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Reading over the CO forum...

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gluadys

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Critias said:
If one studies the Hebrew language to find out if this was meant as allegorical or literal, one can clearly see that the linguistics point to a historical narrative. Granted, one must study this, but if you apply yourself, it shouldn't be too hard.

I asked this question before and received no reply. Perhaps you missed it. I know some linguistics. Not a lot, but enough to understand an argument grounded in linguistics.

What is there about Hebrew linguistics that points to a historical narrative in Genesis' early chapters?
 
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Didaskomenos

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Critias said:
We are all at fault. I just wonder why TEs think it is just swell to go and befriend atheists just for the sake of putting down YECs.

Why? Because it's in your imagination! We befriend atheists for the sake of removing the obstacle put in their paths by Christians who use their soapboxes to contravene the sum of human understanding in favor of their surface-level reading of Scripture.

Put forth your best Hebrew evidence that every word of Genesis was written as history, and even if it weren't untenable and ad hoc it wouldn't change the fact that Genesis is unhistorical. Why should that shock Christians who know how inscrutable and untame our God is? So many say, in effect, "Well, if I were God, I would not allow anything but pure, hard, scientifically verifiable facts to be passed from the men of faith of old to believers of today. Therefore, God didn't allow it, either." The fact is, either God isn't God and He didn't have anything to do with the Bible, or He wasn't concerned about scientific knowledge when greater spiritual truths were at stake and able to be expressed regardless of the verifiablility of the stories in which they were couched.

Shame on TE's for wanted to do what Jesus did! Don't you know that the tax collectors, prostitutes, and other riffraff were gleeful when Jesus spent most of His time with them and much of it lambasting the religious leaders who held them in such disdain! Especially since it was the religious whose error and arrogance was keeping people from taking up the faith.
 
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Critias

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Didaskomenos said:
Why? Because it's in your imagination! We befriend atheists for the sake of removing the obstacle put in their paths by Christians who use their soapboxes to contravene the sum of human understanding in favor of their surface-level reading of Scripture.

Put forth your best Hebrew evidence that every word of Genesis was written as history, and even if it weren't untenable and ad hoc it wouldn't change the fact that Genesis is unhistorical. Why should that shock Christians who know how inscrutable and untame our God is? So many say, in effect, "Well, if I were God, I would not allow anything but pure, hard, scientifically verifiable facts to be passed from the men of faith of old to believers of today. Therefore, God didn't allow it, either." The fact is, either God isn't God and He didn't have anything to do with the Bible, or He wasn't concerned about scientific knowledge when greater spiritual truths were at stake and able to be expressed regardless of the verifiablility of the stories in which they were couched.

Shame on TE's for wanted to do what Jesus did! Don't you know that the tax collectors, prostitutes, and other riffraff were gleeful when Jesus spent most of His time with them and much of it lambasting the religious leaders who held them in such disdain! Especially since it was the religious whose error and arrogance was keeping people from taking up the faith.

If TEs befriended atheists for the sake of the Gospel and not for doing everything they can to berate, lie about, put down, make fun of, and personally attack YECs it would be great.

But, anyone can see what happens over there. Jesus isn't being preached. YECs are being put down, made fun of, lied about, and personally attacked. Because man created a forum for this to happen, we just say then it is the "right" thing to do.

Those YECs who do the same thing there are equally at fault, but since I see a majority of TEs there doing this, and stating it is a good thing to do, I have asked why.

Do you agree with Lady Kate that it is better to deny the deity of Jesus Christ then to accept a six day creation?

Do you agree with Lady Kate that it is better for the Church to teach that Jesus isn't the way to Salvation then to teach six day creation?

Forget the TE/YEC line. Is this what you think Christianity is better off teaching against Jesus' teachings than teaching a six day creation that is taught in the Bible?

Forget the us versus them. This us together, Christians, you and me, same side here. Are we to accept this theology that we are better off going against Jesus Christ than with a six day creation? Are we better off uplifting those who make personal attacks, whether TE or YEC?

I don't care if one is a TE/OEC/YEC/GAP/PC or whatever. When you start justifying your sins, you are going down a path to destruction. It is up to you if you wish to continue, or realize what we are all doing.

Where did He state we are to make ourselves one with those who don't believe in order to attack those who do believe? Where did Jesus teach that we are to retaliate or attack anyone personally?

Justify it all you want, you know in your heart it is wrong. I was wrong to do it, every YEC who has done it was wrong. And every TE is wrong to do it as well. Either you see and repent of it, or you justify it and continue it.

Jesus called us to repent. Repent means to turn away. It isn't our "im sorry" He seeks, it is our act of following that He wants. I have had to take a hard look at myself for my actions on this forum and I am asking why you or anyone else thinks it is a good think to justify what takes place on the open forums by TEs there?

Only Gluadys has said it was wrong. Every other TE here has either justified it or remained silent.
 
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raphael_aa

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Critias said:
...Actually, I was not talking about pseudoscience. I was talking about what the Bible actually says about creation: God created in six days. If one studies the Hebrew language to find out if this was meant as allegorical or literal, one can clearly see that the linguistics point to a historical narrative. Granted, one must study this, but if you apply yourself, it shouldn't be too hard.

Now, if your statement is that there will never be unity until YECs accept that the Bible does not state creation in six days, you are right. The words "six days" are quite clear. The Hebrew renders the text a historical narrative and it has been understood to be historical for over 2000 years.

I cannot just close my eyes and be blind to the fact that the Bible does say six days. ...

What the Bible 'actually' says is anything but clear. Scholars are genuinely divided about how to read Genesis. See my thread here in the C/E forum for one example. See also here:

http://www.clt.astate.edu/wnarey/new_page_6.htm

http://www.clt.astate.edu/wnarey/Bible%20as%20Literature%20documents/genesis.htm

Also, the doctrinal statements of major denominations make it clear there is significant variety in the reading of Biblical texts, and specifically the creation story.

http://www.cesame-nm.org/Viewpoint/contributions/bible/position.html


To elevate one's own interpretation of the text as the only or most accurate version forces one to conclude that other christians are deceived, biased, 'spiritually blind' or involved in demonic conspiracy. If history teaches us anything, it teaches us that this road leads to folly.


http://www.clt.astate.edu/wnarey/Bible as Literature documents/genesis.htm
 
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Are you deliberately misrepresenting me, or does this just come naturally?

Critias said:
Do you agree with Lady Kate that it is better to deny the deity of Jesus Christ then to accept a six day creation?

Do you agree with Lady Kate that it is better for the Church to teach that Jesus isn't the way to Salvation then to teach six day creation?

When did I ever... EVER talk about these things in terms of beter or worse? What we're talking about here is what is doing more damage to the name and reputation of the Church.

A doctrine does its damage to the Church based not only on how hererical it may or may not be, but on how zealously its adherents push it.

Denying Christ's divinity is certainly worse than YEC for the Church... IF the church lived in a political and social vacuum. It does not.

The fact that YEC proponents push their agenda (Blind adherence to OUR interpretation of the Bible at the cost of reason and education) in today's society far more than Jesus deniers ever have makes YEC the biggest threat to the Church.

Or.... just to insure that you get it this time.... A flamethrower may be "worse" than a switchblade... but a switchblade held at your throat is worse than the flamethrower sitting on a shelf.

Now, are we clear on this? Or are you going to debate some more?
 
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theFijian

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I cannot just close my eyes and be blind to the fact that the Bible does say six days.

And I cannot just close my eyes and be blind to the fact that it's not as simplistic as that.

I agree. We are all at fault. I just wonder why TEs think it is just swell to go and befriend atheists just for the sake of putting down YECs. Lady Kate proves the point above that denying Jesus Christ is not as bad as believing a six day creation; it is better to deny Jesus Christ then to believe a six day creation.

And I just wonder why some (ie. not all) Creationists think its just swell to deliberately goad and bait opponents in debate and behave in a disrespectful and insulting manner to both their Christian brethren and non-Christians.

That says a lot for TEs who agree with her.

I'm sure it does. As does the chorus of doubt from Creationists over the salvational status of their TE brethren.
 
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theFijian

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Critias said:
Only Gluadys has said it was wrong. Every other TE here has either justified it or remained silent.

Right, so we have to get every single TE in here to say they think it's wrong otherwise they are guilty in your eyes irrespective of whether they've viewed this thread?

I think it's wrong!

In return, can you please post a thread in the Creationism forum stating your disapproval of the behaviour of some Creationists in this forum and in the open C\E forum please. We can't have silence.
 
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Critias

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theFijian said:
Right, so we have to get every single TE in here to say they think it's wrong otherwise they are guilty in your eyes irrespective of whether they've viewed this thread?

I think it's wrong!

In return, can you please post a thread in the Creationism forum stating your disapproval of the behaviour of some Creationists in this forum and in the open C\E forum please. We can't have silence.

I was actually planning on it. And when I do, will you do something help to aid in peace between TE and YEC? Will you repremand TE's who do what they can to put down, make fun of, lie about, accuse, ect of YECs? Or will keep your silence?

I do not visit the open C/E forum anymore and have not for quite some time. It is not edifying to read about Christians trying to destroy each other. It is saddening and I think you would agree that it is troubling.

Is there anyway that TEs and YECs came come into agreeance that we should live as Jesus Christ commanded us to live? Or do we need to be divided on this as well that some say (in both camps) that we should not love each other, while the other side says we should.

Can we as Christians live as Jesus Christ commanded us, or is our flesh more important to feed with sinfulness?
 
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higgs2

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I would have to say that whenever I read about "Creationism" my primary emotion is disbelief, it is absolutely mindboggling that such a viewpoint has any credibility whatsoever. This forum is a huge education for me. On the other hand, it certainly does not reflect the real world as I know it.
 
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shernren

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Do any of you know who he's talking about? I can see why he has a grudge against the person but I've never seen that person on Christian Forums. I mean, I don't think any of the TEs here believe that Peter, Paul, Jude, the writer of Hebrews, Luke, and Jesus Christ were all immoral slanderous liars. :p so whoever Critias is talking about it sure isn't me. :p ;)
 
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theFijian

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shernren said:
Do any of you know who he's talking about? I can see why he has a grudge against the person but I've never seen that person on Christian Forums. I mean, I don't think any of the TEs here believe that Peter, Paul, Jude, the writer of Hebrews, Luke, and Jesus Christ were all immoral slanderous liars. :p so whoever Critias is talking about it sure isn't me. :p ;)

It's just another example of how we are viewed by our YEC brethren, see some others in my post here. They are at least consistent.
 
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gluadys

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shernren said:
Do any of you know who he's talking about? I can see why he has a grudge against the person but I've never seen that person on Christian Forums. I mean, I don't think any of the TEs here believe that Peter, Paul, Jude, the writer of Hebrews, Luke, and Jesus Christ were all immoral slanderous liars. :p so whoever Critias is talking about it sure isn't me. :p ;)

He may be referring to a conversation we had on Peter's reference to Noah's flood. Not that I think of the apostles or Jesus in this way, but that is how he chooses to interpret what I think.
 
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Athene

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Why is it that scientists seem to be held in disdain by the YEC?

I've read a few threads in the YEC forum and I'd like to go straighten some misconceptions they have, but I don't want to be accused of decieving them with my 'science talk'
 
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theFijian

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Athene said:
Why is it that scientists seem to be held in disdain by the YEC?

Because they eroneously see Science as attempting to usurp the authority of God.

Athene said:
I've read a few threads in the YEC forum and I'd like to go straighten some misconceptions they have, but I don't want to be accused of decieving them with my 'science talk'

Just so you know, we're not supposed to 'debate' in the YEC forum, only ask questions.
 
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Athene

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theFijian said:
Because they eroneously see Science as attempting to usurp the authority of God.



Just so you know, we're not supposed to 'debate' in the YEC forum, only ask questions.

Just as well I haven't posted then.
 
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