really not praying to Mary???

[David_The_Disciple]

Catholics should (and do) go to Christ all the time. Mary should never be a substitute for Christ. Just a good friend and mother who wants everyone to know her Son better.

Just like if I ask a friend to pray for me, it is not because I am not praying but because it brings all in Christ closer to share our love that way in supplication to God.

If someone goes to Mary and the saints but never to Christ, the church calls that disordered because Christ should be in our hearts first.

well like i said or think i said i do not know fully understand and know all of the Catholics teachings. I just know from what i have seen and heard from a few ppl. And I know one person does not trule rep. the Catholic teachings.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Protestants hold that the Bible is God. Jn 1:1, it is God and if it's not there, it isn't from God.

The Bible didn't exist at that time so it could hardly be speaking about the Bible. The Word, or Logos, is Jesus.

This is one of those cases where if you just read the Bible in a vacuum your interpretion can be wildly off from what Jesus intended.

 

[Smileyill]

Protestants hold that the Bible is God. Jn 1:1, it is God and if it's not there, it isn't from God.

The Bible didn't exist at that time so it could hardly be speaking about the Bible. The Word, or Logos, is Jesus.

This is one of those cases where if you just read the Bible in a vacuum your interpretion can be wildly off from what Jesus intended.

Actually, the first 39 did exist. But you're right, The Word is Jesus.

 

[WarriorAngel]

After reading and posting in this thread, it appears, to me, that we'll never agree because Protestants hold that the Bible is God. Jn 1:1, it is God and if it's not there, it isn't from God.

Catholics use the pope and tradition to supplement the Bible. Catholics hold that if the pope or tradition support something, apparent contradictions from the Bible are misinterpretations.

To me, Jn 1:1 is clear. The critical problem is knowing which books are God (or reflect what God wants us to know). For me, that's the only place Apostalic tradition plays a role. Once I know the correct books, I know God. (Presupposing, of course, that I'm a Christian with the HS indwelling & teaching me).

The starting point is studying the 66 books almost everybody accepts, which I have done. With a grasp of them, I should study the other books and compare. If I find glaring contradictions, I need to study the contradictions, and decide. Basically, this is so important that I'll take nobody's word for what is right. I'll listen to ideas and run them past the HS, that's one of his missions, to teach.

Hon after speaking with you, I find this incorrect.
You SOLELY take one mans word for it.

You will listen to others our of respect, but will not allow historical accuracy to be given to you WITHOUT this man, who has an agenda, to give input.

IE...you have a biased source who will persuade you to believe the books are not inspired, even though the same Church which defined the OT also defined the NT that YOU see as inspired scripure.

SO if the Church erred in using the deutero's, then they certainly erred in the other scripture too. And there lies a big dilemma. YOU have absolutely NO assurances...IF you cannot trust the Catholic Church.

ALL of it is canon, as I gave you detailed info on the historical accounts. IF one part of the scripture since 382 AD is wrong.....then what assurance do you have that all the rest is inspired?

You take the Church's word for the New Testament...but not the OT.

Irony, really.

God Bless.

Insted of going thou Christ.

All things must be done through Christ.
Are you referring to Mary going directly to the Father without Christ's mediation?

IMHO....since Christ already opened the gates, and He is God, I am certain anyone in Heaven can speak to God the Father....and they are able to do so because it was thru Christ they are in Heaven.

So with Christ's death and resurrection... I am sure everyone speaks to the Father. And are able to do so now, thru Christ.

[Without which, they wouldnt be heaven anyway]

Are you asking if she is allowed to ask the Father in Heaven on our behalf..?
I am not in Heaven, but since Christ already gave His life....it is a possibility. Since without Christ, they wouldnt be in Heaven anyway.

 

[bagshome]

You are correct. the Bible does NOT need to specify.

In fact, it eludes to Tradition.
WHY?

We live in a different time and culture. Whereas the first Christians assumed everyone knew what they were referring to....so after 2000 years, things can only be eluded to. Because we cannot ascertain by limited knowledge what exacting pieces mean except thru what has been written thru all writings [unchanging from one father to the next BTW].

BUT alas, God gave us Apostolic Succession.

What does that mean?
It means that what they were referring to was left in the capable hands of their priests and Bishops who wrote down what they meant....AND were ordained BY the Apostles to hand down that ordination...given to them by Christ Himself.
SEE laying of hands.

WE call them the Early Church Fathers.

Apostolic Succession is eluded to.... but the term isnt there.

Many terms were not in place until defined. And the Church defined them through the knowledge left them thru scriptures, and ECF's writings.

Nothing in Tradition is left without some concrete writing to ensure the Church always knows.

The New Testament was DECIDED by the Church. To know which was inspired and which was 'they felt' unnecessary to use as scripture for all the Churches.

THIS is WHY we have a Bible. It was put together for the CHURCH's use.
So all the Church's would have all the Epistles in one place per UNIVERSAL [CATHOLIC] Church....so they could be 'quoted' from the Apostles.

The Church almost decided to put in the ECF's as well as the Apostles, but decided to only add in the Gospels [written also by other disciples. dictated by Apostles] and the Apostles journals. [Epistles...letters]

The only thing I can say about 'men' making traditions is when they do not follow the Apostolic Traditions.

There is quite a difference between God's Traditions, and mens traditions.

Doctrines are laws of God.
Traditions keep those dotrines intact even over time.

And traditions are when men decide what should be truth...or necessary.

BTW, the term Rapture is not in the Bible.
That is a new found tradition that not ONE ECF ever wrote about.

Rapture is simply terminology. Jesus said when speaking of the end times, "two will be working in the field, one will be taken and the other will be left. Two will be on the rooftop, one will be taken and the other left." Call it what you want, but the rapture is not only explained in the bible, it is explained by Jesus Himself. Pretty clear to me.

 

[Iollain]

So I guess to sum up. Scripture says the dead shall be as angels. Scripture says that angels rejoice and pray. Scripture says that we are all, living and dead united in Christ.

Scripture says the dead shall be as angels in the resurrection, just remember.





Mar 12:23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.


Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?


Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The rapture........?
Is about those 'alive' in Christ but who have died in the body...and rise with Him in the end.

No one physically alive will fly up.

 

[HisKid1973]

No one physically alive will fly up.[[/b]/quote]

Your kidding right!!

1Thess.4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep(in Christ).
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Davidnic]

Scripture says the dead shall be as angels in the resurrection, just remember.

But there are some translation isuues in that at times. The word used to describe angels and saints in heaven, even before a bodily resurrection is the same word. Qaddiysh.

There is also Baruch 3:4

O Lord Almighty, God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel and of the sons of those who sinned before thee, who did not heed the voice of the Lord their God, so that calamities have clung to us.

I understand not everyone accepts Baruch as Scripture. But we all do accept Jeremiah. And in Jeremiah 15:1 God hears and refuses intercession:

Then the LORD said to me, "Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my heart would not turn toward this people. Send them out of my sight, and let them go!

This is not because intercession is wrong, or they would not have asked and Scripture would state that the asking was wrong.

And it is not a historical reference because the tense is present.

He refuses because granting their request is not in God's plan at that point.

The end of the chapter (15:19-21) gives us God's plan. Not to simply answer, but His not answering is not because intercession does not work, but because He is going to bring a higher purpose from refusing:

Therefore thus says the LORD: "If you return, I will restore you, and you shall stand before me. If you utter what is precious, and not what is worthless, you shall be as my mouth. They shall turn to you, but you shall not turn to them.

And I will make you to this people a fortified wall of bronze; they will fight against you, but they shall not prevail over you, for I am with you to save you and deliver you, says the LORD.

I will deliver you out of the hand of the wicked, and redeem you from the grasp of the ruthless."

God will choose the best course because He knows what it is. But there is not opposition to the intercession

 

[Iollain]

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart:
Mat 17:2 And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow.
Mat 17:3 And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat 17:5 And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him.
Mat 17:6 And the disciples hearing fell upon their face, and were very much afraid.
Mat 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them: and said to them: Arise, and fear not.
Mat 17:8 And they lifting up their eyes, saw no one, but only Jesus.

Notice here that Moses and Elias are right there, Jesus did not call out to the wild blue yonder for them. Though He could have as He is God.

Mat 22:29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married, but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat 22:31 And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken by God, saying to you:
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Jesus was correcting the Sadducees, the Sadducees did not believe in angel, demon, resurrection or afterlife of any kind. I wonder why scripturecatholic does not mention that? Also note that He is comparing the not marrying with the angels, does not say people will be like angels in every aspect.

Luk 15:7 I say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.

Luk 15:10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.

Luk 15:1 ¶ Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

Luk 15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

Luk 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Luk 15:5 And when he hath found [it], he layeth [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luk 15:8 ¶ Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find [it]?

Luk 15:9 And when she hath found [it], she calleth [her] friends and [her] neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.

Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.



This is talking about the angels rejoicing.

 

[OneChristianOne]

I haven't read this entire thread, so please excuse me if this question has already been asked. God is omnipresent........Mary isn't. How can Mary hear my prayer at the same time she's listening to the prayer of another 5,000 miles away? She'd have to be omnipresent.

I also noticed in reading about the Mary apparitions, that afterward, there was always a catastrophe, ie., war or death. That's scary.

 

[Davidnic]

I haven't read this entire thread, so please excuse me if this question has already been asked. God is omnipresent........Mary isn't. How can Mary hear my prayer at the same time she's listening to the prayer of another 5,000 miles away? She'd have to be omnipresent.

.

Because God wishes it. It can not be done apart from God. Same as if God gives a person prophecy that person does not know everything, just what God wishes.

 

[Iollain]

But there are some translation isuues in that at times. The word used to describe angels and saints in heaven, even before a bodily resurrection is the same word. Qaddiysh.

There is also Baruch 3:4

O Lord Almighty, God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel and of the sons of those who sinned before thee, who did not heed the voice of the Lord their God, so that calamities have clung to us.

I understand not everyone accepts Baruch as Scripture. But we all do accept Jeremiah. And in Jeremiah 15:1 God hears and refuses intercession:

Then the LORD said to me, "Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my heart would not turn toward this people. Send them out of my sight, and let them go!

This is not because intercession is wrong, or they would not have asked and Scripture would state that the asking was wrong.

And it is not a historical reference because the tense is present.

He refuses because granting their request is not in God's plan at that point.

The end of the chapter (15:19-21) gives us God's plan. Not to simply answer, but His not answering is not because intercession does not work, but because He is going to bring a higher purpose from refusing:

Therefore thus says the LORD: "If you return, I will restore you, and you shall stand before me. If you utter what is precious, and not what is worthless, you shall be as my mouth. They shall turn to you, but you shall not turn to them.

And I will make you to this people a fortified wall of bronze; they will fight against you, but they shall not prevail over you, for I am with you to save you and deliver you, says the LORD.

I will deliver you out of the hand of the wicked, and redeem you from the grasp of the ruthless."

God will choose the best course because He knows what it is. But there is not opposition to the intercession

There is no translation issue there, Jesus is talking about the Resurrection.


I don't think Samuel and Moses are interceeding here, i believe this verse is talking about, as usual, the Jews doing their thing which was their own thing, they did this many many times. Samuel and Moses would have stood in prayer for the same line of people at different times and this is not any different, same people doing the same things. Same prayers that were for the Jews hunderds of years ago are for this same people.

 

[Iollain]

Because God wishes it. It can not be done apart from God. Same as if God gives a person prophecy that person does not know everything, just what God wishes.

So your saying that Mary is omnipresent?

 

[OneChristianOne]

Because God wishes it. It can not be done apart from God. Same as if God gives a person prophecy that person does not know everything, just what God wishes.

How do you know God wishes it? What about the calamities after the apparitions?

 

[Davidnic]

So your saying that Mary is omnipresent?

Nope. And I don't see where you get that from my answer.

 

[Davidnic]

How do you know God wishes it? What about the calamities after the apparitions?

We know because of Apostolic tradition. And as far as the stuff after the apparitions I could point out bad things that happen after every Penn State game. Bad things happen alot.

But in some cases Mary actually says that if the world does not repent and turn to Christ there will be disasters. All she wants is for the world to be closer to her Son.

 

[Davidnic]

There is no translation issue there

Then why are people in heaven, before a bodily resurrection referred to by the same word as angels?

 

[HisKid1973]

Nope. And I don't see where you get that from my answer.

Hi David..I sorta got that impression too, since when this was said..quote: I haven't read this entire thread, so please excuse me if this question has already been asked. God is omnipresent........Mary isn't. How can Mary hear my prayer at the same time she's listening to the prayer of another 5,000 miles away? She'd have to be omnipresent.

You answered about God wishing it...pax...Kim

 

[Iollain]

We know because of Apostolic tradition. And as far as the stuff after the apparitions I could point out bad things that happen after every Penn State game. Bad things happen alot.

But in some cases Mary actually says that if the world does not repent and turn to Christ there will be disasters. All she wants is for the world to be closer to her Son.

The Bible says there will be disasters, and more so as the end draws near. There is always God's people about telling people to repent.

Anyways that is not what bugs me about the apparitions, if that would have been all the message i'd believe it was Mary, but this 'Mary' constantly asks for more and more time with her, you got the 'immaculate heart' thing........and she wants people to say the rosary which builds up to a praise of Mary in the end, not Jesus....she wants statues... she wants metals.......she wants people to ask for the graces that SHE has........she wants everything that the Biblical God, imo, does not.....it's just not of God, imo.