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read the Bible, but which one?

JBMM

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I have three versions of the bible.

Being Catholic, I bought an NAB St. Joseph Edition, which says "dome" much like the NRSV.

I also have an NRSV version that has the Apocrypha / Dueterocanonical books in it (some extras that aren't in the NAB [which does have books such as Tobit, Wisdom, etc.])

I also have a KJV, but I use it sparingly.

Anyway, ttyl. :)
 
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ebia

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I also have an NRSV version that has the Apocrypha / Dueterocanonical books in it (some extras that aren't in the NAB [which does have books such as Tobit, Wisdom, etc.])
Your NAB will only have the Catholic canon, whereas the NRSV will have the slightly fuller Eastern Orthodox canon.
 
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Bryanfromiowa

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This one of the most debated subjects in all of christendom. Keep in mind unless you are reading the original hebrew, greek,aramaic you are reading a translation with the oldest parts of the new testament especially likely a translation of a copy of a copy. If you're not sure about a text read a couple of versions (available free on the web) and ask the holy spirit to speak the truth into your heart.
 
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MorkandMindy

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Lets see if I understand this thread. All translations have flaws and it takes too much time to compare the various translations to determine the best translation of a particular passage. This is followed by "after my conversion I was unable to grasp God's plan for my life because all of the efforts I made failed to put my life in perspective.


no,

The following principles will explain how you can personally begin a relationship with God, right now, through Jesus Christ.

God loves you and offers a wonderful plan for your life.


I was never able to find that plan. I was told to search the scriptures and there in Luke was all the 'take up your cross and follow me', give up all that you have and preach the coming of the Kingdom message. But I never got clear what the Kingdom of Heaven actually was either, so I didn't really have a message. As for the 'right now' well I gave it ten years.

I don't see where you got the 'because all of the efforts I made failed to put my life in perspective.'

I have never attempted to put my life in perspective. Just knowing what to do now would have been enough but I couldn't find even that.


It sounds like you never went through a discipleship program to ground you in the fundamentals of the faith.


I went through a 6-month introduction to Christianity then into a standard Bible Study group.

Half of the group I was in were Calvinists and half were Arminians. Lots of experienced Christians. Found out early on it is impossible to achieve agreement on anything you don't already have agreement on.


Lets talk a little bit about "firmament." Most modern translations use the word "expanse" rather than firmament. But is it any better? Probably not. Dome seems to be a better translation, capturing the idea of a beaten out inverted bowl for the apparent shape of the sky, coming down to the horizon on all sides yet high above as we look up. But do we really need the translators to put what we consider the best word in every case before we pour ourselves into real bible study? I think not.

Lets say there is a word which does not communicate with our understanding such as firmament or expanse. What should we do, toss our bible out because it is flawed?
Or should we use bible study tools to figure out what the author intended by his use of the Hebrew or Greek word translated as firmament or expanse.

Someone above suggested using the Blue Letter Bible. If you go here:
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
you will find the idea is a hemisphere above the earth. So dome works well.
And note that every usage of the word is listed and dome works well in every case.
So without tossing either the KJV or the NIV we can get the actual meaning because of the readily available study tools.


The problem is more deep-rooted. I'm even beginning to think if the NIV team had wanted to they would have produced a more accurate version.

I'm also fairly sure that my personal Bible Study course starting in Luke, mixing in Genesis, moving on to Acts and Exodus, and so on, did more to confuse me than help me.


Now some verses lend themselves to very different interpretations, and that is why some Christians believe in the doctrines of Calvinism, and others think Calvinism is false doctrine.

But the basics of Christianity can be gleamed from most any Bible (NIV, KJV, ESV, NRSV and my favorite, the NASB.) All have flaws but with study you can gain a good understanding of God's plan for your life. Christ died for you, and you should be willing to "die" for Christ which is to say abandon whatever is inhibiting you from being a faithful servant of Christ. And you cannot teach others "all that Christ commanded" unless you have learned what Christ has commanded of you.

May God Bless

I thought I had found out most of what Christ commanded, a lot of it came down to helping others in need, giving up everything and going and preaching the coming of the Kingdom. I noticed nobody else was nearly as keen. And I wasn't succeeding, but I was told that the Holy Spirit would guide me into all truth, and transform me, and without God I could do nothing and that I had completely the wrong end of the stick to think that I should be trying at all.
 
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ebia

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I can't help thinking when I read your posts that you were in the wrong church - that in a different style of congregation with more emphasis on living the faith and less on simplistic answers you'd have thrived.
 
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christianmomof3

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Someone above suggested using the Blue Letter Bible. If you go here:
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
So without tossing either the KJV or the NIV we can get the actual meaning because of the readily available study tools.

But the basics of Christianity can be gleamed from most any Bible
All have flaws
As far as Bible translations, I would agree with this. There is no perfect translation. I like Blue Letter Bible and I have a variety of different translations that I read from at different times. My favorites are The Recovery Version, New American Standard and Revised Standard Version.
I also like to look at the Amplified version and Young's literal translation. A good site that has many of these online is http://www.biblegateway.com/
and the Recovery Version New Testament is online at The New Testament Recovery Version Online
God loves you and offers a wonderful plan for your life.
I was never able to find that plan.
God's plan is to have a group of people who are filled with Him as their life who are built up together in His life, taking Him as their head to express Him and represent Him.
God's plan for you is that you would be filled with Him as your life and that you would take Him as your head and that you would be built up together with other Christians in His life and share Him and His life and His love with others.
I pray that the Lord will lead you to a group of Christians with whom you can enjoy Him and His life.:prayer:
 
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Van

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Hi Mork and Mindy, I see you are making a consider effort to disagree with me. When you say "knowing what to do now would have been enough" that is what I meant by putting your life in perspective. Seeing God's plan for your life.

You say you went through a six month "introduction to Christianity" course but still do not know what the kingdom of heaven is. Sorry but going through a class and failing to learn the fundamentals does not equate with going through a discipleship program that grounds you in the fundamentals of the faith.

Lets take the "kingdom of heaven" for example. This means the same as the kingdom of God. Now because of the fall, you were conceived separated from God, so before folks are saved, they are not "in" the kingdom of God. When a person is saved, they are in the kingdom of God. Is the kingdom a physical place located somewhere in God's physical creation? Nope, it is a spiritual place. Thus the kingdom of God is within the saved person because God indwells spiritually the saved person. That is why we have verses that say repent and be saved for the kingdom of God is at hand.

It is not impossible to reach agreement on the meaning of scripture. If you have folks who hold to doctrines because that is what they were taught, and they cannot accept the fact that they were misled, then no agreement can be reached. I have had discussions with others and changed my mind as to what the passage was saying based on their study of the passage, and on the other hand, others have told me they have come to the conclusion that the view of scripture I had presented seems to make more sense in light of all scripture.

The idea that the NIV team intentionally mistranslated scriptures reflects a worldly view.

I agree with you that your study to date has left you confused. A discipleship program where you work with a more mature Christian is what the Bible says new Christians should go through.

I went through the book of Matthew and attempted to put into my own words every command Christ presented in His teachings. I came up with about 75 different commands (or instructions). The reason I put them in my own words, paraphrases if you will, was to make sure I personally had a understanding of the command. If you just say "preach the kingdom" without knowing what that entails, you do not know the command.

And lastly you say you were not "succeeding" but I was not sure whether you meant you had not presented the pure gospel, or that you had not succeeded in learning God's plan for your life.

May God Bless
 
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MorkandMindy

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Hi Mork and Mindy, I see you are making a consider effort to disagree with me. When you say "knowing what to do now would have been enough" that is what I meant by putting your life in perspective. Seeing God's plan for your life.

You say you went through a six month "introduction to Christianity" course but still do not know what the kingdom of heaven is. Sorry but going through a class and failing to learn the fundamentals does not equate with going through a discipleship program that grounds you in the fundamentals of the faith.

Lets take the "kingdom of heaven" for example. This means the same as the kingdom of God. Now because of the fall, you were conceived separated from God, so before folks are saved, they are not "in" the kingdom of God. When a person is saved, they are in the kingdom of God. Is the kingdom a physical place located somewhere in God's physical creation? Nope, it is a spiritual place. Thus the kingdom of God is within the saved person because God indwells spiritually the saved person. That is why we have verses that say repent and be saved for the kingdom of God is at hand.

It is not impossible to reach agreement on the meaning of scripture. If you have folks who hold to doctrines because that is what they were taught, and they cannot accept the fact that they were misled, then no agreement can be reached. I have had discussions with others and changed my mind as to what the passage was saying based on their study of the passage, and on the other hand, others have told me they have come to the conclusion that the view of scripture I had presented seems to make more sense in light of all scripture.

The idea that the NIV team intentionally mistranslated scriptures reflects a worldly view.

I agree with you that your study to date has left you confused. A discipleship program where you work with a more mature Christian is what the Bible says new Christians should go through.

I went through the book of Matthew and attempted to put into my own words every command Christ presented in His teachings. I came up with about 75 different commands (or instructions). The reason I put them in my own words, paraphrases if you will, was to make sure I personally had a understanding of the command. If you just say "preach the kingdom" without knowing what that entails, you do not know the command.

And lastly you say you were not "succeeding" but I was not sure whether you meant you had not presented the pure gospel, or that you had not succeeded in learning God's plan for your life.

May God Bless

Sorry, I should have worded that a lot more lightly, basically I was after the 'live a new life' as in the David Watson book, rather than make sense of the life I had at that point, and to put to death the old nature as in my baptismal promise. But despite the way we initially expressed it, we do seem to mean the same thing so that is good.


It is difficult to define 'wasn't succeeding' but if you saw it you would know it. I was not succeeding in any way; my academic work got worse, I wasn't better company, and my weekly evangelism outings, and I was one of only 2 who went on them, had not produced any converts.

Before I became a Christian my own way of thinking and emotional state had been progressing as a result of reading books, but when I became a Christian I spent a lot of time trying to understand the Bible and everything else suffered; if it wasn't about the Bible I didn't read it so I stopped developing. True the Bible did come to life for me, what I read about in the Gospels and to some extent in other parts seemed to happen later that day. But it didn't seem to have that much effect over the long term.

The things that did in the end turn out to be crucial were actually the 'putting my life in perspective' things. One of the most crucial was reading some John Taylor Gatto which showed which of my bad habits had originated in the school system and how. Once identified they only took about 5 years to stamp out.

I like your approach of collecting commands out of Matthew and then applying them.
 
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MorkandMindy

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As far as Bible translations, I would agree with this. There is no perfect translation. I like Blue Letter Bible and I have a variety of different translations that I read from at different times. My favorites are The Recovery Version, New American Standard and Revised Standard Version.
I also like to look at the Amplified version and Young's literal translation. A good site that has many of these online is BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages.
and the Recovery Version New Testament is online at The New Testament Recovery Version Online

God's plan is to have a group of people who are filled with Him as their life who are built up together in His life, taking Him as their head to express Him and represent Him.
God's plan for you is that you would be filled with Him as your life and that you would take Him as your head and that you would be built up together with other Christians in His life and share Him and His life and His love with others.
I pray that the Lord will lead you to a group of Christians with whom you can enjoy Him and His life.:prayer:

I like their Bible Study guide a lot more than the one I had, both mine and a few others I saw were of the 'dot all over the place' variety.


I can't help thinking when I read your posts that you were in the wrong church - that in a different style of congregation with more emphasis on living the faith and less on simplistic answers you'd have thrived.

That thought keeps crossing my mind too.

PERHAPS
A JW church might have the level of consistency between the scriptures saying to announce the coming of the Kingdom, and actually going out and doing it.

In application of Christian teachings to our everyday lives, the Catholics seem to be very good.

BUT IN REALITY
I started off Episcopal / Anglican, and found little to do as the Churches were really for over 80s. I guess I was unlucky, at the Anglican Church I went to the vicar suggested one practical thing I could do would be to mow the graveyard, which was really the wrong thing to suggest since I had recently read: 'let the dead bury their own dead', frankly the 90% of the church over 80 had plenty of time to mow grass.

I was with the Brethren but their own theology clashed with James which was one book we were studying. A Methodist Church was really all families. Free Evangelical was pretty good but I left the area. I attended a house church but apart from lots of praising nothing else seemed to happen.

I followed the advice that it is necessary not to dot about with churches but get involved with one. I joined an Evangelical Free (unaware it wasn't Free Evangelical), and found you can get too familiar with people and discover in many cases their religion is very thin, and in just a very few others that deep conviction seems to result in going here and there with every bit of scripture understood.

Somehow my desire to 'Live a New Life' never found a home.
 
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ebia

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That thought keeps crossing my mind too.

PERHAPS
A JW church might have the level of consistency between the scriptures saying to announce the coming of the Kingdom, and actually going out and doing it.

In application of Christian teachings to our everyday lives, the Catholics seem to be very good.
Indeed.

BUT IN REALITY
I started off Episcopal / Anglican, and found little to do as the Churches were really for over 80s. I guess I was unlucky, at the Anglican Church I went to the vicar suggested one practical thing I could do would be to mow the graveyard, which was really the wrong thing to suggest since I had recently read: 'let the dead bury their own dead', frankly the 90% of the church over 80 had plenty of time to mow grass.
^_^ Sorry.

We aren't all like that.
 
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MorkandMindy

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NASB is very good for the New Testament while the Jerusalem Bible is among the best for the OT. Just read one which speaks to YOU.

I can see your point about the Jerusalem Bible (this is the New Jerusalem Bible) just on the tiny bit I read:

6 God said, 'Let there be a vault through the middle of the waters to divide the waters in two.' And so it was.
7 God made the vault, and it divided the waters under the vault from the waters above the vault. Gen 1 NJB

Which is pretty good as both vaults and domes existed then and match the need to find something strong, and without a central support.


And your point about the NT
Jesus replied, 'Mine is not a kingdom of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my men would have fought to prevent my being surrendered to the Jews. As it is, my kingdom does not belong here.'

But on that passage the NASB also says:
'Jesus answered, " My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." John 18 v36 NASB
 
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MorkandMindy

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Both the NIV and KJV are accurate Bibles, but people get hung up on 1611 English. I use both personally.

The verses you're listing are poetic in the description of God's creation as well. It helps to not take them over-literally. You do need to take the Bible literally, as in this prophet did exist, really say these things, and really do this miracle, and when it gives you a command, it really is God's command. But over-literal interpretation like the earth being a metal bowl or Solomon's wife's hair being a flock of goats just isn't what anyone needs to do, and it's not what conservative believers mean by "taking the Bible literally."


Wow, this is a big topic.

I'll just give my own chronology in it.

I started as a Bible-believing Evangelical, so accepted the whole Bible and I think that accounts for the confusion.

A year later I had met Fundamentalists and their theology was much simpler, but having started as an Evangelical I couldn't see how totally abandoning works fit with James or the Gospels, it wasn't until much later I found many modern Dispensationalists have resolved that by dumping the Gospels into the Old Testament since it was preached to the Jews before the resurrection.

Being an Evangelical and accepting Covenant Theology I had to take the whole Bible as being God's message, and also accepted the Fundamentalist position on top of the Creation accounts and Noah's Flood.

There was always a logical problem over what belonged in the Canon because nothing in the Bible specifies that, and there certainly are a lot of opinions about what should be in and what should be out. The Churches have moved together somewhat on this issue since then.

But that is one question the Bible clearly can not answer and it is a vitally important one.

The problem of guidance was another sticking point.

But I came unstuck on Noah's Flood. Our Minister who was an utterly sincere Christian and extremely knowledgeable as a totally convinced Christian should be, had no suggestions on whether the Flood was local or global, but lent me a book on the topic. Evidently he hadn't read or remembered the book because it was equally unclear on the point and admitted to a total lack of any scientific knowledge.

I read 'The Great Brain Robbery' by Dr David Watson, and he insisted there was no way to class the start of Genesis as metaphorical because it was written in the same way and using the same words as the later parts. He absolutely insisted it had to be all true exactly as written.

Unfortunately his doctorate only covered theology, when he started trying to justify his decision from the science end it was all nonsense.

That really sealed my escape route; I couldn't do the 'if it is true then it is literal and if it isn't then it is meant to be taken metaphorically' thing on it.
 
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ebia

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FWIW on the story of Noah, I don't think it corresponds to a particular real flood at all. It almost certainly has some roots in one or more real floods, via other people's flood stories most likely. But fundamentally it's not a piece of history, local or global. Its an answer in narrative form to the question "if God is so powerful, why doesn't he simply wipe out evil?"
 
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christianmomof3

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No offense intended - only humor - I just saw this and it made me think of this thread.
129109064323815804.jpg

Sometimes things seem that way.
 
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MorkandMindy

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No offense intended - only humor - I just saw this and it made me think of this thread.
129109064323815804.jpg

Sometimes things seem that way.


That pretty much sums my 'hall visiting' going around campus telling people the Good News.


Difficulty in getting absolutely clear on the basic message when I knew there were scriptures that said very different things was a challenge. My Bible study group was split 50:50 on predestination, I wasn't clear on what was necessary for salvation; I was caught up in the faith / works question. I couldn't preach the 'God has a wonderful plan for your life' because I am still not clear on what it means.

Getting together with a group of other people who have God as their head might be the answer but it was tried in various parts of campus with mixed results. A Christian house I spent a lot of time in had one Christian who spent 45 minutes cleaning the sink and felt it was not part of God's calling to him to clean, or to do anything for the house. Ten years later he was still unemployed because he didn't like waking up in the morning either.

As for the guidance I wanted, the usual reply: 'pray and read the Bible' seemed a lot l like giving someone who wants the directions to the store a World Atlas.
 
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MorkandMindy

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FWIW on the story of Noah, I don't think it corresponds to a particular real flood at all. It almost certainly has some roots in one or more real floods, via other people's flood stories most likely. But fundamentally it's not a piece of history, local or global. Its an answer in narrative form to the question "if God is so powerful, why doesn't he simply wipe out evil?"

Hi ebia,

Thank you for your reply, it has been very interesting.

My problem with it is knowing where to stop, it seems applicable to any part of the Bible, for example:

Gen 1 and Gen 2 are there to contrast with what God really did, to show that although He could have done it in 6 days, how very much more patient God is than anyone could ever have imagined
 
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ebia

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Hi ebia,

Thank you for your reply, it has been very interesting.

My problem with it is knowing where to stop, it seems applicable to any part of the Bible, for example:

Gen 1 and Gen 2 are there to contrast with what God really did, to show that although He could have done it in 6 days, how very much more patient God is than anyone could ever have imagined
Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 (two very separate stories) say all sorts of exciting things about God and us that have nothing whatsover to do with the exact mechanics and chronology of creation.

As to where to draw the line - I don't think one can draw hard and fast lines and say "this is pure myth and this is precise history", stuff doesn't categorise like that. But at a number of points the character of the text changes significantly - one of those points is roughly at the start of Genesis 12 (Genesis 10-11 are linking texts so the boundary is a bit fuzzy). Genesis 1-10 roughly are prologue - they tell us what the problem with the world is in narrative form. Genesis 12 through the rest of the scriptures is the story of what God is doing to put those things to rights beginning with and through the call of Abraham and his family. That's not to say everything thereafter is strictly history as a 20th century historian would write it, but the text appears at least to become increasingly grounded in real events as you go on from there.
 
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MorkandMindy

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How then should we understand for example this passage, the first of many after entering the promised land -

Joshua 6 20&21 (NRSV)

20So the people shouted, and the trumpets were blown. As soon as the people heard the sound of the trumpets, they raised a great shout, and the wall fell down flat; so the people charged straight ahead into the city and captured it. 21Then they devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys.
 
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ebia

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In what terms? To be honest, the question "to what extent is the book of Joshua accurate to the historical events of the time?" is an academic question. I have some thoughts on that, but its largely the wrong question. The book is about God's covenant with Israel, his faithfulness in delivering what he promised that sets the scene for Judges which is about how Israel fails to live up to its part time and time again and what the consequences of that are.

Whatever the actual events were, the stories are written more for thelogical point than historical precision. But, to be quite honest, I haven't spent that much time on Joshua and Judges.
 
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Katianna

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Hi MorkandMindy and everyone

Im a newbie and being new to the forum I am coming in late to your thread and have to say how remarkable it is --- thank you so much for starting this thread and how incredible all the answers were to your queries.

I learned so much and was wowed at the maturity of people's sincerity and faith.

hope you dont mind if I go back to the word firmament:
here is a definition from the dictionary:
–noun the vault of heaven; sky.

Origin:
1250–1300; ME < LL firm&#257;mentum sky, L: support, prop, stay, equiv. to firm&#257;(re) to strengthen, support (see firm2) + -mentum -ment

Gen 1 v7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.

the word firmament which was created in 1250-1300 can be translated to a scientific term under geophysics, troposphere, atmosphere, Ionosphere.

if you google Ionosphere and go look in wikipedia you will get a detailed scientific explanation of the firmament that God made.

the earth has changed a great deal since God first made it. the waters above the firmament are not as it was when originally made, some scientists have conjectured that the weather around the globe was the same, no desert conditions anywhere.

The atmosphere is in a sense 'holding up' and indeed protecting us from the radiation of the sun in the magnetosphere - when you read the article in wikipedia its like reading the very reason God created it all - to strengthen and support.

God bless you!
 
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