uh oh, Really? Trinity? not looking good.

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
I have seen Him, with my own eyes, not the face but the Essence, the one the Catholics call God, the ones the Catholics theorize as The Beatific Vision. Of this I have seen, of this I have 'tasted'. I have tasted the goodness of the Lord, not as eyes still shut have I seen but with eyes opened to see. He is Three. The Lord Jesus Christ on the left. The Lord The Father in the Center, The Lord The Holy Spirit on the right. These Three mine eyes doth see, and when they left, they took my heart.
Never once since then in 6, never once since 2000 and six, never once have I owned my heart, it is they who have wisked it away. And now I say, I saw them, I was given them, it is a blessing to thee. It is a blessing to me. It is a blessing to thee.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina.

 

[Imagican]

And yet we send our children to school as early as age five. How foolish of us. We obviously ought to wait until they are more mature...

Yes we do. But we don't START them out with algebra. We start them off with ABC's and 123's. In other words, we START them out when they are FIVE. We don't try to teach them psychology when they are FIVE. I find it absolutely amusing that someone that has tried to tell me how MUCH they KNOW would need some simpleton like ME to point out the error of such an IDEA.

Oh, fevvinsakes...Magician, my understanding deepened as I grew, of course.
Why in God's Holy Name do we send our children to Sunday School?
And why do you think prayer was banned from the classroom?

I WOULDN'T send MY child to Sunday School. The entire PREMISE of Sunday worship is deception to begin with. A 'Catholic' invention that was designed to utterly DESTROY the Sabbath given to man.

Ahh, at last...something we can agree on.
Well, sort of.
Your words to me indicated that you thought I was depressed in my personal life, not whether I thought the state of the world was depressing.
Are you, Magician, depressed or unhappy in your PERSONAL life?
I think you are.

What you think is pretty irrelevant considering I already answered the question as HONESTLY as possible. While such concepts are relative, I would offer that I am MUCH LESS depressed NOW days than at times in the past when I THOUGHT I was 'on top of the world'.

Compared to the past? So the past was not so good then?
Well, at least it's better now.
But I'm thinking it could be better yet...

From a 'worldly perspective', in the past, I 'had it made'. The problem was, I was UTTERLY BLIND. And I am looking forward to things ALWAYS being 'better' in the future. But that is not where I place my faith. I take it as it comes.

I have a kid brother who once asked me why I dropped out of the rat race. (He expected me to have a shining career as a lawyer, since that is what I trained for, however, I chose to be a stay at home wife and mother instead.)
My answer to him...and this was some 25 years ago...was that I did not wish to race with rats.
Now, my brother does have a very successful career with his own business as an electrician. He has made a great deal of money, he owns several lovely houses, and he has bunches of money in the bank.
All of this and he is an atheist, and very unhappy.
My own feeling is that, while we all go through ups and downs in this world, how we handle them...and especially the "downs"...has a great deal to do with our attitude.
I choose not to get involved in dog fights...
Anyway, I also struggle with finances etc...but I know that such things are trivial. In the end, whatever we possess in this world will go "poof" anyhow. To truly be happy, one must keep one's treasure in Heaven.

Well now. It seems that SOME of our understanding IS in agreement.

So I'm not the first gal who has told you where you can put your "authority".
How bout that?

NOPE!!!!!! I have had MANY, (most), try to TELL ME that they don't really CARE what the Bible says, they are going to believe what they WANT to believe regardless. Fortunately I found one that is more than satisfied to put God first in her life and me second. And you'd be amazed how much she's learned concerning the TRUTH.

I will return the favor and not bore you with details about my own IQ...except to say this: I am not lacking.

No comment.

First of all, what authority? You are not my husband or my father. It is pride that makes you think you have this non-existent authority.
Your continued reference to "the spirit of Eve" makes me giggle. Yeah...just like a girl.
Oh, I think you are trying to offer me "love"...as best you can, anyhow...however, if YOU were the loving and understanding person that YOU attempt to project, you would be able to see how offensive your attitude toward me as a woman truly is.
Christ never treated women any differently than men. And this in an age when women truly were "chattel". No, He spoke with them openly, just as if they were men.
Did you know that He had a great many female followers?
Did you know that the first person He showed Himself to after His resurrection was a woman?
Did you know that it was women who supported His ministry with their own finances?
Did you know that Paul commends several women who held positions of authority within the early church, even calling Junia an apostle, and "of note among the apostles"?
Had you read, in the OT, about Deborah (for whom I was named, btw)? Did you know that the brave warrior, Barak, would not go into battle without her? Did you know that it was a woman named Jael who killed Sisera (the guy who led the opposing force)?

Once again you prove yourself and your desire to MAKE UP what you WANT to believe. There was NEVER a 'female' apostle regardless of your statement. I suppose YOU believe YOU are an apostle as well? For many 'false churches' teach that apostleship STILL exists.

While God has certainly used women IN the 'Church', you openly show your unwillingness to acknowledge the TRUTH. You seem to THINK that women are somehow 'better' than men. And it is THAT 'spirit of Eve' to which I refer. Paul plainly details the PLACE of women IN the 'Church'. As a matter of FACT, he details HOW women are to act that are even REMOTELY 'Spiritual'.

I have NO disdain for you being a woman nor do I have any animosity towards women PERIOD. What I do find offensive to the 'congregation' are women who IGNORE the instruction that they have been given through God's Word. Women who BELIEVE they are capable of usurping the authority of God by usurping the authority of MEN. You were COMMANDED to be a GOOD example to OTHER women instead of trying to influence them to follow the SAME path you have chosen to follow: your own.

No, Darling, you have no authority for me to recognize. God did not place you above me. This "authority" you think you have is your own imagination.
There are plenty of guys I respect and trust, and who I listen to. But they earned that respect and that trust. You have not done so yet. Perhaps you need to be delivered from that spirit of Adam that I detect in you.
Come to think of it, there are also women I respect and admire, and listen to. Again, they earned that respect.

Not ABOVE you, a-head of you. My BIRTH should have been all it takes to 'earn' your respect so far as authority is concerned. I did NOT choose the ORDER that God 'created' or PLACED into 'creation'. He did. I simply FOLLOW as instructed.

And I suppose that God has earned your respect?

And what exactly IS this "spirit of Adam"? If I were to guess, I would say it would be the 'spirit' that would ALLOW women to usurp their authority. For that is EXACTLY what Adam DID that was in ERROR.

What would you say if I told you that I stood up and walked out of a Baptist church? It was a Wednesday night "business meeting" Someone suggested that we allocate some money to some new literature for the Sunday School classes. There was some discussion as to how much money and which other items we might cut a bit to afford it, when the pastor said "not my salary!"
I have long held that denominationalism is a shame to the church.

Once again, there may well be SOME understanding that we share.

No, I don't give money to any church, nor have I since I was a little kid, and that was money I was given for the purpose. Even then I wondered why God needed a quarter, but since my Dad seemed to think He did, I was willing to give it to Him.

I think you need to look into what the doctrine really does teach.
Why do you suppose that Christ cried out "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me" just before He died?

I KNOW why. For Christ to 'take on' the sins of this world, God was, by His very NATURE, forced to ABANDON His Son SO that He COULD 'take on' our sins.

Or why did the thief ask Him to remember him when He came into His Kingdom, or for that matter, how was He able to promise the thief that he would be in Paradise with Him "today" when He would not rise till the wee hours of Sunday morning?

See how often you err? When we DIE, we ALL SLEEP. When Christ made the comment He was referring to 'when you wake up', and that was decided TODAY. In other words, the PROMISE was made TODAY. But that man you mention is STILL SLEEPING and WILL REMAIN asleep until time for judgement. But you can certainly MAKE UP whatever you CHOOSE to believe. You know, like all your loved ones that have even died are NOW in heaven with God?????

How could He say to a paralytic that "Your sins are forgiven you"? It is true, you know...only God can forgive sins.

God could empower ME to forgive sins. It is the POWER to forgive sins that belongs to GOD alone. But God can determine HOW He uses that POWER or WHO He shares it with. It wasn't Christ that healed the sick, it was God THROUGH Christ. Or, do you believe that both Peter and Paul and any or everyone else that has ever brought about the healing of another to be GOD?

And the prostitute who washed His feet with her tears and dried them with the hair of her head...she knew Who He was. (Another woman...imagine that.)

There have been PLENTY of women who KNOW Christ. But there are an awful lot MORE that never will know the TRUE Christ. Simply USE the name in order to try and lead others astray.

You think that because the Bible doesn't contain the word "Trinity" that it doesn't teach a Trinity? It's just a word, fagoshsakes.

REALLY???? Have you actually READ anything I have offered? The Bible DOES NOT TEACH 'trinity'. It has NOTHING to do with the 'word trinity'. Once again, you show your ignorance in that those that 'CREATED trinity' openly ADMIT that it is NOT something that is revealed in God's Word. It MUST be divinely revealed. The only thing that they offer concerning the Word is that it does not ELIMINATE the concept of 'trinity'.

See, you follow something that you don't even have the first idea of. Not only can 'trinity' not be comprehended by ANY 'created intellect', those that created it openly ADMIT that it is NOT possible to READ ABOUT it in the Bible and LEARN it. it MUST be 'divinely REVEALED'. GET IT?

See, it is LEARNING what 'trinity' TRULY is that leads ME to the understanding of EXACTLY what it is. it would appear that you don't even CARE enough to KNOW what it MEANS according to it's CREATORS.

Your comments are MOSTLY about as 'traditionally' Baptists as any I've every heard, (other than your ideas about the place of WOMEN in the 'church'). They TOO follow 'trinity' about as blindly as you indicate YOU do. Most of them I have ever had discussion with are UTTERLY ignorant about what 'trinity' IS according to those that 'created it'.

Tell me, is the Holy Spirit not God? Or do you believe in a "Binity"?
To be accurate, perhaps we ought to call God a 'Septity"...since Revelation mentions that He has seven spirits...

NO, the Holy Spirit is NOT God. It is a PART of God. Just like His Son is a PART of Him. The term that God provided is GODHEAD not "TRINITY". And we are told THIS about GODHEAD:

Acts 17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

"Trinity" is 'graven by art and man's device'. Just READ what those that 'created it' SAY about it.

It started with a desire to WORSHIP Christ AS God. So they had to make Christ EQUAL to God. And then the idea evolved into Christ BEING God. That is a 'false Christ'. How about this:

Matthew 7:

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


WHO do YOU suppose would try to tell Christ all the wonderful THINGS that they have done IN HIS NAME? 'Churches'. Churches that were following a FALSE Christ. Churches that have chosen to follow 'trinity'. A DOCTRINE of men who have TRIED to turn the Son into God Himself. If the Son is NOT God, then worshiping the Son AS God is worshiping a FALSE GOD.



But OBVIOUSLY those referenced in this scripture BELIEVED that simply USING the NAME OF CHRIST was all they NEEDED to DO. And BELIEVED that the THINGS that they DID in His NAME were 'righteous'. But it is pretty clear from Christ's response that they NEVER EVEN KNEW HIM. For He did NOT KNOW them.


How about this: Are you capable of admitting that IF Christ is NOT God, then worshiping Him AS God is worshiping a FALSE Christ? You say He IS God. But if the TRUTH is, He is NOT God, are you even CAPABLE of admitting that to worship ANYTHING as God that is NOT God is to worship a FALSE GOD?


Who says I deny it?
I present, as evidence, a poem I wrote years ago:
(yes, there is a reason I am called "TheBarrd")

Trinity​

Lo, here is a mystery
Our God, Who is Three in One
Behold, the Holy Trinity
The Father, The Spirit and The Son
More than we can understand
How can such a strange thing be
We cannot, with the mind of man
Comprehend infinity
We must simply trust His Word
Believe that He is One in Three
For we know "Thus saith the Lord"
That is enough for you and me​

continued in next post...

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Originally Posted by Imagican

But you DO mistake my authority with pride. Obviously you're not going to SEE it any differently and that is the MAIN reason that I mentioned that 'spirit of Eve'. For if you WERE the loving and understanding person you attempt to project, you would be ABLE to see the LOVE in my offerings instead of 'false pride'. You would RECOGNIZE the authority and APPRECIATE it rather than rebel against it. Just a bit of 'food for thought'. But I'm sure your being older than myself makes it quite difficult to be TOLD 'anything'.

You know what is odd here.
You thought, awhile ago, that you were older than I. You assumed that I was younger than you, and therefore had no business questioning you.

However, now that I have explained to you that I am ten years your senior, your tune has changed, albeit only slightly.

How do you see my tone as CHANGING? I have spoken to you NO differently than I did in the beginning. If you felt that I was talking to you as one being YOUNGER in the beginning, now that you have proven even MORE of yourself, I would say that you are YOUNGER in your walk than I FIRST thought. It has NOTHING to do with physical age. You could DIE at the age of 120 and STILL never understand the TRUTH.

2 Timothy 3:
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now, it's "But I'm sure your being older than myself makes it quite difficult to be TOLD 'anything'."

If that is what you SEE, let me assure you, you are mistaken. The 'spirit of Eve' HAS NO AGE. You being OLDER only makes it seem that you have learned even LESS of the truth than you SHOULD have and are now reaching a place in life that will make it difficult to EVERY learn anything of significance.

And, of course, you don't see your own hypocrisy there.
Doesn't matter how old I am...I am a mere woman.

See, now YOU admit that the previous accusations are FALSE. For NOW you have come CLOSER to the TRUTH and it has NOTHING to DO with age.

And that pretty much points out that it's NOT MY hypocrisy we're dealing with here. It is YOU that continues to contradict YOURSELF.

First, my attitude stemmed from me believing you are YOUNGER than myself, (while that may be TRUE, it has NOTHING to DO with the manner in which I communicate with you). Now it's you being a WOMAN. And in the same post.

I believed you were YOUNGER than me for it appeared in your WORDS that you were 'but a babe' in Christ. Now I question even that assessment.

No, you are NOT a 'mere woman'. You are a woman who has come to BELIEVE that you can be whatever you WANT to be regardless of how you were 'created'. A woman that has come to believe that you can SERVE God in YOUR way regardless of HIS instruction. That is what "I SEE".

Does your Mom know about this spirit of Adam in you? Or is she one of those weak willed little ladies who bow to any man just cuz he's a man?
Did your Dad beat her, or don't you know?

Since I have NO idea what you mean by 'spirit of Adam', I really have no way to answer your question. But I will offer this:

My mother is DEAD. Died when she was fifty and that was almost thirty years ago. But I appreciate you trying to bring my MOTHER into this. Once again, I APPRECIATE your candor. For the MORE you speak, the MORE you prove EXACTLY who you are.

My Father is DEAD as well. He spent 25 years of his life serving this country and vowing to protect the freedom that you seem to revel in. He was a Warrant Officer in the US Navy when he retired. Then worked for the State of Virginia for another twenty years. A 'double dipper' as some seem to find solace in labeling those willing to WORK and COMPLETE two careers.

But I will answer your nastiness in this manner: My mother was the kind of woman that would have SHOWN you exactly what kind of woman she was had you asked HER such questions. Fortunately most of her attitude that she instilled in me as a child has dissipated over the years. But I appreciate you asking.

I will offer you this, you certainly are a spiteful and scornful woman. I'll give you that. When trying to attack my character didn't work, you resort to attacking the character of my PARENTS? Shame on you. You are indeed a poor wretched woman according to ANYONE'S standards. And I am praying for you. I forgive you. Go and sin no more.
​

Blessings,

MEC

 

[TheBarrd]

This may take awhile, as my "quote" function seems to have gone astray...so I'm gonna have to do it by "copy and paste". Sorry.
Anyhow, here we go...

And yet we send our children to school as early as age five. How foolish of us. We obviously ought to wait until they are more mature...

Yes we do. But we don't START them out with algebra. We start them off with ABC's and 123's. In other words, we START them out when they are FIVE. We don't try to teach them psychology when they are FIVE. I find it absolutely amusing that someone that has tried to tell me how MUCH they KNOW would need some simpleton like ME to point out the error of such an IDEA.

Did I give you the impression that I studied psychology at five years of age? Let's not be ridiculous.
Your idea that an eleven year old ought not to read her Bible is ludicrous, at least. Thank the Good Lord you never had anything to do with my kids...and I don't want you near any of my grandkids, either, thank you.
I did mention that my understanding deepened as I grew.
At eight, I was reading Shakespeare...laughing at "The Merchant of Venice"...and I was crazy about Puck the mischievous little fairy sprite from "Midsummer's Night's Dream". In other words, I was already reading material most kids don't read till high school...and understanding it. I was writing poetry and short stories by the time I was in sixth grade...and won an award...a US Savings Bond...for one of my pieces.
My little twelve year old grand daughter has read her Bible...cover to cover.
Who are you to try to limit a child's understanding...and particularly a kid you don't even know.


Oh, fevvinsakes...Magician, my understanding deepened as I grew, of course.
Why in God's Holy Name do we send our children to Sunday School?
And why do you think prayer was banned from the classroom?

I WOULDN'T send MY child to Sunday School. The entire PREMISE of Sunday worship is deception to begin with. A 'Catholic' invention that was designed to utterly DESTROY the Sabbath given to man.

Well, we are in agreement on the Sabbath...which amazes me.
However, worship is something that a Christian ought to do every day, not just once or twice a week. I try to make my whole life an act of worship.

Ahh, at last...something we can agree on.
Well, sort of.
Your words to me indicated that you thought I was depressed in my personal life, not whether I thought the state of the world was depressing.
Are you, Magician, depressed or unhappy in your PERSONAL life?
I think you are.

What you think is pretty irrelevant considering I already answered the question as HONESTLY as possible. While such concepts are relative, I would offer that I am MUCH LESS depressed NOW days than at times in the past when I THOUGHT I was 'on top of the world'.

Yes...what I think about you and about your private life is completely irrelevant.
By the same token, what you think about me and my private life is also completely irrelevant.
Why do you not understand this?

 

[TheBarrd]

Skipping to the next important bit...

I KNOW why. For Christ to 'take on' the sins of this world, God was, by His very NATURE, forced to ABANDON His Son SO that He COULD 'take on' our sins.

That's a very worldly explanation.
How about this?
Jesus was, and is, both fully God and fully Man. As you said earlier, God can not die...therefore, the spirit of God in Him had to "abandon" Him so that the Man could die.
The notion that a Holy God cannot so much as look at sin is really kinda stupid. God says plainly that He is not willing that any should perish, but that all might come to repentance.
He sees our sin, alright...and it makes Him very sad.

 

[Imagican]

What in God's Holy Name would someone's gender have to do with their ability to translate a language? Or their lack of said ability?
You know, I'm beginning to suspect that you might have issues with your own sexuality. Maybe you're a closet homosexual. Why else would you keep hammering on women and homosexuals?
We don't know you...all we know of you is the words you type. And there seems to be a lot of animosity toward women in those words, and against homosexuals too. That does indicate a problem.
A man who is secure in his own manhood doesn't have to prove himself by belittling others.

So, now you see animosity in my recognition of perversion or the place of women in the Church as outlined through SCRIPTURE? So recognition of the TRUTH somehow makes my sexual preferences questionable?

I would suggest that you read Romans. Just start with the first chapter and read it more than once.

For someone that has stated they have read the Bible once every year for fifty years, you certainly don't seem to have learned anything from it.

I have absolutely NO animosity towards homosexuals, bank robbers, child molesters, murderers, liars, thieves or anyone else. But I DO recognize the damage performing such acts can have upon one's soul. I PRAY FOR them, not AGAINST them. I struggle and do MY BEST to love ALL as if we are brothers, (and sisters).

And how do you see it 'belittling' to state the TRUTH? Do you have a PROBLEM with the TRUTH? Yet claim to be a follower of the TRUTH? Once again, you seem to LIKE the word hypocrite, maybe it's because you are so familiar with the aspects of hypocrisy? You say you are a believer and follower, but there is nothing indicative of this being TRUTH in the words that you offer.

First you attack the character of my parents, and NOW you attack my sexuality? I think it is YOU that are a 'man hater', not me having anything against women. But I do find women like YOU to be hard to deal with. For the DEEPER you dig yourself in, the more you show yourself. And what you are showing is pretty dark and it seems to get darker as this conversation progresses.

I once confronted a DEMON who made similar accusations. When I told it 'Jesus loves you', it winked at me, shot me a 'devil sign' and started accusing me of molesting children and being wanted by the police and all sorts of demonic garbage. And the strangest part is that some think demons are POWERFUL. I have found that their power is LIMITED to what one ALLOWS. For this one revealed itself to a ROOMFUL of people. Not just me.

Don't you THINK it's about time for you to start with the: "oh, pardon me, was I RANTING? That's not REALLY who I am. I'm REALLY a LOVER not a fighter. Forgive me for for what I have revealed. That's not REALLY ME. For what I REALLY want you to think is that I believe in and follow Jesus Christ. That's why I've read the Bible fifty times. TRUST me'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi
I would think that would be enough insults. Two "men" came on here, insulting and insulting others. One now claims he has the moral high ground because someone in his family was a navy seal, one of my kinds of people. One of the types of people I hand with, and still he insults, and insults.
Resorting to insults in a combat tactic with the enemy. Some of us, have had training against that. I have been trained against that.
Having a person who you know, who has high heroism, should make the son, act more heroic.
Jesus when he was asked by the lawless within the religion of the time, told the truth, He did not insult. He did not.
The fact that two men here, would like to be experts, and have failed miserably on it, does not seem to deter them. Instead just like the people, I fight, and one of these guy's dad's fought, they continue on, just like the enemy, does.
Expert:
"One who knows everything there is to know about a subject and which of it is false"
Salesman:
"One who only talks about what is right with himself and what he is selling"

Sign of a perfect man:
"Admits when he is wrong"
Two people here, are using Jehovah's Witness type of tactics. They are using Jehovah's Witness types of translations. And like The Jehovah's Witnesses, they are defending those with deceptive and shallow and foolish words. Those two people have been shown, that a man from Princeton, working in Theology, a university, reviewed Rotherham, and found it so dangerous in it's errrors of traslating, THE MEANING, that he had to say, it was worthless.
Two people here, even disagree with the man at Princeton University. They have that right. So did the local man here, living below a volcano. He is still there, 70 feet below the ash. That was Mount Saint Helens. I live in Oregon. You may do as you wish. You may. You may think as you wish. You may.
And, all of us remember, just exactly where did God say, each must know what everyone else knows?????????????????
I am pretty sure God cares about a person being right and just, but not about extreme accuracy. It is okay if these guys are wrong. It is okay.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina.,

 

[Imagican]

Skipping to the next important bit...

I KNOW why. For Christ to 'take on' the sins of this world, God was, by His very NATURE, forced to ABANDON His Son SO that He COULD 'take on' our sins.

That's a very worldly explanation.
How about this?
Jesus was, and is, both fully God and fully Man. As you said earlier, God can not die...therefore, the spirit of God in Him had to "abandon" Him so that the Man could die.

Oh my, that 'fully God/fully man' thing. So you are offering that Christ was a 'split personality' of sorts? That He wasn't REALLY The Son of God, nor was He really a man. He was some sort of "two headed creature" that YOU call 'God'?

The notion that a Holy God cannot so much as look at sin is really kinda stupid. God says plainly that He is not willing that any should perish, but that all might come to repentance.

He's WILLING. But there is the matter of 'freedom of choice'. He has outlined the CHOICES one MUST make in order to BE 'forgiven'. The FIRST of which is REPENTANCE. Note the word: MIGHT. His will is that all MIGHT come to repentance. He is NOT going to FORCE ANYONE to repent. That is not even a possibility.

He sees our sin, alright...and it makes Him very sad.

In this we agree. I just wonder if you really understand it?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[TheBarrd]

NOPE!!!!!! I have had MANY, (most), try to TELL ME that they don't really CARE what the Bible says, they are going to believe what they WANT to believe regardless. Fortunately I found one that is more than satisfied to put God first in her life and me second. And you'd be amazed how much she's learned concerning the TRUTH.

IOW, you found one of those weak willed silly little bits of chattel that will bow to any man, simply because he is a man. You could be an alcoholic brute, and still she would "recognize" your authority.
I have seen women like her in women's shelters...and in hospitals. And yes, many of them had "Christian" husbands.
God never intended for women to be second class citizens.
The injunction for women to submit to their husbands is very quickly followed by instructions for the husband to love his wife as Christ loves the church. He is to reverence her, not "lord it over" her.
And, did you know? Husband and wife are equals, yes, even in the marriage bed.
I've met a few men with your attitude, yes, even a few Christian men. They tend to be bullies.
And you know what they say...scratch a bully, and you'll find a coward.
Guys with this attitude are generally not very secure in their own manhood.