Reading over the CO forum...

[mystery4]

i just dont see what is wrong with believing a science that didnt exist when the bible was written. i mean, for goodness sakes, people were jailed for saying the earth was round in the past. they said that it was blasphemous. and guess what....the earth is round! Does that make the Bible any less true? of course not. Does that mean that anyone who believes the earth is round is an agent of satan? Absolutely not. The bible states that it was written by man but inspired by God. Man at the time had to write it in ways they could understand. Only a few generations ago was it discovered that there is such a thing as microscopic organisms. And only half a century ago was DNA discovered. The bible is NOT a book of science. It was never meant to be.

I don't know if this post will get deleted or not, if it is against rules then I apologise. I agree with you neverforsaken. Theres nothing wrong with believing in science and the Bible. You are also right in saying the Bible isn't a book of science.

I don't know what has been said in CO forum as I haven't been there (prolly will check after this though). I'm also not sure what theistic origins entails or what they believe. Though I would consider myself a creationist who believes in evolution within species (not between species ie, start as one type of creature and "improve" to others) and believing that the Bible says the earth was created in 7 literal days. I also love science. Though I have a question, how does discovering the existance of microscopic organisms and DNA have to do with how the Bible says the earth was created? To me that just shows how incredibly God has created both humans and other animals and skilled he is at it. I can't help but marvel at how creative He really is to think up all these things in the first place!

I have not written this to cause an argument, but have just thought I would respond. I apologise if I have offended or hurt anyone by what I have said in this post. While I may not agree totally with this point of view, I hope that I can show that not all of us creationists like to attack those who believe in a slightly different view of how we were created and came to be.

 

[seebs]

Something I find curious is that this forum is lower traffic. I've seen Creationists complain that we "dominate" the overall Origins Theology forum... But we are apparently fewer and quieter in our private forum.

 

[BlackSaab52]

Something I find curious is that this forum is lower traffic. I've seen Creationists complain that we "dominate" the overall Origins Theology forum... But we are apparently fewer and quieter in our private forum.

I don't post much in the Origins Theology forum, but I have noticed from my usual lurking that the TE's seem to dominate the Origins Theology forum because their opinions tend to be more based on reason and fact, not on accusations that the people on the other side don't actually believe the Bible and other endless half-truths.

 

[BlackSaab52]

I agree. I'm kind of experiencing this myself. If I had never been a YEC, I might be fine now.

I'm a trusting person. Even if something doesn't make sense to me, I trust that whoever claims to know more must understand how it all works. I never thought Christians would lie to me. And, no, I don't think most creationists are lying. But the people in charge, the people who produce this bad science, are lying.

That hurts really bad when you realize what's happened. I used to be very anti-evolution. When an evolutionist said something that sounded pretty convincing, I just figured that someone had the answer to that. I trusted in the creation scientists. But slowly I began to feel uncomfortable and began to learn the truth about it. And now I have to wonder--if so many feel the need to keep up an illusion to make their faith seem more "valid," what else are we deluded about? What else are we misinterpreting so that it sounds nicer, or makes more sense?

I consider myself an open minded person, and I can accept new ideas about the Christian faith. But deep inside, I keep thinking, I was so wrong about Genesis. Could I be wrong about the whole thing?

It isn't accepting evolution that's hurt my faith; it's the fact that I was convinced that I had to reject it to make things work.

I can't really describe the turmoil this whole thing has caused in me, but all I can say, again, is that it hurts.

I was also raised YEC, and after I realized how wrong it really was, I felt totally duped. I didn't understand how the Christians (and many of these people I know who are YEC's are intelligent people) that I had known all my life could be so wrong on something like this. I don't think most YEC's are liars, but they get trapped in a way of thinking that keeps them from even considering that a less literal interpretation of Genesis 1 could be right. I was indoctrinated in my Christian school that all the other interpretations of Genesis 1 were done by worldly compromisers who didn't love God. And yet I was supposed to believe that whatever Ken Hamm said was the truth. You're not the only person who wonders if they've been wrong about the whole thing, either. I wonder that myself sometimes, too.

 

[wblastyn]

I agree. I'm kind of experiencing this myself. If I had never been a YEC, I might be fine now.

I'm a trusting person. Even if something doesn't make sense to me, I trust that whoever claims to know more must understand how it all works. I never thought Christians would lie to me. And, no, I don't think most creationists are lying. But the people in charge, the people who produce this bad science, are lying.

That hurts really bad when you realize what's happened. I used to be very anti-evolution. When an evolutionist said something that sounded pretty convincing, I just figured that someone had the answer to that. I trusted in the creation scientists. But slowly I began to feel uncomfortable and began to learn the truth about it. And now I have to wonder--if so many feel the need to keep up an illusion to make their faith seem more "valid," what else are we deluded about? What else are we misinterpreting so that it sounds nicer, or makes more sense?

I consider myself an open minded person, and I can accept new ideas about the Christian faith. But deep inside, I keep thinking, I was so wrong about Genesis. Could I be wrong about the whole thing?

It isn't accepting evolution that's hurt my faith; it's the fact that I was convinced that I had to reject it to make things work.

I can't really describe the turmoil this whole thing has caused in me, but all I can say, again, is that it hurts.

I have also experienced the same thing as you.

I was brought up in church as a YEC, and used to come to these forums to fight against the "evil atheists who believed the lie of evolution".

When the people here presented me with evidence supporting evolution it was hard to deny it, and I would even avoid certain people's posts because I knew they would make me feel uncomfortable. Eventually, I stopped ignoring the evidence and came to accept evolution.

I find my trust has been shaken with Christians, and although it's always good to question everything and "test the spirits", I find myself questioning what other Christians say more so than anyone else, simply because I don't trust them.

 

[seebs]

Could I be wrong on the whole thing? Yeah, I probably could.

Do I think I am? Not particularly.

Not much point in speculating. I could be a brain in a jar hooked up to a big computer, I could be a bunch of bits in some huge simulation... I don't know. I will live as though the world I am in is real, as though the God I interact with is real, as though the people I talk to have real feelings.

I think the lies used to support YEC positions are atypical; in most cases, you don't need lies to make Christianity work.

 

[shernren]

I have also experienced the same thing as you.

I was brought up in church as a YEC, and used to come to these forums to fight against the "evil atheists who believed the lie of evolution".

When the people here presented me with evidence supporting evolution it was hard to deny it, and I would even avoid certain people's posts because I knew they would make me feel uncomfortable. Eventually, I stopped ignoring the evidence and came to accept evolution.

I find my trust has been shaken with Christians, and although it's always good to question everything and "test the spirits", I find myself questioning what other Christians say more so than anyone else, simply because I don't trust them.

My story exactly.

 

[f U z ! o N]

i was the same way. i tried to fight off the evil evolutionists and the supposed lie of it all when i realized hey this is real. i researched and read and it has brought me closer to God than before.

 

[Critias]

One of the reasons I finally came to Christ at all was because I realized that there was actual scientific proof for the Bible. I'm a logically minded person and I had a lot of trouble with "faith". Its nice that people can have blind faith and just ignore everything around them I suppose, but for me I use the logical mind God gave me and I couldn't get past science.

Then I figured out that the two didn't have to go against one another. That one actually supported the other, that science is a way for me to understand God's world *better*

And to be honest, I think if more people were to realize show others that science and the Bible are not at odds, then more people could be brought to Christ, because we are entering an increasingly logical- and scientific-minded world.

For me it was evidence that opened my heart up to *faith*. Some people don't like that. They say I should have "just had faith" to begin with. Well tough to you, bucko, because that ain't how it happened And isn't it better that I am in Christ now through the way I came rather then to have said "hey, science and faith can't work together, so I guess I can't have faith it makes no sense to me" and never come to Christ at all?

The Bible made *sense* to me, it still makes *sense* to me, and I have faith in God and belief in science that are very much dwelling together in harmony

~ ~

There are many creationists here who will disagree with you on origins, but at the same time praise God for the addition of you into the family of Jesus Christ.

I have said many times that I think TEs have a unique opportunity to evangelize to those who are scientifically minded. I don't see much of that happening online, here at this forum. Rather, I see TEs and atheists together making fun of YECs instead of evangelising to the atheists.

We can agree to disagree on origns, but there is no reason for any TE to go out and make fun of their brothers/sisters and put them down to make them feel idiotic. That is not building one up in love, it is rather a selfish reason to destroy another.

I pray one day that it can stop and we can treat this inheritance we have with respect instead of trying to cut the Body of Christ's leg off.

 

[theFijian]

There are many creationists here who will disagree with you on origins, but at the same time praise God for the addition of you into the family of Jesus Christ.

I have said many times that I think TEs have a unique opportunity to evangelize to those who are scientifically minded. I don't see much of that happening online, here at this forum. Rather, I see TEs and atheists together making fun of YECs instead of evangelising to the atheists.

We can agree to disagree on origns, but there is no reason for any TE to go out and make fun of their brothers/sisters and put them down to make them feel idiotic. That is not building one up in love, it is rather a selfish reason to destroy another.

I pray one day that it can stop and we can treat this inheritance we have with respect instead of trying to cut the Body of Christ's leg off.

Perhaps you should try looking harder because when I visit the open Creation/Evolution forum I see Creationists engaging in goading, baiting, trolling, initiating slanging matches, flinging insults, perpetuating lies and half-truths, displaying utter contempt and disrespect to those they are debating and just being generally rude to both non-christians and their fellow christians. (I could list their names here but I'd probably get into trouble.) Is that evangelising? In fact it's the TEs who demonstrate that you can reconcile faith with evolution who are actually evangelising the atheists.

 

[Critias]

Is evangelizing to you putting down creationists at all cost?

Lady Kate said making fun of creationists and putting them down with atheists is a good way to evangelize, do you agree?

 

[theFijian]

Is evangelizing to you putting down creationists at all cost?

No, did I say it was? Are you trying to excuse the outrageous behaviour of some Creationists in the open C/E forum?

Lady Kate said making fun of creationists and putting them down with atheists is a good way to evangelize, do you agree?

I disagree with her. Do you think lying, being insulting and contemptuous, engaging in baiting and trolling are good ways for Creationists to evangelise? If not, then can you explain why some Creationists are engaging in these types of activities in the open C/E forum?

 

[The Lady Kate]

Lady Kate said making fun of creationists and putting them down with atheists is a good way to evangelize, do you agree?

Now when did I say that? Mocking certain YECs isn't "evangilization," it's damage control.


http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=18261752#post18261752

 

[The Lady Kate]

In fact it's the TEs who demonstrate that you can reconcile faith with evolution who are actually evangelising the atheists.

As well as showing that the tactics employed by YECs is not, and should not be seen as representing Christianity as a whole.

 

[Critias]

No, did I say it was? Are you trying to excuse the outrageous behaviour of some Creationists in the open C/E forum?

No, you didn't. That is why I asked. Why would I excuse any Christian who thinks it is healthy to attack fellow Christians with name calling and insults? I would not.

I disagree with her. Do you think lying, being insulting and contemptuous, engaging in baiting and trolling are good ways for Creationists to evangelise? If not, then can you explain why some Creationists are engaging in these types of activities in the open C/E forum?

No, I don't. Because some creationists are immature Christians and let their passion for their beliefs become intangled with their past behavior that they were so used to.

I have witnessed many of the TEs in this forum actively pursuing to insult, berate, lie, and commit personal attacks on creationists for their belief. They take stands with atheists in these activities.

These are TEs who have been at this forum for several years, claiming to be mature Christians. They act as if they love to batter other Christians.

Lady Kate calls it damage control. Seebs and Gluady's call creationists the most dangerous sect to Christianity. Forget those who deny Jesus Christ as God and who lead others to this belief, creationists who accept Jesus Christ as God are worst.

Statements like these say a lot about the state of the Church. To say that teaching Jesus Christ is not God is better than teaching against evolution is foolishness. To go out an spend your time to destroy those who accept Jesus Christ as the the Living God because you don't like the fact they believe a six day creation taught in the Bible, is foolishness. And then turn the other cheek and say those who teach against Jesus being the Living God aren't as harmful as those who believe a six day creation; What has happened to the Church?

The mockery of Christianity, the TEs aid to build. For it is the TEs who help keep the mocking going instead of standing against it. And if one, two or a more creationists are being foolish and doing the same thing, TEs, like you, will dismiss your own actions of fellow TEs as no big deal. It is wrong that any creationist goes out and mocks, lies, berates, or personally attacks ANYONE.

It is truely sad how we all love to justify our own sinful nature and fuel its fire.

 

[The Lady Kate]

I have witnessed many of the TEs in this forum actively pursuing to insult, berate, lie, and commit personal attacks on creationists for their belief. They take stands with atheists in these activities.

And I have seen many TEs reacting to self-inflated nonsense through humor.

These are TEs who have been at this forum for several years, claiming to be mature Christians. They act as if they love to batter other Christians.

Being a fellow Christian doesn't guarantee a free pass for being nonsensical and belligerent.

Lady Kate calls it damage control. Seebs and Gluady's call creationists the most dangerous sect to Christianity. Forget those who deny Jesus Christ as God and who lead others to this belief, creationists who accept Jesus Christ as God are worst.

What's worse? Atheists who lead people away from God, or Creationists who drive people away?

Statements like these say a lot about the state of the Church. To say that teaching Jesus Christ is not God is better than teaching against evolution is foolishness.

Um... saying Jesus Christ is not God is not part of the Church.

To go out an spend your time to destroy those who accept Jesus Christ as the the Living God because you don't like the fact they believe a six day creation taught in the Bible, is foolishness.

Perhaps, but to stand by those who speak gibberish claiming it's Divinely Inspired is far worse foolishness.

And then turn the other cheek and say those who teach against Jesus being the Living God aren't as harmful as those who believe a six day creation; What has happened to the Church?

Sad but true... the biggest damage to the Church comes from within.

The mockery of Christianity, the TEs aid to build. For it is the TEs who help keep the mocking going instead of standing against it.

Creationism is being mocked, not Christianity.

And if one, two or a more creationists are being foolish and doing the same thing, TEs, like you, will dismiss your own actions of fellow TEs as no big deal. It is wrong that any creationist goes out and mocks, lies, berates, or personally attacks ANYONE.

Not dismissed as nothing, but understood as retaliation.

It is truely sad how we all love to justify our own sinful nature and fuel its fire.

None of us are perfect...nor do we claim to be.

 

[Critias]

And I have seen many TEs reacting to self-inflated nonsense through humor.



Being a fellow Christian doesn't guarantee a free pass for being nonsensical and belligerent.

I would hope for unity in evangelism, but that doesn't seem to be our future here.

What's worse? Atheists who lead people away from God, or Creationists who drive people away?



Um... saying Jesus Christ is not God is not part of the Church.

There are people who claim to be Christians who deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Yet, you worry more about creationists than these people.

There are people who say Jesus isn't the only way and claim to Christians. Yet, you don't seem to think they are a threat like creationists.

There are the Jehova Witnesses, Mormons, false teachers, and the Jesus Seminar that you confirm are less harmful to Christianity than creationists.

You silently say it is ok to deny Jesus Christ, but try your best for others to not accept creationism. Creationism is the true danger, not deny the Lord God Almighty it seems from your point of view.

Perhaps, but to stand by those who speak gibberish claiming it's Divinely Inspired is far worse foolishness.

And who deems it gibberish? You? Science? Secular man who denies Jesus Christ?

The Athenians called Paul's teaching babble. It was foolishness to them, just as God creating the nations of men from one man is foolishness to you.

Sad but true... the biggest damage to the Church comes from within.

Yes, and 2 Peter talks about this well saying there will be those who claim to be Christians who are not. They spread false teachings and it will ignite like wild fire. And these teachings will deny the deity of Jesus Christ.

You agree that deny the deity of Jesus Christ is far less harmful than believing creationism.

Creationism is being mocked, not Christianity.

Creationism has been apart of Christianity since the day Jesus Christ walked the earth. And if Jesus taught at anytime that God did create in six days, you are mocking Jesus Christ as well.

Not dismissed as nothing, but understood as retaliation.

Where in the Bible does tell us as Christians to retaliate?

None of us are perfect...nor do we claim to be.

No, we are far from it. But I am appalled that you would state creationism is worse than deny Jesus Christ.

 

[theFijian]

No, I don't. Because some creationists are immature Christians and let their passion for their beliefs become intangled with their past behavior that they were so used to.
...
These are TEs who have been at this forum for several years, claiming to be mature Christians. They act as if they love to batter other Christians.

I see you employ a double standard. Creationists who act this way are immature and don't seem to know any better whereas TEs are mature and are acting with premeditation. I had hoped for better from you.

Creationism has been apart of Christianity since the day Jesus Christ walked the earth. And if Jesus taught at anytime that God did create in six days, you are mocking Jesus Christ as well.

This is the nub of it right here. The conflation of pseudoscience with the infallible word of God, that rather than believing the doctrine of Creation we must believe the doctrine of Creationism. There will never be unity or even amicable disagreement until this is dropped.

However at the end of the day, none of us are without fault. Let's all of us remove the plank from our own eye first.

 

[The Lady Kate]

I would hope for unity in evangelism, but that doesn't seem to be our future here.

I have no interest whatsoever in using Creationism as a tool for evangelism.

There are people who claim to be Christians who deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Yet, you worry more about creationists than these people.

Those who deny the deity of Jesus Christ have not been proactive in an ongoing political campaign to shove that belief down the throats of Christians and Atheists alike.... Creationists are more aggressive, so they are more worth worrying about.

There are people who say Jesus isn't the only way and claim to Christians. Yet, you don't seem to think they are a threat like creationists.

Again... how aggressive are they in our schools and politics as compared to Creationists?

There are the Jehova Witnesses, Mormons, false teachers, and the Jesus Seminar that you confirm are less harmful to Christianity than creationists.

One more time, what have any of them ever done to me?

You silently say it is ok to deny Jesus Christ,

That's a strong accusation... as well as a baseless one. See how quickly you've written me off?

but try your best for others to not accept creationism. Creationism is the true danger, not deny the Lord God Almighty it seems from your point of view.

Those who deny the Lord God almighty at least have the courtesy to be private about it. At least they're not trying to re-write the educational system in their own image.

And who deems it gibberish? You? Science? Secular man who denies Jesus Christ?

All of the above... and then some.

The Athenians called Paul's teaching babble. It was foolishness to them,

Paul's faith was sincere, but his rhetoric needed work. Of course he was laughed out of Athens... He was debating against professionals, and came up short.

just as God creating the nations of men from one man is foolishness to you.

See how easy it is for you to see me as the enemy?

Yes, and 2 Peter talks about this well saying there will be those who claim to be Christians who are not. They spread false teachings and it will ignite like wild fire. And these teachings will deny the deity of Jesus Christ.

So what? How is this relevent?

You agree that deny the deity of Jesus Christ is far less harmful than believing creationism.

We can't save every soul, but at least we can do our best to stop them from dragging others down in their wake.

Creationism has been apart of Christianity since the day Jesus Christ walked the earth. And if Jesus taught at anytime that God did create in six days, you are mocking Jesus Christ as well.

And now we have the inevitable ultimatum... to deny Creationism is to deny Christ.

And nothing drives people away in droves as well as ultimatums.

By all means....feel free to keep proving my points for me.

Where in the Bible does tell us as Christians to retaliate?

Nowhere. That doesn't mean it's not a part of the fallen human condition.

No, we are far from it. But I am appalled that you would state creationism is worse than deny Jesus Christ.

It does more damage to our faith... at least in the current sociopolitical climate. More damage = worse.

 

[Critias]

I see you employ a double standard. Creationists who act this way are immature and don't seem to know any better whereas TEs are mature and are acting with premeditation. I had hoped for better from you.

I didn't say TEs that do this are mature. I said they "say" they are mature because they have been a Christian for X amount of years.

I believe those who participate in these actions are all immature.

This is the nub of it right here. The conflation of pseudoscience with the infallible word of God, that rather than believing the doctrine of Creation we must believe the doctrine of Creationism. There will never be unity or even amicable disagreement until this is dropped.

Actually, I was not talking about pseudoscience. I was talking about what the Bible actually says about creation: God created in six days. If one studies the Hebrew language to find out if this was meant as allegorical or literal, one can clearly see that the linguistics point to a historical narrative. Granted, one must study this, but if you apply yourself, it shouldn't be too hard.

Now, if your statement is that there will never be unity until YECs accept that the Bible does not state creation in six days, you are right. The words "six days" are quite clear. The Hebrew renders the text a historical narrative and it has been understood to be historical for over 2000 years.

I cannot just close my eyes and be blind to the fact that the Bible does say six days.

However at the end of the day, none of us are without fault. Let's all of us remove the plank from our own eye first.

I agree. We are all at fault. I just wonder why TEs think it is just swell to go and befriend atheists just for the sake of putting down YECs. Lady Kate proves the point above that denying Jesus Christ is not as bad as believing a six day creation; it is better to deny Jesus Christ then to believe a six day creation.

That says a lot for TEs who agree with her.