Really? Trinity?

[Imagican]

If 'trinity' can only be accepted by those to whom it is 'divinely inspired', why is it NOT revealed to ALL that 'believe'?

the ONLY evidence of 'trinity' is the WORDS of men. The RCC, LED by a pagan Emperor, made a DECISION based upon their OWN understanding. And that decision LED to the formation of the doctrine of 'trinity'.

But if 'trinity' were TRULY inspired by God, why is it not even MENTIONED in the Bible? If it is TRULY as important as some insist, why was it NEVER mentioned by Christ or His apostles?

And the MOST important question, how could something be SO IMPORTANT to profess to believe, when even those that "CREATED IT" openly admit that EVEN when 'revealed', it is INCOMPREHENSIBLE to any created intellect?

If one actually does their homework to find where 'trinity' came from, ultimately the conclusion is that the RCC FORMED the doctrine and then INSISTED that ALL under their control ACCEPT it regardless of ANY 'revelation' or 'belief' or 'understanding'. The 'RCC' basically said, "This is what WE are GOING to BELIEVE ALONG with EVERYONE under our control". And trust me, having the ENTIRE Roman EMPIRE backing up the 'Church' made them quite powerful. Powerful enough to be able to simply put people to death that spoke out against what they were teaching.

It is CLEAR that at the time the 'doctrine of trinity' was being formed, there were MANY opposed to the concept. Many BELIEVERS. Many that I would consider SAINTS. And so too are there MANY today.

WHY is that? Why wouldn't God reveal to ALL believers this 'trinity'? And WHY would those that created it have to FORCE others to BELIEVE in it? Why would they have to make it LAW in order to FORCE men to accept it?

If it is SO crucial and SO important a BELIEF so far as God is concerned, shouldn't have been left up to GOD to either REVEAL it or NOT? And if it is REALLY such an important thing to BELIEVE so far as GOD is concerned, why is it not even MENTIONED in His Word? Surely if He had wanted ALL MEN to adhere to such a concept, He could easily have inspired men to PUT IT IN THE BIBLE. Yet there is no mention of the word even by those that created the concept for a couple of hundred years AFTER the death of God's Son.

Did it REALLY take God THREE HUNDRED YEARS to reveal WHO His Son was? Those that actually WALKED with Christ didn't KNOW WHO HE WAS? The apostles NEVER had this 'trinity' revealed to them? Yet the 'RCC' insisted that the doctrine was SO important that they literally PUT PEOPLE TO DEATH for speaking out against it?

And doesn't that FACT in and of itself offer us some INSIGHT into the doctrine itself?

Christ came and preached FORGIVENESS for our sins. Yet the RCC adopted the idea that it was OK to torture and murder those that opposed what they insisted ALL MUST profess to BELIEVE.

Isn't that an UTTERLY contrary message than that Jesus TAUGHT? Jesus taught FREEDOM from the LAW and FORGIVENESS. The RCC introduced NEW law and indicated that they believed it was OK to torture and murder those that believed contrary to what THEY taught.

This ALONE should point out to most with their eyes and hearts OPEN to the TRUTH that 'trinity' was an utterly MAN MADE concept. And one actually CONTRARY to Christ's message of FORGIVENESS and FREEDOM from the LAW.

Some insist that Christ did NOT offer His followers FREEDOM from the LAW. But forgiveness is CONTRARY to LAW that insists upon DEATH to those that break it. And even the Jews, only a mere 70 years later, abandoned the 'death penalty' for breaking the law. For without a TEMPLE, there was no place to hold 'court' to determine the penalty for breaking the law.

Yet the Romans, three hundred years later, believed that it was OK to torture and MURDER men for disagreeing with THEIR teachings. And USED this tactic to TEACH 'trinity'. In order to eliminate any resistance to it, they KILLED those that openly opposed it. Certainly doesn't SEEM like the proper means to TEACH forgiveness.

I have often tried to teach others about Islam, (having READ 'the book'). And often I have encountered a familiar response: "Look at all the people murdered by Christians". And I then ask, "WHO murdered by WHAT 'Christians'?" And their response, "The crusades and inquisition". And my response, "Oh, so you BELIEVE that the Catholics were Christians simply because they CLAIMED to be?" It always elicits the SAME response: "BURN HIM. TEAR HIS HEAD OFF AND BURY HIS PIECES IN DIFFERENT PLACES".

But let's be REAL for just a MOMENT. The Bible explains to us that FAITH is not about what we SAY we believe, but about the FRUIT that is produced THROUGH what we BELIEVE: what WE DO, not what we SAY.

So, let's use this as the defining factor and let us examine the RCC's behavior in THIS regard. Would God TRULY offer divine revelation and then encourage those so inspired to KILL those that had NOT obtained the SAME revelation?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[faroukfarouk]

There is copious Biblical evidence for Father, Son and Holy Spirit; see John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 - 17, Matthew 28, Romans 8, John's First Epistle, etc.

 

[2ducklow]

If 'trinity' can only be accepted by those to whom it is 'divinely inspired', why is it NOT revealed to ALL that 'believe'?

Since the usual Trinitarian response is to ignore whatever non Trinitarians say and talk about something else, I'll respond to it showing what most of them think about the things you brought up.


I suppose that's one reason that most Trinitarians believe that only Trinitarians are saved. because believers in Christ have trinity revealed to them, non believers in the true Christ that is God do not have trinity revealed to them. that's the sort of Trinitarian response I've heard in times past.

the ONLY evidence of 'trinity' is the WORDS of men. The RCC, LED by a pagan Emperor, made a DECISION based upon their OWN understanding. And that decision LED to the formation of the doctrine of 'trinity'.

They'd deny it.

But if 'trinity' were TRULY inspired by God, why is it not even MENTIONED in the Bible? If it is TRULY as important as some insist, why was it NEVER mentioned by Christ or His apostles?

They usually say stuff like God is testing our faith in Trinity by not mentioning it in the bible.

And the MOST important question, how could something be SO IMPORTANT to profess to believe, when even those that "CREATED IT" openly admit that EVEN when 'revealed', it is INCOMPREHENSIBLE to any created intellect?

They usually say trinity is as close as man can come to defining God. Or some such thing.

If one actually does their homework to find where 'trinity' came from, ultimately the conclusion is that the RCC FORMED the doctrine and then INSISTED that ALL under their control ACCEPT it regardless of ANY 'revelation' or 'belief' or 'understanding'. The 'RCC' basically said, "This is what WE are GOING to BELIEVE ALONG with EVERYONE under our control". And trust me, having the ENTIRE Roman EMPIRE backing up the 'Church' made them quite powerful. Powerful enough to be able to simply put people to death that spoke out against what they were teaching.

They'd just deny those facts.

It is CLEAR that at the time the 'doctrine of trinity' was being formed, there were MANY opposed to the concept. Many BELIEVERS. Many that I would consider SAINTS. And so too are there MANY today.

They'd just say they were heretics.

WHY is that? Why wouldn't God reveal to ALL believers this 'trinity'? And WHY would those that created it have to FORCE others to BELIEVE in it? Why would they have to make it LAW in order to FORCE men to accept it?

well they'd say only Trinitarians are true believers, and usually they don't want to talk about inquisition stuff.

If it is SO crucial and SO important a BELIEF so far as God is concerned, shouldn't have been left up to GOD to either REVEAL it or NOT? And if it is REALLY such an important thing to BELIEVE so far as GOD is concerned, why is it not even MENTIONED in His Word?

they'd say God is testing our faith.

Surely if He had wanted ALL MEN to adhere to such a concept, He could easily have inspired men to PUT IT IN THE BIBLE. Yet there is no mention of the word even by those that created the concept for a couple of hundred years AFTER the death of God's Son.

They'd just say it's all over the bible, just not mentioned by name. They'd say God is weeding out the non believers from the believers by having men believe trinity that isn't named. they'd say if we believe scripture we'd believe Trinity. since we don't believe trinity, we don't really believe the word of God. That's the kind of stuff they say.

Did it REALLY take God THREE HUNDRED YEARS to reveal WHO His Son was? Those that actually WALKED with Christ didn't KNOW WHO HE WAS? The apostles NEVER had this 'trinity' revealed to them? Yet the 'RCC' insisted that the doctrine was SO important that they literally PUT PEOPLE TO DEATH for speaking out against it?

I've heard Trinitarians say Trinity existed at the time of the NT. they point to the apostles creed.

And doesn't that FACT in and of itself offer us some INSIGHT into the doctrine itself?

Christ came and preached FORGIVENESS for our sins. Yet the RCC adopted the idea that it was OK to torture and murder those that opposed what they insisted ALL MUST profess to BELIEVE.

Inquisition is an off limits topic. I think they'd probably say they went too far. Or that was the catholics not us, stuff like that.



Ewwww, stating what I know to be the usual Triniarian response is frightening to me. It makes me see why and how they believe it. that's scarey to me. They get bombarded with information like what I posted above, and that's how and why they can believe it. They don't seek out, like non Trinitarians would, information contrary to their conclusions. That's why I began feeling the draw that Trinitarians feel with their proofs. I hate to image what would happen if I bombarded myself with their reasonings. I think it would open one up to being persuaded. Of course I don't do that, I don't ignore counter arguments.. Really I guess most everyone looks for support for their doctrine and avoids non proofs. People like to look for a coup de grace question that has no response. But there are none. Every doctrine has a response to every critical question. And when someone buys a doctrine, he tends to accept every explanation given to every critical question posed against that doctrine. Faith in a doctrine, tends also to make weak responses to critical questions of their doctrine, more acceptable.


I was just thinkin through some stuff here,

 

[Ripheus27]

The Gospel of Thomas and other related documents (e.g. the Trimorphic Protennoia, I think it's called) contain early Christian Trinitarian kinds of sayings. The doctrine of the Trinity in some form was being taught, that is, by both of the main divisions within the early Church* (the Gnostic and Catholic divisions, that is), and from a fairly early time. Indeed, given Catholic antagonism towards Gnosticism, that the RCC would accept the doctrine of the Trinity, which was first formulated (in writing), more or less, by the Gnostics, bolsters the idea that this doctrine was not something the RCC just made up out of thin air, but inherited from the days of the apostolic Church.

*These are the factions I'm aware of, but I'm not entirely well-versed about the primitive faith to say whether there were other major groups within the foundational Christian movement.

 

[xpower]

Go here (reasonablefaith.org/defenders-2-podcast/s5)

 

[Der Alte]

If 'trinity' can only be accepted by those to whom it is 'divinely inspired', why is it NOT revealed to ALL that 'believe'?

the ONLY evidence of 'trinity' is the WORDS of men. The RCC, LED by a pagan Emperor, made a DECISION based upon their OWN understanding. And that decision LED to the formation of the doctrine of 'trinity'.

But if 'trinity' were TRULY inspired by God, why is it not even MENTIONED in the Bible? If it is TRULY as important as some insist, why was it NEVER mentioned by Christ or His apostles?

And the MOST important question, how could something be SO IMPORTANT to profess to believe, when even those that "CREATED IT" openly admit that EVEN when 'revealed', it is INCOMPREHENSIBLE to any created intellect?

If one actually does their homework to find where 'trinity' came from, ultimately the conclusion is that the RCC FORMED the doctrine and then INSISTED that ALL under their control ACCEPT it regardless of ANY 'revelation' or 'belief' or 'understanding'. The 'RCC' basically said, "This is what WE are GOING to BELIEVE ALONG with EVERYONE under our control". And trust me, having the ENTIRE Roman EMPIRE backing up the 'Church' made them quite powerful. Powerful enough to be able to simply put people to death that spoke out against what they were teaching. . . .

You have a lot of twisted facts! First the pagan emperor you are talking about was considered a Christian but he was not a Trinitarian he was an Arian. Today we call that belief Jehovah Witnesses.

Second there was no RCC with a pope in charge of the entire church until 1075. In 1075 the bishop of Rome unilaterally usurped control of the church by issuing 27 Dictatus Papae, Dictates of the Pope. Here are a few of them.

Gregory VII Dictatus Papae, The Dictates of the Pope

2. That the Roman pontiff alone can with right be called universal.
3. That he alone can depose or reinstate bishops.
…
8. That he alone may use the imperial insignia.
9. That of the pope alone all princes shall kiss the feet.
10. That his name alone shall be spoken in the churches.
11. That his is the only name in the world.
12. That it may be permitted to him to depose emperors.
13. That the Roman pontiff alone can with right be called universal.

Internet History Sourcebooks Project
​

Until that time the bishop of Rome had no more authority than any other presiding Bishop. The Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Corinth, etc. had just as much authority as Rome.

 

[Albion]

If 'trinity' can only be accepted by those to whom it is 'divinely inspired', why is it NOT revealed to ALL that 'believe'?

I don't think that's so. The Bible gives ample evidence of the Trinity, and that's the reason I believe it, all the church organizations and councils and creeds aside.

 

[Der Alte]

There is copious Biblical evidence for Father, Son and Holy Spirit; see John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 - 17, Matthew 28, Romans 8, John's First Epistle, etc.

Eleven passages, from the list of 86, below, which reveal the Triunity of God. Each passage shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having a different relationship, effect, role, purpose, etc., with respect to believers.

For example, #1, Titus 3:4, believers are SAVED BY Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three. We are SAVED BY,

1. the kindness and love of God our Savior,
2., by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, shed on us abundantly
3. through Jesus Christ our Saviour, all three..

(1.) Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of [1] God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of [2]the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he [3] shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

(2.) 2 Co 13:14 [1] The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and [2]the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [3]be with you all. Amen.

(3.) Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, [1] praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves [2]in the love of God, looking for [3] the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

(4.) 1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to [1] the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of [2] the Spirit, [Repeated three times, cf. 2 Th 2.13, Ro 15:16] unto obedience and [3] sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [Repeated twice, cf. Heb 9.14] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(5.) Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, [1] The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and [2] the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, which shall be born of thee shall be called [3] the Son of God,.

(6.) Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [1] baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive [2] the gift of the Holy Ghost,.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as [3] the Lord our God shall call,.

(7.) Rom 15:16 That I should be [1] the minister of Jesus Christ, to the Gentiles, ministering [2]the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being [3] sanctified by the Holy Ghost,.

(8.) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be [1] a root of Jesse,, and he, that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him, shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now [2] the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through [3] the power of the Holy Ghost,.

(9.) Heb 9.14 How much more, then, will [1] the blood of Christ, who [2] through the eternal Spirit, offered himself unblemished [3] to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!,

(10.) 2 Thess 2.13 But we ought always to [1] thank God, for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God, chose you to be saved through [2] the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might [3] share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,.

(11.) I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are [1] different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.,
5 There are [2] different kinds of service, but the same Lord.,
6 There are [3] different kinds of working, but the same God, works all of them in all men.

The Gospels and Acts

Mat 1:18-22, Mat 3:9-11, Mat 3:16-17, Mat 4:1-4, Mat 10:19-23, Mat 12:28, Mat 28:19, Mark 12:35-37, Lk 1:15-17, Lk 1:30-35 *, Lk 1:67-69, Lk 2:25-32, Lk 4:12-13, Lk 10:21, Lk 12:8-10, Jn 1:32-34, Jn 3:31-35, Jn 14:15-17, Jn 14:25, Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7-10, Jn 16:13-15, Jn 20:16-22, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 2:32-33, Acts 2:38-39*, Acts 4:8-10, Acts 4:24-26, Act 4:29-31, Acts 5:30-32, Acts 7:51-56, Acts 8:14-17, Acts 9:15-20 Acts 10:38, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 11:23-24, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 16:6-10, Acts 20:22-24, Acts 28:23-25.

The Pauline writings

Rom 1:1-4, Rom 5:1-5, Rom 8:9-11, Rom 8:13-16, Rom 8:26-29, Rom 15:12-13*, Rom 15:16*, , Rom 14:15-17, Rom 15:16, Rom 15:18-19, Rom 15:30, I Cor 2:8-10, I Cor 2:14-16, I Cor 6:9-11, I Cor 6:14-19, I Cor 12:3-5*, 2 Cor 1:20-22, 2 Cor 3:3-4, 2 Cor 13:14*, Gal 3:1-5, Gal 4:4-6, Gal 5:21-25, Eph 2:17-18, Eph 3:14-17, Eph 4:4-6, Eph 4:30-32, Eph 5:18-20, Phil 3:3, I Thess 1:4-6, 2 Thess 2:13-14*, I Tim 3:15-16, Titus 3:4-6.*

The General Epistles

Heb 2:3-4; Heb 6:3-6; Heb 9:14*; Heb 10:29-31; I Pet 1:2; * I Pet 3:18; I Pet 4:14; I Jn 3:21-24; I Jn 4:13-14; I Jn 5:6-9; Jud 1:20-21*.

Revelation

Rev 14:12-13, Rev 22:17-18,​

 

[2ducklow]

see my point was illustrated in Albion's response. In the eyes of Trinitarians only Trinitarians truly believe. He's saying it's revealed to all who believe. Since we nontrinitarians don't believe the trinity, then according to them, we don't really believe. Problem solved. we ain't even Christians to them.

Either that or he just avoided the portion of your question that asks why isn't it revealed to all that believe. Leave it vague that way you can't be pinned down is a frequent tactic as well. Keep um guessin as to what you believe.

 

[Albion]

see my point was illustrated in Albion's response. In the eyes of Trinitarians only Trinitarians truly believe. He's saying it's revealed to all who believe.

To be more precise, I believe that it's available to all, or to all who have a copy of the Bible, since it's there.

Since we nontrinitarians don't believe the trinity, then according to them, we don't really believe. Problem solved. we ain't even Christians to them.

That's nonsense. The point is only that you don't believe in the Trinity, that's all.

Either that or he just avoided the portion of your question that asks why isn't it revealed to all that believe. Leave it vague that way you can't be pinned down is a frequent tactic as well. Keep um guessin as to what you believe.

I can't help feeling that you'd be doing a lot better if you tried to understand what's been written instead of coming out swinging in all directions at once and at imaginary adversaries.

 

[2ducklow]

To be more precise, I believe that it's available to all, or to all who have a copy of the Bible, since it's there.

That's even less precise. The question was "why doesn't God reveal trinity to all believers?"

That's nonsense. The point is only that you don't believe in the Trinity, that's all.

You're still dodging the same question, why doesn't God reveal the Trinity to all believers?

I can't help feeling that you'd be doing a lot better if you tried to understand what's been written instead of coming out swinging in all directions at once and at imaginary adversaries.

Every time you post you prove my point. you Trinitarians evade at every opportunity. this post is yet another example. the question is why doesn't God reveal the Trinity to all believers?. Your response is "he does reveal the trinity to all believers. That response assumes that those who don't believe The trinity aren't believers. Or you're saying that God has revealed it to us nontrinitarians but we don't believe the revelation. One will forever have to wonder I suppose.


"What we have here is a failure to communicate"
Cool Hand Luke

 

[AlephBet]

Evidence for the Trinity comes directly from the Hebrew. Look at link 2 in my signature.

 

[2ducklow]

I took a nap today and had a dream. I dreamed that we shouldn't attack each others religion. But then that's in real life. on line doesn't count, it's not real life. I don't attack anyone in real life. I live and let live. CF is like a board game.

On the other hand though, Michael Servetus got burned at the stake for sending insulting and ridiculing letters about the trinity to John Calvin. So I guess we guys should forever remain anonymous. For safety's sake. The topic ignites passions. Everybody put away their bics.

Wanna know what I think? oh, I think I just got a revelation from some of my angel friends. I think Servetus and John Calvin are best of buddies right now. Since the fight is over for them. Ain't gonna be any grudges held in the after life. See, I can see and say that cause I know how to become a Christian. one becomes a Christian by believing that Jesus is the son of God. you guys who think it's by believing that JEsus is god can't see that. you guys think Servetus is burning in hell cause he rejected trinity. you'll find out one day that the bible is right when it says 'who is he that overcometh the world but he that believeth that JEsus is the son of God.' Change it to God all you want, but the bible will prevail.

 

[Ripheus27]

The only thing that seems to truly differentiate unitarians from Trinitarians is that the former group doesn't use a certain word to refer to Jesus. For them, God's okay with us loving and following His Son just as much as we love and follow God Himself; we can even bow down to Jesus and talk about Him more than the Father without incurring the Father's displeasure. We can even say that Jesus is YHWH! But the Lord forbid we take three letters in English, or some other letters in some other languages, arrange them in a certain order, capitalize the first one, and then apply the term to our Lord and Savior.

 

[Jesse2014]

I don't understand the trinity myself. But I just accept it. The Bible does not say the word trinity but it does call Jesus God, the Holy Spirit God, and the Father God.

 

[2ducklow]

I don't understand the trinity myself. But I just accept it. The Bible does not say the word trinity but it does call Jesus God, the Holy Spirit God, and the Father God.

Most Trinitarians don't try to understand it, they just accept it. To them it's like a given.Ive gone to Trinitarian churches in times past. Went to a couple quite frequently. they almost never even mention the word trinity, unless you bring the subject up. When a churches doctrine is that belief in trinity is necessary for salvation and they almost never even mention the word trinity, it should cause some bells and whistles to go off in peoples heads. But it doesn't. I guess in every Church there's an elephant that no one talks about.

 

[Albion]

The only thing that seems to truly differentiate unitarians from Trinitarians is that the former group doesn't use a certain word to refer to Jesus.

Seems as though whether or not Jesus was God is worth a mention.

 

[Albion]

That's even less precise. The question was "why doesn't God reveal trinity to all believers?"

Both of us have already addressed that.

you Trinitarians evade at every opportunity. this post is yet another example. the question is why doesn't God reveal the Trinity to all believers?.

And I said that he had. So....?

Your response is "he does reveal the trinity to all believers.

No, that wasn't my response. Would you prefer that it be my response rather than the one I gave you?

That response assumes that those who don't believe The trinity aren't believers. Or you're saying that God has revealed it to us nontrinitarians but we don't believe the revelation. One will forever have to wonder I suppose.


"What we have here is a failure to communicate"

I think that what we have here is a failure to read before posting.

 

[2ducklow]

Both of us have already addressed that.

I like how you guys are so excellent at dodging questions.

And I said that he had. So....?



No, that wasn't my response. Would you prefer that it be my response rather than the one I gave you?

I think that what we have here is a failure to read before posting.

then you should try reading first.

 

[Ripheus27]

Seems as though whether or not Jesus was God is worth a mention.

What I meant was that unitarians are unitarians in theory and Trinitarians in practice. This makes their position in a way self-deceptive, but that aside, it means that their position is questionable because it seems merely verbal, and that indicates potential interpersonal deception also.