Reaching perfection

[Undead]

we are arguing semantics.. the OP was can we reach a level of perfection where we do not sin. The simple answer is no. And we are to walk circumspectly, not as fools. We should sometimes take a look in the mirror-- not to stare at our beauty, but rather the opposite--to see the spinach in our teeth.

Prov 27:19
As in water face reflects face,
So a man’s heart reveals the man.

I was making a different point-- where I heard a young pastor (who was nearly 300 pounds) claim that he had reached a place of sinlessness in his life. And all I'm saying to that, is I don't believe it. Those that preach it put burdens on baby-Christians that believe there is now something wrong with them.

We should always strive to please our Father and we should always try to sin as little as possible--but the idea is not to focus on the "not sinning" but Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

Here is a good book I recommend for you:
https://www.amazon.com/Cure-What-Isnt-Think-Neither-ebook/dp/B006G3NFR0


The Cure Quotes

“God has given us the DNA of righteousness. We are saints. Nothing we do will make us more righteous than we already are. Nothing we do will alter this reality. God knows our DNA. He knows that we are "Christ in me." And now He is asking us to join Him in what He knows is true!”
― John S. Lynch, The cure


“What if repentance wasn't a promise from you to God but a gift from God to you?”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Grace is the face love wears, when it meets imperfection.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“No one told me that when I wear a mask, only my mask receives love.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“The quality of your life is based in trusting this: Where you are right now is the perfect place for you, or the God of all goodness and power would not allow you to be there.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“God allows some pain to awaken our hearts.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“This life in Christ is not about what I can do to make myself worthy of His acceptance, but about daily trusting what He has done to make me worthy of His acceptance.7”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“God never tells me to get over something and just get past it. Never. Instead, He asks me to trust Him with every circumstance.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Grace always invites rather than demands reconciliation.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“There are two gods: The one we see through our shame, and the One who actually is.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“What if there was a place so safe that the worst of me could be known, and I would discover that I would not be loved less, but more In the telling of it?”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“The mundane, agonizing details of life build and build like bricks. Soon we are too weary of wrestling with our everyday existence to entertain grand visions of destiny.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Self-protection is one of the great oxymorons. We're the only person in the world we don't have the potential to protect.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Where you are right now is the perfect place for you, or the God of all goodness and power would not allow you to be there.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Blame is often a commentary on the unresolved, hidden sin in the blâmer.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“What if it was less important that anything ever gets fixed than that nothing has to be hidden?”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“sin finds its power when I hide.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“We're hardwired for heartfelt obedience. We have to be religiously badgered into compliance, which leads to eventual disobedience. Only bad theology can do that. Sin and failure is all we think we have until new life is wooed forth. We need others to show us God beautifully, without condemnation, disgust, and unsatisfied demands. We long to obey Him. It makes our souls sing. We've just been goaded so long, we've learned to shield ourselves from religion.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“One day, it dawns on me what I've been doing to myself and to everyone around me. I've been trying to meet some lofty expectation, primarily to gain acceptance from people. I don't even know why I'm performing for them. To satisfy a God I'm not sure I can ever please? Even worse, I expect everyone around me to do the same.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Nature provides many examples of this incredible discrepancy between who we appear to be and who we truly are. Consider the caterpillar. If we brought a caterpillar to a biologist and asked him to analyze it and describe its DNA, he would tell us, "I know this looks like a caterpillar to you. But scientifically, according to every test, including DNA, this is fully and completely a butterfly." Wow! God has wired into a creature looking nothing like a butterfly a perfectly complete butterfly identity. And because the caterpillar is a butterfly in essence, it will one day display the behavior and attributes of a butterfly. The caterpillar matures into what is already true about it. In the meantime, berating the caterpillar for not being more like a butterfly is not only futile, it will probably hurt its tiny ears! So it is with us. God has given us the DNA of righteousness. We are saints. Nothing we do will make us more righteous than we already are. Nothing we do will alter this reality. God knows our DNA. He knows that we are "Christ in me." And now He is asking us to join Him in what He knows is true!”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“What if it was less important that anything ever gets fixed than that nothing has to be hidden?"1”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Repentance isn't doing something about my sin. It is admitting I can't do anything about my sin. It is trusting that only God can cleanse me, and only He can convince me I'm truly cleansed.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Others can't relate. They don't know how to love those with pedigreed masks, how to receive love from them, how to trust. The pedigreed are admired and inspire imitation, but also veiled and unknowable. They are majestic, benevolent emperors—wearing no clothes at all.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“They're trusting who God says they are, instead of adding up their behaviors to prove their godliness.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Those in the Room of Grace are continually allowing God to work on removing the pall from their eyes. Light pours in, and they are in the process of being freed to live beyond preoccupation over their next failure. Those in the Room of Good Intentions are rarely willing to confront those five statements. They're too busy covering their tracks and grinding it out against temptation. The great regret is they know they've already given themselves permission to fail.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“I cannot forgive until I admit I've been sinned against.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Unresolved sin causes us to define our most innate needs as weaknesses. If we see needs as weaknesses, we’ll hide our limitations and call it self-reliance. Or we’ll pretend we have no needs and call it independence. Or we’ll believe that no one should have to meet our needs and call it strength. Or we’ll arrogantly believe we’ve outgrown our needs as we’ve gotten more “spiritual.” We believe this is maturity, but “I don’t need you” is the language of the wounded heart.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“It's not the sin I'm obsessed with. It's the promised pleasure of the sin.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“All masks are the product of pretending something in our lives is true, even if experience denies it.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Fixing sin is like trying to fix a crimped Slinky. You may think If you just sit on it long enough it might straighten out. Sitting there, you think you've really got a handle on straightening stuff out. But no matter how long you sit, when you get up, that Slinky springs right back. Compromised coiled metal doesn't "straighten out" by external pressure, and neither does sin.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“It's one thing to have a profound experience, and it's quite another to kill a lie that's served you a long time.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“as long as we're behind a mask, any mask, we will not be able to receive love.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“This life in Christ is not about what I can do to make myself worthy of His acceptance, but about daily trusting what He has done to make me worthy of His acceptance.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“God never tells me to get over something and just get past it. Never. Instead, He asks me to trust Him with every circumstance.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Destiny is set in motion when you choose the path of humility.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“That's destiny. It wasn't something Peter could manipulate, coerce, or talent his way into. It's up to God, and it involves His glory, your fulfillment, and the welfare of others.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Destiny is the ordained intention God has sacredly prepared with your name on it.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“There is no releasing without maturing. There is no maturing without healing. There is no healing without receiving gifts of grace.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“when we love more, we cannot help but sin less.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Real love, however, is always the process of meeting needs.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“As we grow in trust during this suffering, God expands our influence.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

 

[Undead]

Dorothy, let me say this, you are probably a wonderful person that loves Jesus with all your heart. And for that I say you are a beautiful person on the inside. I do not wish to fight with anyone--especially someone who tries very hard to please God. So if I have insulted you I apologize, that was never my intent. We should esteem each other higher than ourselves, and I do esteem you higher than me.
My only contention was with the idea that we can reach a level of sinlessness and apparently that's not even what you were intending to convey.
Have a great day, I hope I have not insulted you. If I have, please forgive me.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

we are arguing semantics.. the OP was can we reach a level of perfection where we do not sin. The simple answer is no. And we are to walk circumspectly, not as fools. We should sometimes take a look in the mirror-- not to stare at our beauty, but rather the opposite--to see the spinach in our teeth.

Prov 27:19
As in water face reflects face,
So a man’s heart reveals the man.

I was making a different point-- where I heard a young pastor (who was nearly 300 pounds) claim that he had reached a place of sinlessness in his life. And all I'm saying to that, is I don't believe it. Those that preach it put burdens on baby-Christians that believe there is now something wrong with them.

We should always strive to please our Father and we should always try to sin as little as possible--but the idea is not to focus on the "not sinning" but Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

Here is a good book I recommend for you:
https://www.amazon.com/Cure-What-Isnt-Think-Neither-ebook/dp/B006G3NFR0


The Cure Quotes

“God has given us the DNA of righteousness. We are saints. Nothing we do will make us more righteous than we already are. Nothing we do will alter this reality. God knows our DNA. He knows that we are "Christ in me." And now He is asking us to join Him in what He knows is true!”
― John S. Lynch, The cure


“What if repentance wasn't a promise from you to God but a gift from God to you?”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Grace is the face love wears, when it meets imperfection.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“No one told me that when I wear a mask, only my mask receives love.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“The quality of your life is based in trusting this: Where you are right now is the perfect place for you, or the God of all goodness and power would not allow you to be there.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“God allows some pain to awaken our hearts.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“This life in Christ is not about what I can do to make myself worthy of His acceptance, but about daily trusting what He has done to make me worthy of His acceptance.7”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“God never tells me to get over something and just get past it. Never. Instead, He asks me to trust Him with every circumstance.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Grace always invites rather than demands reconciliation.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“There are two gods: The one we see through our shame, and the One who actually is.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“What if there was a place so safe that the worst of me could be known, and I would discover that I would not be loved less, but more In the telling of it?”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“The mundane, agonizing details of life build and build like bricks. Soon we are too weary of wrestling with our everyday existence to entertain grand visions of destiny.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Self-protection is one of the great oxymorons. We're the only person in the world we don't have the potential to protect.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Where you are right now is the perfect place for you, or the God of all goodness and power would not allow you to be there.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Blame is often a commentary on the unresolved, hidden sin in the blâmer.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“What if it was less important that anything ever gets fixed than that nothing has to be hidden?”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“sin finds its power when I hide.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“We're hardwired for heartfelt obedience. We have to be religiously badgered into compliance, which leads to eventual disobedience. Only bad theology can do that. Sin and failure is all we think we have until new life is wooed forth. We need others to show us God beautifully, without condemnation, disgust, and unsatisfied demands. We long to obey Him. It makes our souls sing. We've just been goaded so long, we've learned to shield ourselves from religion.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“One day, it dawns on me what I've been doing to myself and to everyone around me. I've been trying to meet some lofty expectation, primarily to gain acceptance from people. I don't even know why I'm performing for them. To satisfy a God I'm not sure I can ever please? Even worse, I expect everyone around me to do the same.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Nature provides many examples of this incredible discrepancy between who we appear to be and who we truly are. Consider the caterpillar. If we brought a caterpillar to a biologist and asked him to analyze it and describe its DNA, he would tell us, "I know this looks like a caterpillar to you. But scientifically, according to every test, including DNA, this is fully and completely a butterfly." Wow! God has wired into a creature looking nothing like a butterfly a perfectly complete butterfly identity. And because the caterpillar is a butterfly in essence, it will one day display the behavior and attributes of a butterfly. The caterpillar matures into what is already true about it. In the meantime, berating the caterpillar for not being more like a butterfly is not only futile, it will probably hurt its tiny ears! So it is with us. God has given us the DNA of righteousness. We are saints. Nothing we do will make us more righteous than we already are. Nothing we do will alter this reality. God knows our DNA. He knows that we are "Christ in me." And now He is asking us to join Him in what He knows is true!”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“What if it was less important that anything ever gets fixed than that nothing has to be hidden?"1”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Repentance isn't doing something about my sin. It is admitting I can't do anything about my sin. It is trusting that only God can cleanse me, and only He can convince me I'm truly cleansed.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Others can't relate. They don't know how to love those with pedigreed masks, how to receive love from them, how to trust. The pedigreed are admired and inspire imitation, but also veiled and unknowable. They are majestic, benevolent emperors—wearing no clothes at all.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“They're trusting who God says they are, instead of adding up their behaviors to prove their godliness.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Those in the Room of Grace are continually allowing God to work on removing the pall from their eyes. Light pours in, and they are in the process of being freed to live beyond preoccupation over their next failure. Those in the Room of Good Intentions are rarely willing to confront those five statements. They're too busy covering their tracks and grinding it out against temptation. The great regret is they know they've already given themselves permission to fail.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“I cannot forgive until I admit I've been sinned against.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Unresolved sin causes us to define our most innate needs as weaknesses. If we see needs as weaknesses, we’ll hide our limitations and call it self-reliance. Or we’ll pretend we have no needs and call it independence. Or we’ll believe that no one should have to meet our needs and call it strength. Or we’ll arrogantly believe we’ve outgrown our needs as we’ve gotten more “spiritual.” We believe this is maturity, but “I don’t need you” is the language of the wounded heart.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“It's not the sin I'm obsessed with. It's the promised pleasure of the sin.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“All masks are the product of pretending something in our lives is true, even if experience denies it.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Fixing sin is like trying to fix a crimped Slinky. You may think If you just sit on it long enough it might straighten out. Sitting there, you think you've really got a handle on straightening stuff out. But no matter how long you sit, when you get up, that Slinky springs right back. Compromised coiled metal doesn't "straighten out" by external pressure, and neither does sin.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“It's one thing to have a profound experience, and it's quite another to kill a lie that's served you a long time.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“as long as we're behind a mask, any mask, we will not be able to receive love.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“This life in Christ is not about what I can do to make myself worthy of His acceptance, but about daily trusting what He has done to make me worthy of His acceptance.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“God never tells me to get over something and just get past it. Never. Instead, He asks me to trust Him with every circumstance.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Destiny is set in motion when you choose the path of humility.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“That's destiny. It wasn't something Peter could manipulate, coerce, or talent his way into. It's up to God, and it involves His glory, your fulfillment, and the welfare of others.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Destiny is the ordained intention God has sacredly prepared with your name on it.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“There is no releasing without maturing. There is no maturing without healing. There is no healing without receiving gifts of grace.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“when we love more, we cannot help but sin less.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“Real love, however, is always the process of meeting needs.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

“As we grow in trust during this suffering, God expands our influence.”
― John S. Lynch, The cure

We are not arging semantics. Your author here does not know if he can ever please God. This is amazing close to what I said in the previous post. It is not only possible, it is possible more than once to please God and it is a very remarkable experience that one can taste by doing what God wants a man or woman to do. One cannot seek the experience as a goal per se, and yet the desire to please is never far from the heart intent on obeying. These are not merely words.

But if a person does not believe it can happen, they will never pursue it. When I have experienced this, the experience came unbidden and unsought. And yet it was most prfound. It is very real. God was pleased with what I had done out of pure obedience to Him that cost me something. If any one desire this, it can be tasted in this life.

This is what a child of God is to seek and not looking into the mirror being proud of one's state of sinlessness. I say again, the more sinless a man is, the less he will think about his own state of perfection as he will love God and others. The man who boasts of being sinless is a proud man. The man who boasts of knowing and understanding God, if telling the truth, is not thinking of his state of perfection but the joy of knowing and understanding God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy, let me say this, you are probably a wonderful person that loves Jesus with all your heart. And for that I say you are a beautiful person on the inside. I do not wish to fight with anyone--especially someone who tries very hard to please God. So if I have insulted you I apologize, that was never my intent. We should esteem each other higher than ourselves, and I do esteem you higher than me.
My only contention was with the idea that we can reach a level of sinlessness and apparently that's not even what you were intending to convey.
Have a great day, I hope I have not insulted you. If I have, please forgive me.

Oh that was very kind of you but you did not insult me at all. Hope I did not insult you. Please forgive me if I did.

Thought we were discussing this. Is that OK? Isn't the point of the discussion to talk about it. When we reach agreement, the discussion is over. I did not think we were fighting.

And yes, I agree but mostly because I think the pursuit of being sinless is born solely out of pride. It is disconnected from love for God or man and filled with love for self. It is the self that wants to be able to say it is sinless. Love for God or man is not thinking much about the self that much. So I agree and strongly suggest the preach was frankly speaking, full of himself. I have met some godly people in my time and none of the really godly ones talked about their own righteousness at all. Was not a topic of interest to them.

 

[Undead]

that's why I said semantics because we might be saying the same thing.. the man that claimed to be sinless, was in his late 20's was very fat and drove a very fast Mustang--and yet called himself a Pastor. This, to me is someone to watch out for.

I agree with you to a point.
It's like the statement "I am humble" is self-defeating. The moment you say it, you become the opposite of what you are saying.

I agree, discussion is good.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Look through Scripture for Yahweh's Description of His Ekklesia, who Yahweh's Word Says walk daily in UNION WITH JESUS, "Echad" as the Father and Jesus are "Echad", so also the Ekklesia (yes, while still alive in this lifetime.).... Also, much more (many instances) in Yahweh's Description of Ekklesia in the Epistles, describing those who live as He Says in His Word and His Spirit, not as men do or say.

In person, you might never see this. That's not really important though.

What Yahweh's Word Says is, as Yahweh grants understanding of Scripture, is what is important.

I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

See somewhere as is written "bring all things, everything, out into the LIGHT ..." and "Be the LIGHT of the world" and "walk in the LIGHT" so all things may be seen as from Yahweh, and not from nor of the flesh nor of the world, but of Yahweh - His Way in Jesus, described thoroughly in Scripture.

How can you stop the sinful thoughts and actions that are done without recognition?

 

[Southernscotty]

Look through Scripture for Yahweh's Description of His Ekklesia, who Yahweh's Word Says walk daily in UNION WITH JESUS, "Echad" as the Father and Jesus are "Echad", so also the Ekklesia (yes, while still alive in this lifetime.).... Also, much more (many instances) in Yahweh's Description of Ekklesia in the Epistles, describing those who live as He Says in His Word and His Spirit, not as men do or say.

In person, you might never see this. That's not really important though.

What Yahweh's Word Says is, as Yahweh grants understanding of Scripture, is what is important.

Understanding the definition of Ekklesia (and its alternate spelling ecclesia) is an important component of understanding the church. Ekklesia is a Greek word defined as “a called-out assembly or congregation.” Ekklesia is commonly translated as “church” in the New Testament. For example, Acts 11:26says that “Barnabas and Saul met with the church [ekklesia]” in Antioch. And in 1 Corinthians 15:9 Paul says that he had persecuted the church [ekklesia] of God.” The “called-out assembly,” then, is a congregation of believers whom God has called out of the world and “into His wonderful light” (1 Peter 2:9). The Greek ekklesia is the basis for our English words ecclesiastical (“pertaining to the church”) and ecclesiology (“the study of doctrine concerning the church”).

The word in the New Testament was also used to refer to any assembly of people. In his address to the Sanhedrin, Stephen calls the people of Israel “the assembly [ekklesia] in the wilderness” (Acts 7:38). And in Acts 19:39, ekklesia refers to a convening of citizens to discuss legal matters. However, in most contexts, the word ekklesia is used to refer to the people who comprise the New Testament church.

It is important that the church today understand the definition of ekklesia. The church needs to see itself as being “called out” by God. If the church wants to make a difference in the world, it must be different from the world. Salt is different from the food it flavors. God has called the church to be separate from sin (1 Peter 1:16), to embrace fellowship with other believers (Acts 2:42), and to be a light to the world (Matthew 5:14). God has graciously called us unto Himself: “‘Come out from them and be separate,’ says the Lord. ‘Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you’” (2 Corinthians 6:17).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

that's why I said semantics because we might be saying the same thing.. the man that claimed to be sinless, was in his late 20's was very fat and drove a very fast Mustang--and yet called himself a Pastor. This, to me is someone to watch out for.

I agree with you to a point.
It's like the statement "I am humble" is self-defeating. The moment you say it, you become the opposite of what you are saying.

I agree, discussion is good.

I agree. Saying "hey I am humble" is self-defeating. Noticing one is proud is not though. Takes humility to admit one is proud and takes pride to insist one is humble.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What might often be called 'church' (around the world, worldly groups) often makes no [ good ] difference in the world, rather hinders little ones from finding Yahweh's Kingdom.

Ekklesia, as written throughout OT and NT, always make a difference, being seen and known as Yahweh's People, called and set apart by Him for Himself, living holy ( set apart ) lives, not religious hypocrites like the Scribes and Pharisees opposed to Jesus.

Ekklesia are always persecuted, just as Jesus says we would/will be.
That does not take away any of the continual joy and peace and righteousness granted without measure freely and continually daily in Jesus to all the born again ones abiding in Him.

 

[Undead]

Psalm 19:12-14

12 Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.
13 Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;
Let them not have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless, And I shall be innocent of great transgression.

14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer

=========
This is a man after God's own heart saying we cannot even know (often times) when we grieve our Lord. But please help us Oh God!

And here is his son (Solomon) in Proverbs 20:9
"Who can say, “I have made my heart clean,
I am pure from my sin”?"

Who can say it? Certainly not the wisest man who ever lived.

When my own flesh and blood children grieve me, their father, often times they are unaware of it! (unless and until I tell them). My son borrowed my tiller, and took it to his house--and I guess he was never going to return it.. like it was his or something... firstly, he didn't ask--just one day came and got it! THEN I had to retrieve it in my own pick-up truck--he also has a pick-up truck (how else did he get it to his house?) but he never knew and still doesn't know how upset this made me. Some may say I should tell him-- but Proverbs 19:11 says "The discretion of a man makes him slow to anger, And his glory is to overlook a transgression." I should add though--if it keeps creeping back in as sin and making me angry-- and I have not truly forgiven him, then I owe it to him to bring it up so we can settle it and I can get over it. But I believe I have... key words "I believe" ...lol

This must mean that I have secret faults that make him upset as well--and perhaps if I brought it up, he might throw a few darts back at me that I had no idea I have done to him.. maybe I still have some of his tupperware right now?
Lord! Cleanse me from secret faults!
That's the best we can do.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Psalm 19:12-14

12 Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.
13 Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;
Let them not have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless, And I shall be innocent of great transgression.

14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer

=========
This is a man after God's own heart saying we cannot even know (often times) when we grieve our Lord. But please help us Oh God!

And here is his son (Solomon) in Proverbs 20:9
"Who can say, “I have made my heart clean,
I am pure from my sin”?"

Who can say it? Certainly not the wisest man who ever lived.

When my own flesh and blood children grieve me, their father, often times they are unaware of it! (unless and until I tell them). My son borrowed my tiller, and took it to his house--and I guess he was never going to return it.. like it was his or something... firstly, he didn't ask--just one day came and got it! THEN I had to retrieve it in my own pick-up truck--he also has a pick-up truck (how else did he get it to his house?) but he never knew and still doesn't know how upset this made me. Some may say I should tell him-- but Proverbs 19:11 says "The discretion of a man makes him slow to anger, And his glory is to overlook a transgression." I should add though--if it keeps creeping back in as sin and making me angry-- and I have not truly forgiven him, then I owe it to him to bring it up so we can settle it and I can get over it. But I believe I have... key words "I believe" ...lol

This must mean that I have secret faults that make him upset as well--and perhaps if I brought it up, he might throw a few darts back at me that I had no idea I have done to him.. maybe I still have some of his tupperware right now?
Lord! Cleanse me from secret faults!
That's the best we can do.

Great Psalm, 19!

 

[Hazelelponi]

The less you sin the closer to God you become and therefore, the more cognizant of your own sin you are..

Therefore, the people with the least amount (in the eyes of man) of sins to their account are the most likely to proclaim they are the worst of sinners.

I think we learned the most about sin and the struggle of living a righteous life in the Bible from the ones who we look at and don't see sin at all, yet they were entirely cognizant of their own sins..

This is why people who proclaim themselves sinless can often be fairly horrid people.

 

[friend of]

It is the self that wants to be able to say it is sinless. Love for God or man is not thinking much about the self that much.

GOD>>>OTHERS>SELF

 

[lsume]

I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

No human can increase his/her stature. I strongly believe that when I have those great days where I may not have sinned, it was not me that gets the credit. All of the credit goes to Jesus The Christ Who Lives within me. When Christ built what I call the hedge that surrounds me and my brain and protects me from myself and the world, the experience of the building was very unpleasant but done in a way that few would ever forget. On more than one occasion, I have fellowshiped with a Brother in Christ who has also gone through this hedge building process. I recall telling him that it was like 50 times a day and he said more like 100 Brother. Anyone who is reading this, if they have gone through this part of Christian growth, can take comfort in that they are not alone.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The less you sin the closer to God you become and therefore, the more cognizant of your own sin you are..

Therefore, the people with the least amount (in the eyes of man) of sins to their account are the most likely to proclaim they are the worst of sinners.

I think we learned the most about sin and the struggle of living a righteous life in the Bible from the ones who we look at and don't see sin at all, yet they were entirely cognizant of their own sins..

This is why people who proclaim themselves sinless can often be fairly horrid people.

John's First Epistle says a lot about walking in the light and cleansing, through faith in the blood of Christ.

 

[lsume]

I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

[17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I have been going through the Judgement now for some time. The many tears and heartfelt repentance Is how it must be. That is the main reason to have extended life in this miserable world. I have tasted Heaven by The Grace of God The Father. Anyone who loves life in this horrible world will lose it. Anyone who hates life in this world for the sake of Christ will have life. What true Christian wouldn’t rather be in Heaven? However, thank God The Father for His Mercy and Grace. I have led a very sinful life from my past but to whom much has been forgiven has much Love. That Perfect Love that can only come from The Triune God. As painful as it is to repent for my many sins, I must thank God The Father for reminding me of my sins and allowing me to repent. I’ve tasted of scourging and chastisement that is very unpleasant. However, all of this is explained in The Word of God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

GOD>>>OTHERS>SELF

Doesn’t seem to be how many live and that is all that counts.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Psalm 19:12-14

12 Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.
13 Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;
Let them not have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless, And I shall be innocent of great transgression.

14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer

=========
This is a man after God's own heart saying we cannot even know (often times) when we grieve our Lord. But please help us Oh God!

Thats not what he is saying. He’s saying the heart is deceitful and deceives the man and asking God to show him his sins and then he will know. We certainly can know our sins and those we sinned against very certainly know. Problem is we don’t want to know, not we can’t.

And here is his son (Solomon) in Proverbs 20:9
"Who can say, “I have made my heart clean,
I am pure from my sin”?"

Who can say it? Certainly not the wisest man who ever lived.

Well not sure about Enoch but otherwise we generally need His help, true.

When my own flesh and blood children grieve me, their father, often times they are unaware of it! (unless and until I tell them). My son borrowed my tiller, and took it to his house--and I guess he was never going to return it.. like it was his or something... firstly, he didn't ask--just one day came and got it! THEN I had to retrieve it in my own pick-up truck--he also has a pick-up truck (how else did he get it to his house?) but he never knew and still doesn't know how upset this made me. Some may say I should tell him--

We can all understand that. Does he also not notice when others take his stuff?

but Proverbs 19:11 says "The discretion of a man makes him slow to anger, And his glory is to overlook a transgression." I should add though--if it keeps creeping back in as sin and making me angry-- and I have not truly forgiven him, then I owe it to him to bring it up so we can settle it and I can get over it. But I believe I have... key words "I believe" ...lol

I think at a quiet and loving moment you need to tell him he not to do that anymore. I had to tell my daughter the same thing. She thought my kitchen offered her free shopping until i noticed my missing kitchen scissors in her kitchen. I asked her to ask me first.

This must mean that I have secret faults that make him upset as well--and perhaps if I brought it up, he might throw a few darts back at me that I had no idea I have done to him.. maybe I still have some of his tupperware right now?

Good thoughts but darts arent necessary.

Lord! Cleanse me from secret faults!
That's the best we can do.

Amen. People can help cleanse us too.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The less you sin the closer to God you become and therefore, the more cognizant of your own sin you are..

True, the bar is raised if you walk with God.

Therefore, the people with the least amount (in the eyes of man) of sins to their account are the most likely to proclaim they are the worst of sinners.

Im suspicious of those who talk a lot about how good or bad they are in any case.

I think we learned the most about sin and the struggle of living a righteous life in the Bible from the ones who we look at and don't see sin at all, yet they were entirely cognizant of their own sins..

This is why people who proclaim themselves sinless can often be fairly horrid people.

I agree. The ones I’ve met were pretty proud of they “sinless” state. Rather odious.