Really? Trinity?

[TheBarrd]

I tried to communicate with Katerinah and a couple of others here on this topic. They made it PERFECTLY clear that communication, (other than offering insult and insinuation), was NOT their intent. They did NOT want to discuss the TRUTH concerning 'trinity', just spread their ignorance, (and OTHER 'stuff').

So, with this in mind, it's pretty clear that to ATTEMPT to communicate with someone who doesn't WANT to communicate is a WASTED effort. And I'm not going to WASTE any more effort trying to SPEAK to those that refuse to even contemplate the TRUTH. Those that have chosen a path of ignorance aren't likely to CHANGE.

One is a transgendered MAN. Another states they don't even BELIEVE in the Bible. And the other, well, in my opinion, just another 'stooge' so far as 'trinity' is concerned. The first two I don't even think I NEED to point out the likelihood of EVERY seeking the TRUTH. A man that decided to become a WOMAN is SO confused as to the TRUTH of life itself will unlikely EVER listen to anything I have to offer. As far as I'm concerned, they may as well have been ONE of the crowd banging on Lot's door telling him to send out the ANGELS so that they could KNOW them.

A man that openly STATES that he does NOT believe in the Bible, well, obviously WE can NEVER come to any sort of mutual understanding.

And ignorance speaks for itself to anyone with their EYES opened enough to SEE.

And before anyone gets upset over my use of the word: ignorant, allow me to offer this: I am IGNORANT. So far as personal revelation of 'trinity', obviously God has seen fit to LEAVE me ignorant. I have receive NO such PERSONAL revelation. If anything, whatever revelation I have received concerning 'trinity' is that it is UTTERLY man made and doesn't exist in TRUTH.

I opened with some specific statements and questions. It is clear that no one that believes in 'trinity' LIKED them. So instead of trying to dispute what I offered with any EVIDENCE, instead they resorted to character attack and disruption as their method of dealing with it. As it USUALLY is when the subject is brought up.

This has certainly been a REVEALING experience to me. For offering the TRUTH, I have been accused of being 'someone else', a Muslim, PRIDEFUL, and a number of other things that were used in an attempt to create DIVERSION instead of discussion. Not to worry, it is a common tactic among the UNLEARNED when it comes to trying to promote their beliefs. Instead of discussing WHY one believes what they believe, they choose instead to attack anyone that points out the possible fallacy of their beliefs.

The RCC use to BURN people alive as a method of disruption. Fortunately they no longer have the POWER to do such things. Obviously God saw that it was TIME to end the suffering of His Saints and REMOVED such power from the irresponsible hands of those that FELT they could DO such things in the NAME of God's Son.

These THREE that chose to join this conversation obviously don't KNOW me. I noticed that those that DO know me didn't even comment, (not talking about you Duck). In the future, you KNOW me NOW.

So, as far as I'm concerned, I'm THROUGH with this thread. It served NO purpose other than to reveal the hearts of the few that chose to participate. I have been accused of NOT being NICE enough. So be it. If I must talk AROUND issues in order to be nice, or if I must sugar coat the truth in order to be NICE, or if I must pretend to be nothing other than "FULL OF LOVE" in order to be considered NICE, then I don't know if I even WANT to be considered 'nice' by those that demand such requirements of me.

Christ pulled out a whip and started swinging it when He witnessed the LIARS and CHEATS in His Father's house. I guess we shouldn't listen to Him either since SOME could call His behavior 'un-NICE'. Or when Paul threatened to return to Corinth with a ROD, we shouldn't listen to anything he offered either because he wasn't NICE enough.

It is MY belief that 'churches' TRYING to be 'nice' is what's WRONG with the present STATE of the 'church' RIGHT NOW. Instead of making efforts to PLEASE God, they have become pleasers of MEN in order to gain their trust and make merchandise of them. If I'm required to perpetuate lies and PRETEND to love others in order to be considered NICE, then I would RATHER be considered, by THESE: UN-nice.

I refuse to let this be PERSONAL. I understand how difficult it can be to recognize or accept that one's beliefs are FALSE. And I have witnessed MANY TIMES the extent to which one will go in order to HOLD on regardless. It pains me FOR others, rarely am "I" pained BY others. I TRY to maintain a sense of order in the threads I post, but that doesn't mean that I am easily offended. I have been accused of and called MUCH worse by more educated people so the comments that were made against me here were TRIVIAL in truth.

I didn't ASK anyone to LIKE me when I started this thread and I don't ask that anyone LIKE me any MORE now in my closing. I can ONLY HOPE that some of what I've offered is able to SINK in and MAYBE at some time in the future God will see FIT to water it and let it grow. If not, heck, I TRIED.

Blessings,

MEC

Darling, try to calm yourself. Just because others do not agree with you is no reason to throw a temper tantrum.
All that is being asked of you is to consider that you might be...oh...might be...what is that word?....you might be...ah, I remember now...you might be WRONG. You want others to consider that they might be wrong...but you refuse to admit the possibility for yourself. You didn't come to participate in a discussion...you came to tell other folks what to believe.
And this idea that, because you are a guy you must therefore have some authority over me because I am a woman...well, that just doesn't go over at all. You are not my father or my husband...for which I offer my deepest heartfelt thanks to my God...you are just a stranger on the internet Where do you get off, claiming authority over me? No other guy I've ever met on the net has tried to pull that one! You are the first, and I suspect the only man who is that...well, sorry...that foolish. Not that I think you are stupid. Just arrogant as all get out. The only other man I know with that kind of attitude is an atheist...so go figure.

Anyway, I'm sorry you are leaving us. I do urge you to consider the passages I indicated in Samuel and Malachi...among others.
And I pray with all of my heart that one day your eyes will be opened.
The coming of Christ truly was a much bigger deal than you thought...

 

[Imagican]

Did you know, for instance, Magician, that the Jews had thrown God off of the throne of Israel? It is in Samuel...about the eighth chapter, I think. The elders come to Samuel demanding a King...and God says that they have not rejected Samuel, but they have rejected God from being King over them. And He goes on to describe what a human ruler will be like.
So Who is the Rightful King of the Jews? It wasn't Herod the Idumean, was it? No, it was God.
And did you know that it had been foretold that God would appear in His temple, and no one would be able to stand before Him? Go back and re-read Malachi's prophecy about the one crying in the wilderness.
Now, Who appeared in the Temple...both as a Child Who confounded the great minds of His day, and later as a Man Who cleared the forecourt, cleaning it of animals and men who were doing a dishonest business there? And again, who could stand before Him as He did these things? Indeed, the final week of His life He appeared in the Temple every day to teach...and the Priests and Elders could not stop Him. That is why they paid Judas to lead them to Him. And even then, didn't Jesus tell His disciples that, if He had asked, His Father would send a legion of angels to defend Him? He chose to submit, not because He had to, but for our sakes.

Oh, I know I'm not gong to make a dent in your hard head, Magician. However, I must continue to write the truth here, for the sake of others who will come in and read these posts.
As amazing as it seems, God did indeed step down from His throne and come to earth as a Man in order to suffer and die in our place.
I say, do not waste His great sacrifice. God is not willing that any should perish...but that all may come to repentance. And it is not difficult at all. Lay your foolish pride aside, and come to the God Who loves you so much that He did all of this...for you.

Why not REALLY be 'truthful'. YOUR God stepped down from his throne, came to earth as a man in order to suffer and die in your place.

My God did NOT.

For you see, My God CANNOT 'take on the flesh' nor can He SUFFER in the flesh nor DIE. My God is the God of the LIVING, not the God of the DEAD.

Here is what I will offer YOU personally: If you do not wish to suffer, don't being it upon yourself. If you continue to falsely accuse me, I am quite sure that you will bring suffering upon yourself UNTIL you repent. Wait and see.

And how about this as well. When YOU DO realize what it is that you have chosen to DO and how to amend it, do me a favor, LOOK me up and let me know. For it always THRILLS me when someone DOES have their eyes opened so that they can SEE the truth. I forgive you. But I KNOW this, you can't go around professing to be a follower without PAYING the PRICE. Your life is probably a WRECK for ONE reason: you haven't figured this out yet.

Listen, if you are having problems, you know, depression, unhappiness, loneliness, just be OPEN and honest about it. I CAN help. But you have to WANT it first. I can SHOW you why. And by KNOWING why, then it's just a matter of altering the REASON. I sense some DEEP animosity in your words and I am more than willing to do what I'm able to HELP.

You accuse me of being full of pride. I say that your false accusations STEM from the fact that I do not AGREE with you. I'll BET that if I were as adamantly DEFENDING 'trinity' in my posts, you and I would be BUDDIES. You WOULDN'T be falsely accusing me of being PRIDEFUL, you would be ENCOURAGING me with sugary words and patting me on the back.

So do yourself a FAVOR, recognize the difference between AUTHORITY and PRIDE. If you need some help figuring it out, just let me know and I'll do what I can to help.

But, in MY opinion, the FIRST step would be to DELIVER you from that 'spirit of Eve' that I detect. FIRST you would need to WANT understanding before it could be revealed. You gotta ASK, KNOCK or SEEK FIRST.

So, your understanding of the Bible BEGAN when you were 11? Is that correct? What is that, fifth grade? Your understanding of God and His Son through the Bible BEGAN when you were 11? And now you are trying to enjoin a 54 year old MAN in a discussion of the TRUTH as it pertains TO the Bible? Oh my. And you call ME 'prideful'????

I would suggest that you judge YOURSELF according to the SAME means, (method), that you have chosen to judge ME and THEN see if there isn't something askew here.

I thought I was THROUGH with this thread. But I SENSE that there is a REAL need here. To show you JUST how much I DO care, I am more than willing to offer whatever I am able to make things in your life 'better'. Other than offering you FAKE words and FAKE love. Won't DO that. But I have the REAL deal if you're interested. Just let me know.

But in ALL honesty, just LOOK at the effort you are going through in order to try and MAKE ME your enemy. I am NOT. Don't want to be and you can't make me. I love you as much as is possible under the circumstances. I don't really KNOW you, just what you have revealed through your words typed on an internet forum. But i TRULY DO sense that you are not real happy. I THINK I could help you find SOME peace of mind and SOME semblance of joy. But you have to WANT it. NO ONE can GIVE it to you, just LEAD you in the proper direction. But such guidance often IS able to make a difference. You will NEVER know if you don't TRY.

But what I'm NOT going to do anymore is continue this ARGUMENT. If 'making a dent in my head' is your objective, not interested.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[2ducklow]

Ok,

Question:

When the Bible STATES that NO man shall EVER 'see God' and LIVE, does it MEAN what it STATES?

well yea.

Has ANY man EVER 'seen' God Himself and LIVED?

well no.

When Christ STATES that NO MAN has EVER seen GOD at ANY TIME, is this TRUTH?

Yea

So, if these statements are TRUTH, how does one try to interpret Christ's words into meaning something DIFFERENT when He states that those that had seen Him had SEEN God?

well they do it to support Trinity.

Obviously for BOTH sets of statements to be TRUE, they MUST have a DIFFERENT meaning than what 'trinitarians' INSIST that it means.

Yep.

Christ asks, "how LONG have I been among you?". This is a CLUE as to what He REALLY means.

What He is offering to those He made the statement to is THIS:

You have SEEN me heal the blind. Heal those that were crippled from birth. You have SEEN me 'walk on water'. You have witnessed me RAISING the DEAD. You have HEARD the things that I have said. If you DON'T see GOD, MY FATHER in these things, then you must surely be BLIND.

But if NO man has EVER seen God and LIVED. And Christ's words are truth when He states that NO man has EVER 'seen God' at ANY time. Then isn't it OBVIOUS that He was NOT speaking literally, but FIGURATIVELY when He stated that those that had SEEN HIM had SEEN God?

yea.

I have listened to people in THIS conversation state that they SEE God in all the things around them. Yet these SAME persons would indicate that they CAN'T understand that Christ was NOT 'speaking literally' when He made such statements?????????

that's normal

I SAY: EVERY TIME one witnesses an act of TRUE LOVE, they are WITNESSING GOD. for God IS Love.

1 John 4:8

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

So Christ, The Son of God, who STATES that ALL that He DOES and ALL that He says HE LEARNED from His Father, who states He was SENT by God, who prayed to God, who ASKED God, His Father, WHY He abandoned Him upon the cross, who STATES that the Father, (God), is GREATER than the Son. None of this matters. What MATTERS are the few obscure passages that you can USE to turn Christ INTO God Himself???????? Wow.

Yea, that' S
Trinitarian SOP.

You know folks, since Everything was created by GOD, would that make EVERYTHING a PART of God? So in a figurative manner, isn't EVERYTHING that God created: GOD?

I don't think I can go along with that line of thought.

If Christ, The Son, and God the Father being ONE makes them the SAME. What about US? What about when WE become ONE with Christ? Are we THEN Christ ourselves? Or when we become ONE with God, are we then God ourselves?

well actually Christ means the anointed one, and Christians are God's christs. but no being one with God and Christ doesn't make us God.

Does ANYONE that professes to believe in 'trinity' have ANY conception of 'allegory'?

Yea they do, but they don't have any concept of allegory that contradicts Trinity.

If so. Do you believe that there is ANY such allegory offered in the Bible. Is ANYTHING every offered in a manner not MEANT to be literal, but allegorical?

well yea they would agree, just so long as the topic wasn't trinity.

I offer that if one is unable to tell the difference, then any POSSIBLE 'deeper understanding' is utterly destroyed. That's the BIGGEST problem with NEWER versions of the Bible. While the authors SAY they have simply tried to make it EASIER to read, the TRUTH is that they ALTER the words to the point that sentences that may have the ability to bring DOZENS of pieces of understanding down to ONE SPECIFIC piece as determined by the interpreter.

And it's the SAME with allegory. If you are incapable of UNDERSTANDING it, and end up taking it LITERAL, you ELIMINATE all the REST of the intended UNDERSTANDING and BLIND yourself even the possibility. Once you take it upon yourself to take something offer allegorically and determine that it has ONE specific and literal meaning, you MISS the INTENDED message or even MANY MESSAGES.

I have read the Bible COMPLETELY, first page to last, more times than I remember. And EVERY time I read it again, I come to DEEPER understanding. What I THOUGHT a sentence MEANT the time I read it before, often has an even DEEPER meaning than what I THOUGHT it meant before. My FIRST meaning doesn't CHANGE, it simply becomes DEEPER.

It's like LEARNING to do anything. The first time you attempt to do something you invariably find it difficult and limited when it comes to reading instructions. Sometimes the words just don't make as much sense until AFTER you actually KNOW what they MEAN. You read something, and it just doesn't seem to fit what it is you're trying to DO. But after you KNOW what you are doing, go back and read the instructions again, the words THEN make PERFECT sense.

It's no different than watching a movie. The CLUES are there throughout the movie, sometimes you 'get it' BEFORE the ending is revealed. But sometimes it TAKES the revelation of the END in order to be able to SEE all the CLUES offered throughout the ENTIRE movie. If you watch it a SECOND time, all the intricate details THEN make PERFECT sense.

The Bible is very much...........JUST LIKE THAT. Things that offer an inkling of understanding, the MORE you read THE BIBLE, begin to take on DEEPER and DEEPER meanings.

But if you SHUT out the possibility of deeper understanding being POSSIBLE by accepting a SPECIFIC understanding BEFORE you REALLY have ANY understanding, you KEEP yourself from DEEPER understanding.

"Trinity" DOES this VERY THING. It is a set of RULES that once one accepts them, LIMITS all the OTHER deeper understanding that exists within the Word. If you accept 'trinity' then you CANNOT believe or understand that Christ WAS/IS a 'created being'. Created by God, IN THE BEGINNING. If you accept 'trinity', you are forced to believe that God CAN die. If you accept 'trinity' you are forced to BELIEVE that mathematics means NOTHING. You are forced to believe that 1 + 1 + 1 CAN equal ONE. When even a first grader KNOWS that the answer is THREE. And I offer what many others of the past have offered as well: If I can teach you that BLUE is actually RED, once you submit to such 'brainwashing', at that point I can get you to believe JUST ABOUT ANYTHING. And it is the same with 'trinity'. If I can teach you that one plus one plus one equals ONE and get you to BELIEVE it, at that point I can teach you just about ANYTHING and get you to believe it. That is EXACTLY what the RCC did. They CREATED a 'god' of their OWN design and then taught by FORCE, all under their control to accept it. The evidence is there. All you have do is ACCEPT it. The Catholic Church, for well over a THOUSAND YEARS, tortured and MURDERED any and ALL that they deemed a threat to THEIR teachings. They withheld the Word as long as HUMANLY possible. This 'church' encouraged the STEALING of God from any and everyone that HAD any. Not only those Indian tribes of Central and South America, but from any OTHER country they were at war with at the time. They went on Crusades designed to DESTROY the infidels JUST LIKE Islam is at war with the INFIDELS this very day. They did ALL these 'things' in the name of THEIR created GOD: Jesus Christ.

Matthew 7:

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


If Christ NEVER KNEW them, they NEVER KNEW Christ. They were simply USING His NAME.


And this is EXACTLY what the RCC did. Not EVERY member FORCED to be a part of the congregation. There HAVE been some members of the Catholic Church that have FOUND the truth. But the CLERGY, the DOGMA and DOCTRINE of the RCC was of their OWN design. The 'trinity' and the GOD that it created was THEIR 'creation'. It was NOT offered by God at ANY TIME throughout the ENTIRE history of the relationship of God with mankind. It took HUNDREDS of years AFTER the RCC hijacked 'Christianity' to actually EVOLVE into what it has become. It started with MAN MADE LAWS. Christ FREED us from the LAW and when ROME hijacked Christianity, they put men RIGHT BACK under laws written on PAPER instead of STONE.


If God's laws had been truly written upon their hearts, they couldn't have DONE the things that they DID. History PROVES that these people didn't even KNOW Christ, much less FOLLOW the TEACHINGS of Christ. They created their OWN Christ and forced everyone under their control to follow that 'Christ' of THEIR design. And the design is what has become 'trinity'.


Blessings,


MEC

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
I have no idea on how to respond.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina.,

Job saw God and lived.
Abraham saw God and lived.
Moses saw God and lived.
Paul saw God (I think) and lived.
I think there were others.

Each was changed by that. Each was changed.

 

[TheBarrd]

Why not REALLY be 'truthful'. YOUR God stepped down from his throne, came to earth as a man in order to suffer and die in your place.

My God did NOT.

For you see, My God CANNOT 'take on the flesh' nor can He SUFFER in the flesh nor DIE. My God is the God of the LIVING, not the God of the DEAD.

And here all this time I was sure there was only ONE God.
Maybe we forgot to tell you....Jesus is NOT dead...He rose from the dead.

Here is what I will offer YOU personally: If you do not wish to suffer, don't being it upon yourself. If you continue to falsely accuse me, I am quite sure that you will bring suffering upon yourself UNTIL you repent. Wait and see.

First of all, I have not "falsely accused" anyone. You are prideful...just this bit of your post is loaded with pride.
Secondly, you seem to think that somehow, you have some special standing with God that others do not. I will suffer because of you, but you, of course, will not suffer because of me? Did you not claim an authority over me that you do not have?
But God will always be God.

And how about this as well. When YOU DO realize what it is that you have chosen to DO and how to amend it, do me a favor, LOOK me up and let me know. For it always THRILLS me when someone DOES have their eyes opened so that they can SEE the truth. I forgive you. But I KNOW this, you can't go around professing to be a follower without PAYING the PRICE. Your life is probably a WRECK for ONE reason: you haven't figured this out yet.

You know nothing whatsoever about my life. Actually, I am a very happy lady. I am surrounded by my kids and grandkids and very much loved. What more could anyone ask for?
And I have an adorable little dog who is a great joy to me.
I own my own home...it isn't a mansion, but it is comfortable, and I own the empty lot next to my house.
I get along very well with my neighbors, thanks for asking...
And I am a much loved member of a happy congregation.
Sorry, but my life is not a "WRECK" as you like to assume.
I am very blessed.

Listen, if you are having problems, you know, depression, unhappiness, loneliness, just be OPEN and honest about it. I CAN help. But you have to WANT it first. I can SHOW you why. And by KNOWING why, then it's just a matter of altering the REASON. I sense some DEEP animosity in your words and I am more than willing to do what I'm able to HELP.

Gosh, thanks. If I ever do have such problems, I'll look you up.

You accuse me of being full of pride. I say that your false accusations STEM from the fact that I do not AGREE with you. I'll BET that if I were as adamantly DEFENDING 'trinity' in my posts, you and I would be BUDDIES. You WOULDN'T be falsely accusing me of being PRIDEFUL, you would be ENCOURAGING me with sugary words and patting me on the back.

Probably not. I'm thinking you'd still be a male chauvinist...um....oink oink...
And even if you came to the truth, that Jesus is indeed our Emmanuel, you'd still have that problem...at least until Jesus managed to correct you.
And I would still object to some guy on the internet...if you are even a guy...daring to try to usurp authority over me that only Christ has.

So do yourself a FAVOR, recognize the difference between AUTHORITY and PRIDE. If you need some help figuring it out, just let me know and I'll do what I can to help.

My, you're just full of help, aren't you? Thank you, my parents already taught me about both of those things. That is how I can recognize that you are full of pride, and have no authority whatsoever over me.

But, in MY opinion, the FIRST step would be to DELIVER you from that 'spirit of Eve' that I detect. FIRST you would need to WANT understanding before it could be revealed. You gotta ASK, KNOCK or SEEK FIRST.

"spirit of Eve"??????? Oh, you are cute, aren't you? And, I guess you don't need to be delivered from the "spirit of Adam"????? Darling, again, thanks for your generous offer...but no, thanks.

So, your understanding of the Bible BEGAN when you were 11? Is that correct? What is that, fifth grade? Your understanding of God and His Son through the Bible BEGAN when you were 11? And now you are trying to enjoin a 54 year old MAN in a discussion of the TRUTH as it pertains TO the Bible? Oh my. And you call ME 'prideful'????

Darling, I am actually ten years older than you. You didn't bother to find out my age before this foolish statement. Again, you reveal your pride, in this statement.
And I was in fourth grade at the time, actually. I had already discovered Shakespeare...The Merchant of Venice, to be exact...so the aulde language was no problem for me.
And I said that was the first time I read it through...you should have read the entire post. I didn't say it was the only time I read it.

So, when did you first read it? Have you been reading and studying it through most of your life, as I have? Or are you a newbie?

I would suggest that you judge YOURSELF according to the SAME means, (method), that you have chosen to judge ME and THEN see if there isn't something askew here.

Darling, it is not up to me to judge you, any more than it is up to you to judge me.
My perception of you is that you are full of pride. If you want to call that a judgment, that's fine.
Are you judging me with your snide remarks about "the spirit of Eve"?

I thought I was THROUGH with this thread. But I SENSE that there is a REAL need here. To show you JUST how much I DO care, I am more than willing to offer whatever I am able to make things in your life 'better'. Other than offering you FAKE words and FAKE love. Won't DO that. But I have the REAL deal if you're interested. Just let me know.

I would like to show you what REAL love is. You will find it in Christ Jesus.
Let me share with you my favorite...well one of my favorite...passages from the Bible.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Now this commandment comes from Someone Who truly does have authority over me...and you, too.
I recognize His authority to give commandments.
Do you?

But in ALL honesty, just LOOK at the effort you are going through in order to try and MAKE ME your enemy. I am NOT. Don't want to be and you can't make me. I love you as much as is possible under the circumstances. I don't really KNOW you, just what you have revealed through your words typed on an internet forum. But i TRULY DO sense that you are not real happy. I THINK I could help you find SOME peace of mind and SOME semblance of joy. But you have to WANT it. NO ONE can GIVE it to you, just LEAD you in the proper direction. But such guidance often IS able to make a difference. You will NEVER know if you don't TRY.

You are attributing motives to me that I never even thought of. It was never my intention to make you my enemy.
Only to show you what you are missing. The effort I am going through is out of love, my friend...you need to know the truth.

I already am following One Who truly can lead me in the proper direction.
And you'd be amazed at the difference that One has made in my life.
However, thank you again for your kind offer. However, the position of Leader in my life has been filled.

But what I'm NOT going to do anymore is continue this ARGUMENT. If 'making a dent in my head' is your objective, not interested.[/quote]

LOL...making a dent in your head? Hun, all I'm trying to do is to stop you from beating your head against a brick wall. However, if you insist, all I can say is...good luck with that.
I am very sorry that you are still stuck in your idea of Who Jesus really is.
So were the priests and elders of His day...you know...the men in authority?

Blessings,

MEC [/quote]

 

[2ducklow]

Does anyone see anything wrong with this sentence?


I'm not accusing you of anything, you are full of pride.


a little later and I'm still laughing.

But then I actually do have a dent in my skull.

 

[katerinah1947]

And here all this time I was sure there was only ONE God.
Maybe we forgot to tell you....Jesus is NOT dead...He rose from the dead.



First of all, I have not "falsely accused" anyone. You are prideful...just this bit of your post is loaded with pride.
Secondly, you seem to think that somehow, you have some special standing with God that others do not. I will suffer because of you, but you, of course, will not suffer because of me? Did you not claim an authority over me that you do not have?
But God will always be God.



You know nothing whatsoever about my life. Actually, I am a very happy lady. I am surrounded by my kids and grandkids and very much loved. What more could anyone ask for?
And I have an adorable little dog who is a great joy to me.
I own my own home...it isn't a mansion, but it is comfortable, and I own the empty lot next to my house.
I get along very well with my neighbors, thanks for asking...
And I am a much loved member of a happy congregation.
Sorry, but my life is not a "WRECK" as you like to assume.
I am very blessed.



Gosh, thanks. If I ever do have such problems, I'll look you up.



Probably not. I'm thinking you'd still be a male chauvinist...um....oink oink...
And even if you came to the truth, that Jesus is indeed our Emmanuel, you'd still have that problem...at least until Jesus managed to correct you.
And I would still object to some guy on the internet...if you are even a guy...daring to try to usurp authority over me that only Christ has.



My, you're just full of help, aren't you? Thank you, my parents already taught me about both of those things. That is how I can recognize that you are full of pride, and have no authority whatsoever over me.



"spirit of Eve"??????? Oh, you are cute, aren't you? And, I guess you don't need to be delivered from the "spirit of Adam"????? Darling, again, thanks for your generous offer...but no, thanks.



Darling, I am actually ten years older than you. You didn't bother to find out my age before this foolish statement. Again, you reveal your pride, in this statement.
And I was in fourth grade at the time, actually. I had already discovered Shakespeare...The Merchant of Venice, to be exact...so the aulde language was no problem for me.
And I said that was the first time I read it through...you should have read the entire post. I didn't say it was the only time I read it.

So, when did you first read it? Have you been reading and studying it through most of your life, as I have? Or are you a newbie?



Darling, it is not up to me to judge you, any more than it is up to you to judge me.
My perception of you is that you are full of pride. If you want to call that a judgment, that's fine.
Are you judging me with your snide remarks about "the spirit of Eve"?



I would like to show you what REAL love is. You will find it in Christ Jesus.
Let me share with you my favorite...well one of my favorite...passages from the Bible.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Now this commandment comes from Someone Who truly does have authority over me...and you, too.
I recognize His authority to give commandments.
Do you?



You are attributing motives to me that I never even thought of. It was never my intention to make you my enemy.
Only to show you what you are missing. The effort I am going through is out of love, my friend...you need to know the truth.

I already am following One Who truly can lead me in the proper direction.
And you'd be amazed at the difference that One has made in my life.
However, thank you again for your kind offer. However, the position of Leader in my life has been filled.

But what I'm NOT going to do anymore is continue this ARGUMENT. If 'making a dent in my head' is your objective, not interested.

LOL...making a dent in your head? Hun, all I'm trying to do is to stop you from beating your head against a brick wall. However, if you insist, all I can say is...good luck with that.
I am very sorry that you are still stuck in your idea of Who Jesus really is.
So were the priests and elders of His day...you know...the men in authority?

Blessings,

MEC [/quote][/QUOTE]

Hi,
The amazing feelings I have when you try and fight the same kind of people who said: Crucify Him. Crucify Him. in the time of Jesus, is at this moment in tears and not words.
I also feel why God is loving you right now. I do.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina.,

Pride? What a word. His line of thinking is actually unimaginable to me. I am grateful for you. I am grateful that you are taking on, someone like him, but can anyone now, make a dent in him, but the God of you and the God of me?
Jesus once said, that people in the world should handle people in the world, so I cannot do that, because other than having my body reside here, my heart and my thoughts have completely merged into Him.
I will not bother telling you which Him but for you my relationship with Jesus is entirely what it would be, if I were not nuts nor deceived. It is for you, that I say more now.
My relationship with the Holy Spirit, is entirely what it should be if I am who I say I am.
My relationship, before I tell you as a blessing what you already might know, with Mary is also correct, if I am who I say I am, and in God's view of things for those who are also here, listening in. In God's view of things.
Now, something that you might know. I will say it any way. My relationships, notice plural, are what they should be, with all of God's Children.
I will not say more here, but if you know how those relationships are, if I am who I say I am, then with all that God owns, my relationship is what it should be there also, and it is.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina.,

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
I suppose if I were trying to talk to anyone like him, I would note that the only person who was like him, probably only with one flaw, just like Job, would in fact have to see God, yes like I did and yes, totally without any Biblical prohibitions, without any.
Only one of Jobs friends was righty about Job. He told Job, you must accept the good and the bad from God. He was the only one later, who God did not correct. As Job was very adamant about his being right and God being wrong, his other two friends spoke quite erroneously about God, but God loving Job, would later not have then killed, as Job would lose two friens which he valued in ways so great, that when they critized him incorrectly Job merely told them they were wrong.
Finally, God shows up and speaks to him. Firstly Job does not see God, then he does. Instantly upon seeing God, he knows he is wrong about God hurting Him. Instantly, he knows that. He recants. He knows because that is what happened to Paul. Seeing God gives the seer information, about God. Job saw God and had so much information he wrote about that, after wards.
Notice that after he saw God, he wrote what happened in heaven, and God's angel Satan, was called on his fallacious words. (False words). It went something like this in normal parlance (speech): "What have you been doing?" Satan: "I have been patrolling the earth" God: "Did you see my man Job? He is the best of the best down there. He actually does everything he can to do what I want him to do. That is one incredible human" Satan:"Oh yeah! That's becasuse you give him lots of stuff. If you didn't give him all those things, he would not say nice things about you anymore." (Satan is now totally set up. God is going to call him on his words. He is going to be chastised by God. Watch. Watch.) God:"Okay prove it. You may take away all those gifts. You are not allowed to kill him, nor harm him. And remember his wife is one with him, so she is not to be hamed either. Prove your words. You were not on the earth patrolling the earth. I know that. You know that. Go prove your words that you know more than I do. Prove your words are true. Go." Another time passes, all the sons of God are before him again, Satan not ever said to be one, is there also. The conversation starts again. God "Have you seen my man Job. He did not say nasty things about me, when you took away all of his things. I even have his children up here with me." Satan trying to recover somehow from being shown up by God The Father "That's because he is healty. If he weren't healthy then he would curse you." God:"Okay have it your way. Take away his health. You may not kill him though." Job was able to write all of that, of course the way it was said and no in the way I said that using a common language. Notice after seeing God, Job now knew what happened in heaven.
Notice it took God himself to finally get to Job about one error. On one error only which is not knowing something correctly about God, God corrected Job and for all time, but it took a personal visit by God, so Job could see God as He Is and not how he merely had read about him in the past. It took that for Job to correct his ways. Job was the best in his day, at doing everything correct for what he had read. He was the best. God said so. Yet, Job still had errors.
Yes, God could have waited upon Job's death on earth, to show Himself to Job, to correct his error. He did not do that. I am personally glad He did not, else we would not know these wonderful things about God.
Did you all know Job like that? Did you know that only two of Job's friends were wrong about God, while the other one was not?
Did you all know that God doubled everything Job had after he had used Job to tell us wonderful things. See the depth of God in what is to be said next. Did you notice that in order for Job's children to be doubled like everything else God gave him for his troubles, the only way that can be true, is if Job's children that were alive on earth when Satan had them killed, were still alive somewhere else. More depth. Notice Job after seeing God never complained to God, about the children that were alive to him on earth. Is that because Job also knows but is not saying, that he knows they are still alive, along with the extra children God gave him??? Look at the depths of God, that nothing He does is without that.
Notice. Are then unidimensional statements allowed with God, when for everything he says, there is always like a pefume, many places it goes, and many things it does?
It may be that the two here, who we are talking to, are indeed like Job, very perfect, very perfect, very careful to do all God says, very careful, very diligent and work for Him also. very dilegent and work for Him also, but is it also true, they know one thing wrong, one thing wrong, maybe more, but that like with Job, until they see God in some fashion or another, they will not learn that error of theirs, which all of us see, but they do not?
Is that them. Is that them?
LOVE and love,
...Kateriana., .... .

I noticed how hard it is for me to cross both worlds, in writing. Much of what is above bridges two worlds. The world of God I love in, and the world of this that I live and love in also.
LOVE and love. If that is not clear, try this. I sometimes only write what God, The Holy Spirit puts into me. ~In those moments if I need to talk to others, I have to put up these marks ~~, they tell me of my not needing to be so formal with God, that I am talking with him, and as such use all of my normal rules imposed upon me, by that relationship.~
Someone has just come over. They would like me to do something with them. I am cutting this short.
...Katie.,

 

[TheBarrd]

Hi,
I suppose if I were trying to talk to anyone like him, I would note that the only person who was like him, probably only with one flaw, just like Job, would in fact have to see God, yes like I did and yes, totally without any Biblical prohibitions, without any.
Only one of Jobs friends was righty about Job. He told Job, you must accept the good and the bad from God. He was the only one later, who God did not correct. As Job was very adamant about his being right and God being wrong, his other two friends spoke quite erroneously about God, but God loving Job, would later not have then killed, as Job would lose two friens which he valued in ways so great, that when they critized him incorrectly Job merely told them they were wrong.
Finally, God shows up and speaks to him. Firstly Job does not see God, then he does. Instantly upon seeing God, he knows he is wrong about God hurting Him. Instantly, he knows that. He recants. He knows because that is what happened to Paul. Seeing God gives the seer information, about God. Job saw God and had so much information he wrote about that, after wards.
Notice that after he saw God, he wrote what happened in heaven, and God's angel Satan, was called on his fallacious words. (False words). It went something like this in normal parlance (speech): "What have you been doing?" Satan: "I have been patrolling the earth" God: "Did you see my man Job? He is the best of the best down there. He actually does everything he can to do what I want him to do. That is one incredible human" Satan:"Oh yeah! That's becasuse you give him lots of stuff. If you didn't give him all those things, he would not say nice things about you anymore." (Satan is now totally set up. God is going to call him on his words. He is going to be chastised by God. Watch. Watch.) God:"Okay prove it. You may take away all those gifts. You are not allowed to kill him, nor harm him. And remember his wife is one with him, so she is not to be hamed either. Prove your words. You were not on the earth patrolling the earth. I know that. You know that. Go prove your words that you know more than I do. Prove your words are true. Go." Another time passes, all the sons of God are before him again, Satan not ever said to be one, is there also. The conversation starts again. God "Have you seen my man Job. He did not say nasty things about me, when you took away all of his things. I even have his children up here with me." Satan trying to recover somehow from being shown up by God The Father "That's because he is healty. If he weren't healthy then he would curse you." God:"Okay have it your way. Take away his health. You may not kill him though." Job was able to write all of that, of course the way it was said and no in the way I said that using a common language. Notice after seeing God, Job now knew what happened in heaven.
Notice it took God himself to finally get to Job about one error. On one error only which is not knowing something correctly about God, God corrected Job and for all time, but it took a personal visit by God, so Job could see God as He Is and not how he merely had read about him in the past. It took that for Job to correct his ways. Job was the best in his day, at doing everything correct for what he had read. He was the best. God said so. Yet, Job still had errors.
Yes, God could have waited upon Job's death on earth, to show Himself to Job, to correct his error. He did not do that. I am personally glad He did not, else we would not know these wonderful things about God.
Did you all know Job like that? Did you know that only two of Job's friends were wrong about God, while the other one was not?
Did you all know that God doubled everything Job had after he had used Job to tell us wonderful things. See the depth of God in what is to be said next. Did you notice that in order for Job's children to be doubled like everything else God gave him for his troubles, the only way that can be true, is if Job's children that were alive on earth when Satan had them killed, were still alive somewhere else. More depth. Notice Job after seeing God never complained to God, about the children that were alive to him on earth. Is that because Job also knows but is not saying, that he knows they are still alive, along with the extra children God gave him??? Look at the depths of God, that nothing He does is without that.
Notice. Are then unidimensional statements allowed with God, when for everything he says, there is always like a pefume, many places it goes, and many things it does?
It may be that the two here, who we are talking to, are indeed like Job, very perfect, very perfect, very careful to do all God says, very careful, very diligent and work for Him also. very dilegent and work for Him also, but is it also true, they know one thing wrong, one thing wrong, maybe more, but that like with Job, until they see God in some fashion or another, they will not learn that error of theirs, which all of us see, but they do not?
Is that them. Is that them?
LOVE and love,
...Kateriana., .... .

I noticed how hard it is for me to cross both worlds, in writing. Much of what is above bridges two worlds. The world of God I love in, and the world of this that I live and love in also.
LOVE and love. If that is not clear, try this. I sometimes only write what God, The Holy Spirit puts into me. ~In those moments if I need to talk to others, I have to put up these marks ~~, they tell me of my not needing to be so formal with God, that I am talking with him, and as such use all of my normal rules imposed upon me, by that relationship.~
Someone has just come over. They would like me to do something with them. I am cutting this short.
...Katie.,

I understand. It is hard for me to write about my experiences with God as well.
And...my daughter has been here all day with her three kids, so I've been busy.

Anyhow, Katerina, thank you.

 

[katerinah1947]

I understand. It is hard for me to write about my experiences with God as well.
And...my daughter has been here all day with her three kids, so I've been busy.

Anyhow, Katerina, thank you.

Hi,
Remember dear. I have been told about you also, and what I have been told you prove in your writings. You are amazing. I feel at times, that it I that is writing, and not you, it is that way in feelings, that you know Him, just like I do.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina.,

 

[TheBarrd]

S

So, your understanding of the Bible BEGAN when you were 11? Is that correct? What is that, fifth grade? Your understanding of God and His Son through the Bible BEGAN when you were 11? And now you are trying to enjoin a 54 year old MAN in a discussion of the TRUTH as it pertains TO the Bible? Oh my. And you call ME 'prideful'????

I just had to come back and address this accusation more fully. I want you to seriously think about what you are saying.
I was changing my little brother's diapers when I was no more than seven. In other words, I'm old enough to have changed yours.
Yes, Magician, you were one year old when my understanding of the Bible BEGAN. Just learning to walk and talk. And you were probably a cute li'l pest, too.
And I've read it through, cover to cover, at least once a year every year since.
You are ten years younger than I am. And evidently much older than eleven when your own understanding of the Bible BEGAN, since you seem to think that eleven is too young.
I've been reading and studying my Bible for some 53 years...and you know more than I do? Yes, Hun, I call you prideful.
Think about your answer...

Oh, and before you think about claiming authority over me again, or trying to "deliver me" from "the spirit of Eve"...remember that I am old enough to have spanked your little bottom.

You do not impress me, Luv. I see you as the one who needs help. Is your life a "wreck"? Are you depressed, or unhappy, or lonely? Because I can really help you. If you will let me.

 

[katerinah1947]

(ISR)

Dearest Ron, I think you are above their heads. They choose to not understand you or they do not. I will between the lines say what I think you are saying to them.

20“So then, by their fruits you shall know them –
(these mean guy are not promoting Christ, and they are not of God, by the very words of Jesus, they are convicted of being against Jesus.)



21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens.
(Ah yes they talk and they say, they use words from the bible on this and that, they tell that evil Kate, she must abate, or else their God will hate, that girl, the Kate. But, God is not like that you see, not Kate, but haters will be turned away, you see fancy words do not impress God, it is love and love in heart that he sees, for men the same is true, their actions reveal thier hearts, and you guys are cruel. What will you do next, ague with God, who will win, in your minds, you I suppose, but the words above oppose your words, God for you actions, might just oppose you. Listen or not. It is up to you.)



22“Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’

Clear. Totall clear.

23“And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’

Clear. Totally clear.

22But you have drawn near to Mount Tsiyon and to the city of the living Elohim, to the heavenly Yerushalayim, to myriads of messengers,

????> Sorry.

23to the entire gathering and assembly of the first-born having been enrolled in heaven, and to Elohim the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

Ah! Now I understand.

24and to יהושע the Mediatora of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling which speaks better than the blood of Heḇel.d

I think I still do.

3who being the brightness of the esteem and the exact representation of His substance, and sustaining all by the word of His power, having made a cleansing of our sins through Himself, sat down at the right hand of the Greatness on high,

Okay. Okay, You are being incredibly Trinitarian here. Nice. Like wow, and although almost not once Have I seen these words, I feel them and know, what they mean. Jesus will be sitting at the right hand of His Father, when The Judgement of His Father takes place. That is two persons, but two here say even two cannot be. They insist, that they know, they insist we believe, and yet it is they who are in need of God, of thee Ron, of TheBaard, but notme, no not me, why would they want one who saw, who sees, the God of Thee, surely they know more than I see, surely they are the God they see. Is that it, is it they they see and is it they, they feel, is it they they say is the God of Thee, is the God of me, is the God of TheBaard, the God of Ron that he, is it they, they see, is it them, as the God of us three, that we??? Death is more reward than that. Maybe they will take that back. Lets see, lets wait, not on us, but the God of we. What will the God of we, do with those. What will he do. He has sent us. Sent us to say, and hope and pray, for a little of God as He is, to be gained that way.
I wonder, but I hope, the story on Job helps, it may be only one thing they lack, no two, no three, One is knowing God, the other is acting like their boss Jesus, the third is a child's heart, it is those maybe, maybe all three.

LOVE and love,
...Katerina.,

It may sound mean what I just said, and it may be a little mean, so if it does sound mean please change it, to what is should be, and that is a plea to thee, a plea to see, more deeply. Yes, males, as I cannot ever say Gentlemen to either of you until you change, and note your actions make you weak, for the strongest men in battle are all tender and mild, they are, they are, all the top soldiers are tender and mild, try and understand that truth, now yes men, I am pleading with thee like your mother, please change, please see the light, as if you do not someday, God Himself will make you do that, before you can ever come into His companionship, and your words do not work with Him, only your actions do, only your actions, and yours are abysmal so far, they are abysmal.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina.

 

[TheBarrd]

Okay. Okay, You are being incredibly Trinitarian here. Nice. Like wow, and although almost not once Have I seen these words, I feel them and know, what they mean. Jesus will be sitting at the right hand of His Father, when The Judgement of His Father takes place. That is two persons, but two here say even two cannot be. They insist, that they know, they insist we believe, and yet it is they who are in need of God, of thee Ron, of TheBaard, but notme, no not me, why would they want one who saw, who sees, the God of Thee, surely they know more than I see, surely they are the God they see. Is that it, is it they the see and they, they feel, is it they they say is the God of Thee, is the God of me, is the God of TheBaard, the God of she, is it they, they see, them, as the God of us???
I wonder, but I hope, the story on Job helps, it may be only one thing they lack, no two, no three, One is knowing God, the other is acting like their boss Jesus, the third is a child's heart, it is those maybe, maybe all three.

LOVE and love,
...Katerina.,

It may sound mean what I just said, and it may be a little mean, so if it does sound mean please change it, to what is should be, and that is a plea to thee, a plea to see, more deeply. Yes, males, as I cannot ever say Gentlemen to either of you until you change, and note your actions make you weak, for the strongest men in battle are all tender and mild, they are, they are, all the top soldiers are tender and mild, try and understand that truth, now yes men, I am pleading with thee like your mother, please change, please see the light, as if you do not someday, God Himself will make you do that, before you can ever come into His companionship, and your words do not work with Him, only your actions do, only your actions, and yours are abysmal so far, they are abysmal.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina.

The strongest, most macho guy to ever live was also tender and mild. He was Man enough to go to the cross for us. Yet He was overflowing with love. Kids loved Him and wanted to be near Him. He compared the royal robes of King Solomon with the flowers of the field.
Katerina is quite right...this male chauvinist snorting that some of you guys are doing...you know who you are Magician...well, it is rude, crude, and none too shrewd. It is not the way a Christian ought to behave.
Did you not read that in Christ, there is no male or female, we are all one in Him?
You can quit flexing your muscles at us, boys, and relax. We love you anyway...

 

[ron4shua]

who being the brightness of the esteem and the exact representation of His substance,

our sins through Himself, sat down at the right hand of the Greatness on high,

 

[katerinah1947]

The strongest, most macho guy to ever live was also tender and mild. He was Man enough to go to the cross for us. Yet He was overflowing with love. Kids loved Him and wanted to be near Him. He compared the royal robes of King Solomon with the flowers of the field.
Katerina is quite right...this male chauvinist snorting that some of you guys are doing...you know who you are Magician...well, it is rude, crude, and none too shrewd. It is not the way a Christian ought to behave.
Did you not read that in Christ, there is no male or female, we are all one in Him?
You can quit flexing your muscles at us, boys, and relax. We love you anyway...

Hi,
I will add to this of TheBaard. First ~after Jesus personally revealed his core personality to me, which he is tender and mild, but amazingly largely so beyond three measures of infinity.~ I came back home, and the first time I saw ~The exposed Eucharist and now have instilled knowledge in me, I looked at instantly upon entering the room and said to myslef. "Oh! The Big Bad God of The Universe is Tender and Mild". I was so surprised. Who ever, not me, would have ever thougth that about God, had He, Jesus not revealed that to me, in Medjugorje.~ Later as I looked for the characteristic, I found it in all true men, all of the toughest of the tough are sweet. Now for you guys, and please although I am putting this here to show something in men who are tender and mild, it is a horror what they had to do for you and me. I am one of them, but in different areas of life. I have more experience in combat, than one of them, he has only 165 confirmed sniper kills, and less than the other one, with 300 confirmed sniper kills, but each of these men are sweet as we women use that word, they are tender and mild, yet they are some of the best. All the truest warriors are that way. How much combat experience do you guys have and if you do have combat experience, you are not like these guys, rather you are the ones that cause combat to have to take place in the first place. There are only three kinds of pull the trigger types those with PTSD, those that cause PTSD, and those who are immune because they are not bright enough, not imaginative enough, to understand what happened when it happened, and are thus blessed by that.
I am so tender and mild, except in combat, except in that, there I am just emotionless, for days earlier I killed myself off Psychologically, so fear is no part of my job then, since I am already dead, I have nothing to fear, and all of us do that, but normally it hapens in the instant before, not days before, and as many times as I have had to kill myself off, (a needed act of violence each time), I still am tender and mild as soon as I can recover. It can take up to eighteen months to do that. Are you like that? Are you like me? If so, act like it please.
LOVE and love,
...Katerina.,

 

[TheBarrd]

who being the brightness of the esteem and the exact representation of His substance,

our sins through Himself, sat down at the right hand of the Greatness on high,

what's your point, Ron?

 

[2ducklow]

1902 Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (EBR)

Hebrews 1



hebs.1:3 Who, being an eradiated brightness of his glory, and an exact representation of his very being, also bearing up all things by the utterance of his power, purification of sins, having achieved, sat down on the right hand of the majesty in high places:


brightness of his glory means Jesus had his daddy's glory, not that Jesus was his daddy.

an exact representation of his very being means Jesus always did the Father' will and not his own will. it doesn't mean that a representation is the thing it represents.

having sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high means Jesus is sitting on the right hand of the one and only true God, God the Father. It doesn't mean that the one sitting on the right hand of God is God.

so hebs 1.3 is excellent proof that Jesus is not God.

 

[katerinah1947]

Regarding the other renderings mentioned above, only Romans 3:17 is improved somewhat in the edition of 1897, where it reads, "And way of peace have they not known" [sic]. But this is also unsatisfactory. It seems that Rotherham recognized that the indefinite article "a" did not belong before "way of peace" in his translation, but he still refuses to use the definite article "the," because he is determined not to use the definite article in English where there is none in the Greek. The result is a pointlessly ungrammatical rendering.

Problems like the ones pointed out here are very frequent in Rotherham's version of the Bible. It is quite obviously the work of an amateur, who began the work without much knowledge of the Greek language or of the cultural background of the New Testament, who adopted a rigidly mechanical procedure of translation (such as a school-boy might use), in which certain interlinear-style glosses are arbitrarily employed. It betrays in many places an insensitivity to the contextual meaning of Greek words and constructions. With its marks of emphasis, the version often does give accurate information about the emphasis belonging to Greek phrases, and it might be used for discovering that information while reading another version. But we cannot recommend the translation itself for any purpose.

 

[2ducklow]

Trinitarians don't like Rotherham's version because Rotherham leaves medieval and modern concepts out of his translation. They prefer highly modified versions, like the KJV, that try and squeeze trinity and Jesus is God into the bible. although they don't succeed, they do succeed in making the word of God look like at times that God is suggesting that Jesus is god.

The Emphasized Bible is one of the most innovative and thoroughly researched translations ever done by a single individual. Its presentation of emphases and grammatical features of the original language still reward careful study.1" "A strictly literal rendering may not be so pleasant to the ear as one where the apparent sense is chiefly aimed at, yet it is not euphony but truth that ought to be sought. There are tens of thousands departures from the original text in the current versions. There are about two thousand instances in the New Testament where the definite article (the) is omitted. Verbal inspiration can be the least practical use to those who depend upon those versions" (Young's preface). The Rotherham Emphasized Bible is the World's best English translation of the Hebrew and Greek text that we have seen to date. This translation's shortcoming is in capitalizing the word spirit [ruah (pneuma)].

Rotherham Bible Download

People who want a Trinitarian modified bible will be appalled when reading Rotherham'sversion.
Trinitarians hate the Rotherham translation. people who know that Jesus is not God tend to find it the most accurate. I sometimes don't quote the Rotherham version because Trinitarians, instead of responding to the issue, will all get in a huff over Rotherham's translation falsely caliming that he knows nothing about greek. Instead of looking up other versions, what commentaries say, no they dismiss an argument cause you quoted Rotherham. So sometimes I go to other highly accurate ssources that will say the same thing.

dodge and weave. that SOP is used a whole lot.

Hi, there! By far, as best as I can determine, the most accurate translations of the Bible available are the Concordant Literal Translation, Rotherham’s Emphasized and Young’s Literal Translation versions (all three are available free at http://www.studybible.info ).

However, all of them can make for ‘stiff’ reading either because of their attempts to be so accurate or , as in the case of Rotherham’s and Young’s, they are written in ‘ole English’ fashion.

http://merechristianthoughts.com/2014/04/26/modern-youngs-literal-translation/

 

[katerinah1947]

Rotherham Version

New Testament, 1872. Joseph Bryant Rotherham, The New Testament: newly translated from the Greek text of Tregelles and critically emphasised, according to the logical idiom of the original; with an introduction and occasional notes. London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1872.

This is a very peculiar "literal" translation of the text of Tregelles 1857, with special markings to indicate untranslatable rhetorical emphasis. A portion of the work, The Gospel according to Matthew with Notes, had been published as a tentative issue in 1868. A revised second edition was published by Bagster in 1878. At least twelve printings of the complete New Testament were issued by Bagster between 1872 and 1893. A substantially revised edition of this version (commonly called "The Emphasised New Testament") was published by H.R. Allenson of London in 1897, as volume 4 of the complete Bible (see below).

Bible, 1897-1902. The Emphasised Bible: a new translation, designed to set forth the exact meaning, the proper terminology and the graphic style of the sacred originals: arranged to show at a glance narrative, speech, parallelism, and logical analysis, also to enable the student readily to distinguish the several divine names: and emphasised throughout after the idioms of the Hebrew and Greek tongues: with expository introduction, select references & appendices of notes. 4 volumes. London: H.R. Allenson, 1897-1902.

This edition was published beginning with the New Testament in volume 4 (1897), followed by the Old Testament in volumes 1-3 (1901-1902). An American edition of the New Testament portion was published by John Wiley & Sons of New York in 1897; and a one-volume American edition of the complete work was published in 1916 and thereafter by the Standard Publishing Company of Cincinnati. The New Testament translation in this edition is based on the text of Westcott and Hort instead of Tregelles.

Rotherham (1828-1910) was an Englishman and the son of a Methodist preacher. As a young man he began to follow in his father's path, and preached in various Methodist congregations, but he soon left the Methodists to join the Baptists, and then he departed from the Baptists also, to join the fellowship of congregations belonging to the "Restoration Movement" led by Alexander Campbell in the 1850's. He became an evangelist for the Campbellite Churches of Christ in 1854. In his Preface he states that his purpose was to aid a certain "class of Bible readers who were anxious above all things to get as near as possible to the simple, Apostolic (as distinguished from the mediaeval or modern) point of view from which to study the Christian Scriptures." The persons referred to here were the disciples of Campbell, who constantly emphasized the idea that true Christianity could be restored by rejecting all "traditions" of interpretation and studying the Bible alone.

The story of Rotherham's version is told in Reminiscences Extending Over a Period of More than Seventy Years, 1828-1906, by Joseph Bryant Rotherham, compiled with additional notes by his son, J. [Joseph] George Rotherham (London: H. R. Allenson, 1922).

The version takes its name from the marks of emphasis that Rotherham added to the text, showing the rhetorical emphasis belonging to various words, based upon the word order and other features of the Greek text. Below we reproduce a page from the second edition of the New Testament (1878), showing his method in the first two editions.



marks used in the second edition of Rotherham's New Testament

a page from the second edition of Rotherham's New Testament


In the revised edition of 1897 another method was used. Instead of the emphatic words being underlined, they were enclosed in vertical strokes or angle blackets to indicate various degrees of emphasis. The Introduction thoroughly explains how words receive emphasis in the Greek language.

As the page above also shows, Rotherham provided some interesting exegetical footnotes, supplemented by an appendix in which he discusses the meaning of many Greek words.

The translation itself is very difficult and peculiar, and indeed it can scarcely be called English. It resembles the kind of barbarous and occasionally absurd output one gets from translation software applications. The reason is, Rotherham produced the version in the same way that a computer would—he mechanically reproduced the order of the Greek words, no matter how unatural the result in English; he used the same English gloss for all occurrences of a Greek word, without any regard for contextual appropriateness; and he rendered the tenses of the Greek verbs into stereotyped English tenses, without any allowance for the differences between English and Greek grammar. He also did such things as refrain from using the English definite article "the" where the text did not have the Greek article, despite the fact that English usage does not correspond to Greek usage in this matter. Moreover, he seems to have had uninformed notions about the meaning of various Greek words, often preferring a 'root' meaning arrived at by some etymological fallacy. And so we see in the page above such renderings as "Why any longer am even I as a sinner to be judged;" (following the Greek word order); "do we screen ourselves" (giving an eccentric 'root' meaning to the Greek word); "a way of peace they did not get to know" (omitting the article, and attempting to represent the Greek aorist with a 'punctiliar' verbal tense in English), and so forth. Some flagrant examples of these tendencies to be found on other pages are:

Romans 8:31-32. "What, then, shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [shall be] against us? 32 He, at least, who his own Son did not spare, but in behalf of us all delivered him up,—how shall he not also, with him, all things, on us, in favour bestow?"

Mark 7:1-4 "And the Pharisees and certain of the Scribes, who came from Jerusalem, are gathering themselves unto him; 2 and seeing certain of his disciples, that with profane hands, that is, unwashed, they are eating the loaves 3 (for the Pharisees and all the Jews, unless perchance with care they wash [their] hands, eat not;—holding fast the tradition of the elders. 4 And—from market—unless perchance they immerse themselves, they eat not. And many other things there are which they accepted to hold fast:—immersions of cups and measures, and copper [vessels], and couches), 5 and the Pharisees and the Scribes question him, For what reason are thy disciples not walking according to the tradition of the elders; but with profane hands are eating the loaf?"

The outlandish syntax of Romans 8:32 suggests to us one reason why "the humble countrywoman" mentioned by Rotherham in his Preface might have been "begging to have it read to her again and again," as he says. In Mark 7:4, we note especially the word "immerse" used for baptizo, which is an example of an etymological 'root' meaning being preferred over the actual meaning of the Greek word, as determined by context and usage. Rotherham regularly translates baptizo "immerse," and John the Baptist is even called "John the Immerser" in the version. (Needless to say, Rotherham held to the usual teaching of the Churches of Christ with regard to the mode of baptism.) The inappropriateness of "unless perchance" in verses 3 and 4, and of "the loaf" in verse 5, is also painfully obvious.

In the revised edition of 1897, there is some improvement in the translation of Mark 7:1-4.

"And the Pharisees and certain of the Scribes who have come from Jerusalem gather themselves together unto him; and observing certain of his disciples, that with defiled hands, that is unwashed, they are eating bread—for the Pharisees and all the Jews unless with care they wash their hands eat not, holding fast the tradition of the elders; and coming from market, unless they sprinkle themselves they eat not,—and many other things there are which they have accepted to hold fast,—immersions of cups and measures and copper vessels—"

This is certainly better. The word "perchance" has been dropped, and the Pharisees no longer "immerse themselves" before eating now. But "sprinkle" is substituted here only because Rotherham in this edition is translating from the Greek text of Westcott and Hort instead of Tregelles, and Westcott and Hort have here rantisontai instead of baptisontai. (Among critical editors of the text, only Westcott and Hort adopt this reading.) In a marginal note he again states that the alternative Greek reading is "immerse themselves," and thus he avoids recognizing that baptizo can mean "ritual washing" without immersion.

Regarding the other renderings mentioned above, only Romans 3:17 is improved somewhat in the edition of 1897, where it reads, "And way of peace have they not known" [sic]. But this is also unsatisfactory. It seems that Rotherham recognized that the indefinite article "a" did not belong before "way of peace" in his translation, but he still refuses to use the definite article "the," because he is determined not to use the definite article in English where there is none in the Greek. The result is a pointlessly ungrammatical rendering.

Problems like the ones pointed out here are very frequent in Rotherham's version of the Bible. It is quite obviously the work of an amateur, who began the work without much knowledge of the Greek language or of the cultural background of the New Testament, who adopted a rigidly mechanical procedure of translation (such as a school-boy might use), in which certain interlinear-style glosses are arbitrarily employed. It betrays in many places an insensitivity to the contextual meaning of Greek words and constructions. With its marks of emphasis, the version often does give accurate information about the emphasis belonging to Greek phrases, and it might be used for discovering that information while reading another version. But we cannot recommend the translation itself for any purpose.