Re-Thinking Hell

[BobRyan]

Satan - the covering cherub... reduced to ashes as well.

Ezek 28: 14
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was haughty because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I threw you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 By the multitude of your wrongdoings,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

The wicked ... consumed/devoured... Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

 

[P1LGR1M]

16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

Sorry, no:


Isaiah 1:16-18
King James Version

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.


As mentioned before, the use of Old Testament Proof texts, especially when they are yanked out of context—doesn't help the universal salvation folk at all.

Here they appeal to God commanding men to basically keep the Law.

Now, how exactly can sins be white as snow and wool?

If you say anything but faith in Jesus Christ then you have proven yourself to be a member of some religion and not a member of the Body of Christ. Remission of sins is only possible through faith in Christ.


19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.


In view is physical death. See Ezekiel 36:22-27 to see the salvation of the Lord. This has an eternal context and that is what is in view: eternal destiny.


Jeremiah 3:12
King James Version

12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.


Did they repent? Will He keep His anger forever on those who do not?


John 8:41-44
King James Version

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Next proof text:


Habakkuk 1:12
King James Version

12 Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.


Again, a temporal context, and the "them" would be the Chaldeans, that God raised up for the purpose of temporal judgment and correction. This does not speak of eternal judgment.


Next proof text:


Philippians 3:17-21
King James Version

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.


Not sure how they go from the end of the enemies of Christ being destruction to they are included in God subduing all things to Himself.

In their doctrine, they make the enemies of Christ candidates for Eternal Life.

Once again a proof text yanked out of its context.

Next proof text:


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Seems the enemies of Christ don't have a lot of hope to be found here either.

Note in verse 28 that in view is a contrast of those who rejected God's will under the Law and those who reject God's will in this current Age.

Again, there will be differing degrees of punishment in Hell, and those who reject Christ, His Covenant, His Sacrifice, and the ministry of the Comforter, the Spirit of Grace—will be held more accountable and receive sorer punishment.

I'm not happy about it, and like God, I would want all to come to repentance, but that is not what Scripture teaches.

Not a single solitary proof text provided so far supports universal salvation. It could be argued that this is just my opinion, but come on people. If those rejecting Christ are going to receive sorer punishment—just how exactly do you work restoration in there?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

end of story if one is going to accept it as it reads.



The "as it reads" part.




Indeed it is going BEYOND what man can do - rather than claiming that God can do even LESS than what man can do.

=============================
Luke 17:29 apollumi

“ but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

Which is why it is so instructive to see in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" that we see in 2 Peter 2

2 Peter 2:6
6 “and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,

The point, Bob, is that the destruction of those in Hell is a continual existence.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

end of story if one is going to accept it as it reads.

At first glance, it seems that the Lord is speaking about destruction that is complete

The "as it reads" part.

and most will understand this in physical terms. The word translated destroy is apollymi, and it needs to be pointed out, first, that (in the above verse) is not the same word translated as "kill," which is apokteinō.

Indeed it is going BEYOND what man can do - rather than claiming that God can do even LESS than what man can do.

=============================
Luke 17:29 apollumi

“ but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

Which is why it is so instructive to see in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" that we see in 2 Peter 2

2 Peter 2:6
6 “and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,

The point, Bob, is that the destruction of those in Hell is a continual existence.


God bless.

Only if existing as a pile of ashes satisfies your criteria for "continued existence"

Apparently God does not equate the idea of continuing as a pile of ashes as "continued existence" in His Ezek 28 statement.


Ezek 28:
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

 

[P1LGR1M]

17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

Psalm 49:15
King James Version

15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Doesn't say ALL in this one.


Ezekiel 16:55-60
King James Version

55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.


And Sodom and her daughters will return to their former state...when?

That's right, never. It is a form of sarcasm.

But read on:


56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,

57 Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about.

58 Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the Lord.

59 For thus saith the Lord God; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.

60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.


Despite the fact that God despises their sin (v.59), He will restore Israel when He brings them into the New Covenant. This is a National context, and not only does it not say ALL will be ransomed/redeemed from the grave (Sheol, not Hell, the Lake of Fire), it doesn't even say there will be redemption for those who are found guilty here.

The establishment of the New Covenant and Israel being brought under it are a future event for Israel. Romans 11:26-27; Hebrews 10:15-18).

Next proof text Romans 6:23 and has been covered, so we go on to...


Ephesians 1:10
King James Version

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:


Not sure how God gathering all who are in Christ into one speaks of universal salvation for the enemies of Christ.

What it does speak of is the Eternal State, the New heavens and Earth, where those in Christ in Heaven will be united with those on earth. Right now there is a division between those who are physically alive and those who are physically dead.

One would have to make unbelievers to be in Christ in order for this to have an application to the lost.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

end of story if one is going to accept it as it reads.



The "as it reads" part.




Indeed it is going BEYOND what man can do - rather than claiming that God can do even LESS than what man can do.

=============================
Luke 17:29 apollumi

“ but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

Which is why it is so instructive to see in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" that we see in 2 Peter 2

2 Peter 2:6
6 “and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,




Only if existing as a pile of ashes satisfies your criteria for "continued existence"

Apparently God does not equate the idea of continuing as a pile of ashes as "continued existence" in His Ezek 28 statement.


Ezek 28:
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

That is the point you are missing: the destruction in Hell will not be a complete destruction. Israel was "lost" and yet walking around in the land.

That is why terms like torment are used. It is a continued existence of separation from God and that in itself is enough to cause torment.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

That is the point you are missing: the destruction in Hell will not be a complete destruction. Israel was "lost" and yet walking around in the land. .

The Matt 10 text does not "fear Him who can make you lost"

It is the "details" in the Bible as seen in this post that I am in favor of -- #284

There was no
"destruction but not death" in Matt 10
"destruction but only incomplete" in Matt 10
"eternal life but not very happy in that life" in Matt 10

Also not in Ezek 28 as noted above.

Sola scriptura testing - means that these inconvenient details cannot just be dismissed out of hand as if that is the highest form of accuracy.

And...?
Not sure why you think that statement is relevant to anything I said.

The Lost Sheep of Israel are already lost. .

That is the point you are missing: the destruction in Hell will not be a complete destruction. Israel was "lost" and yet walking around in the land. .

Nothing in Matt 10 mentions "Lost" as if to say that the comparison Christ makes is between someone killing the body and someone "lost" rather Christ points to the actual fire and brimstone result that "destroys both body and soul in hell"... far beyond just saying "lost".

I thought you saw that point easily.. I doubt it was difficult.

Feel free to respond to the point.

 

[wendykvw]

Pentecostal Theologian Dr. Gregory Boyd on the topic of Purgatory.

 

[P1LGR1M]

18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

It's a false gospel: that all will be saved.


Psalm 49:15
King James Version

15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.


I see the Psalmist has an expectation of redemption, but where is the ALL?


Psalm 86:13
King James Version

13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.


Same thing. A misrepresentation by universal salvation of what Scripture is teaching.


Psalm 103:8-14
King James Version

8 The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.

10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him.

14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.


Again, a temporal context bereft of the revelation of the New Testament. It is applying to everyone something that is specific to the Psalmist.

We also need to pay attention to the reference to the Father. Christ makes it clear that not all men are the children of God, much less the sons of God who have been baptized into Christ.

Skipping on to Scripture that might have relevance to what we know about Eternal Judgment today...


Philippians 3
King James Version

1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.


In view are believers that are in Christ. Not ALL.


Philippians 3:18-21
King James Version

18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.


Verse 21 was the proffered proof text.

Ridiculous. Not sure how anyone can view this as a proof text for universal salvation.


Colossians 1:19-21
King James Version

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled


We finally have an "ALL" in the text, but it applies to those reconciled to Christ. The reference to things in earth and Heaven refer to the just spirits who were liberated from Hades/Sheol and those who are still living on the earth.

And Paul makes it clear how one is reconciled, and by what God will reconcile "all things unto Himself:" through the blood of His Cross.

And we have been given the ministry of reconciliation:


25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:


The riches of the glory of the Mystery of Christ is the very indwelling of Christ Himself.

In other words, those who are in Christ are those who are reconciled. Here is reconciliation of the world:


2 Corinthians 5:17-20
King James Version

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.


We are told God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Does this mean the entire world was reconciled? No. Does this mean the entire world will be reconciled? No.


1 Thessalonians 1:10
King James Version

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


Delivered who from the wrath to come? ALL? no, those who are members of the Church.

Paul will state in his second letter what happens to those who obey not the Gospel:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
King James Version

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


I honestly don't know how anyone can take universal salvation seriously. Above we see that the lost are those who do not know God and reject the Gospel. They will suffer everlasting punishment which is everlasting separation from God.


1 Timothy 1:15
King James Version

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


No universal salvation there. It's a pretty well-known fact Christ came to save sinners, and an equally well-known fact not all will be saved.


1 Timothy 2:1, and 4-6
King James Version

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Yes, God wants all men to be saved, hence the command to pray for all—because they are not all saved.


1 Timothy 4:10
King James Version

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


I can see how this might be construed as God is Savior in the practical sense of all men, but it remains that it doesn't negate Paul's teaching elsewhere. God is the Savior of all men, but that doesn't equate to all men will be saved. He is not the Savior of those that know not God and do not obey the Gospel. He is their Judge.


1 Timothy 6:13
King James Version

13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;


I can only assume that it is the quickening of all things that is in view here. It is true that God gives life to all things. But it is equally true Christ will judge two groups: the quick and the dead.


Acts 10:42-43
King James Version

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.


Remission of sins is for those who believe in Christ.

Not ALL.


2 Peter 3:9
King James Version

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


This answers the question as to why the Lord has not come back yet: because He is not willing that any should perish, but that all men come to repentance.

Doesn't change the fact that not all men will repent. He will return and when He does He will judge the quick and the dead, which shows that not all are quickened and that there are those who remain dead.

If any of the Old Testament verses I did not cover seem relevant to this poster or any other, please mention them.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

The Matt 10 text does not "fear Him who can make you lost"

It is the "details" in the Bible as seen in this post that I am in favor of -- #284

There was no
"destruction but not death" in Matt 10
"destruction but only incomplete" in Matt 10
"eternal life but not very happy in that life" in Matt 10

Also not in Ezek 28 as noted above.

Sola scriptura testing - means that these inconvenient details cannot just be dismissed out of hand as if that is the highest form of accuracy.

I'm not sure if you do it on purpose, but you have a great knack for being wrong on every point.

I guess the people that Christ came to minister to were dead as you say. He was ministering to corpses.

Okay, Bob, whatever you say.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

19. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as Fire, but sometimes as Soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never “Hellfire,” but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

Let's test that theory:


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Christ will baptize with the Holy Ghost (which is gathering His wheat in to His garner) and with fire, which is burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire. It is a purification of sorts, truly, because He will thoroughly purge His floor.

In view is Eternal Life and Eternal Damnation.

It is the same imagery Christ used to teach about eternal damnation here:


Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


I don't see anything about a second chance after death to abide in Christ. Could someone point that out to me?


Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Universal salvation teaches that all men will be in Christ, yet we don't see this in Scripture. The beast and the false prophet are the first men to go into Hell. The Lake of Fire that is burning with brimstone.

Proof text all you want you aren't going to negate the teachings of Hell by cherry-picking proof texts and leaving out all that is relevant to the Doctrine of Hell.


2 Peter 3:7-10
King James Version

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Again, a purging and purification, but the fire here will leave nothing. That is in relation to this physical universe. The fate of those who come under the fire of judgment will not fare so well:


Continued...

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not sure if you do it on purpose, but you have a great knack for being wrong on every point. .

When I mention sola scriptura testing, list bible details that don't fit your suggested solution -- you simply respond with "you are wrong all the time". Imagine a protestant reformation where "you are wrong all the time" was their "sola scriptura" compelling response.

You have free will and can choose as you wish of course. But I suggest your "you are wrong all the time" conclusion aptly sums the way you are treating the details in the texts that I keep pointing out.

My main focus is on the "objective unbiased readers" of these exchanges. I am blessed beyond that if the person I am dialoging with also is interested in the Bible details I keep pointing out - but that does not always happen. What does almost always happen - is that an objective unbiased reader sees what is going in the exchange. You can't simply "tell them what to think"... they look at the details pointed out.

 

[P1LGR1M]

20. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.

Syllogistic reasoning that falls short.

The tares are representative of people, not works:


Matthew 13:36-42
King James Version

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


As I said before, Prophecy can have multiple applications. This has application to both the Return of Christ as well as the Great White Throne Judgment.

When Christ returns those He does not know (who are they that are not in Christ (only those born again will enter into the Kingdom of God, the Millennial Kingdom)) will enter into everlasting destruction:


Matthew 25:41
King James Version

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

When I mention sola scriptura testing, list bible details that don't fit your suggested solution -- you simply respond with "you are wrong all the time". Imagine a protestant reformation where "you are wrong all the time" was their "sola scriptura" compelling response.

You have free will and can choose as you wish of course. But I suggest your "you are wrong all the time" conclusion aptly sums the way you are treating the details in the texts that I keep pointing out.

My main focus is on the "objective unbiased readers" of these exchanges. I am blessed beyond that if the person I am dialoging with also is interested in the Bible details I keep pointing out - but that does not always happen. What does almost always happen - is that an objective unbiased reader sees what is going in the exchange. You can't simply "tell them what to think"... they look at the details pointed out.

You haven't pointed anything out, Bob, you made an erroneous statement and when I am done with this post I will be glad to show you why it was erroneous.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

The Matt 10 text does not "fear Him who can make you lost"

It is the "details" in the Bible as seen in this post that I am in favor of -- #284

There was no
"destruction but not death" in Matt 10
"destruction but only incomplete" in Matt 10
"eternal life but not very happy in that life" in Matt 10

Also not in Ezek 28 as noted above.

Sola scriptura testing - means that these inconvenient details cannot just be dismissed out of hand as if that is the highest form of accuracy.

You haven't pointed anything out, Bob,

Now see - there is a perfect response sequence --

I say that the details in -- #284 make the case in triplicate..

And you say you can't see anything.

I am very happy for the objective unbiased readers to view that and do their own evaluation of the details you claim are not pointed out in #284

Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

end of story if one is going to accept it as it reads.

At first glance, it seems that the Lord is speaking about destruction that is complete

The "as it reads" part.

and most will understand this in physical terms. The word translated destroy is apollymi, and it needs to be pointed out, first, that (in the above verse) is not the same word translated as "kill," which is apokteinō.

Indeed it is going BEYOND what man can do - rather than claiming that God can do even LESS than what man can do.

=============================
Luke 17:29 apollumi

“ but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

Which is why it is so instructive to see in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" that we see in 2 Peter 2

2 Peter 2:6
6 “and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,

The point, Bob, is that the destruction of those in Hell is a continual existence.


God bless.

Only if existing as a pile of ashes satisfies your criteria for "continued existence"

Apparently God does not equate the idea of continuing as a pile of ashes as "continued existence" in His Ezek 28 statement.


Ezek 28:
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

 

[P1LGR1M]

21. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.

Again, a false statement. Gehenna passages always speak of everlasting judgment, and tartarus speaks of demons already judged.

And it is because many go outside of Scripture to prooftext their beliefs that they go astray.

How about recommending a Biblical Dictionary:

Hell - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Hell
[ 1,,G1067, geenna ]
represents the Hebrew Ge-Hinnom (the valley of Tophet) and a corresponding Aramaic word; it is found twelve times in the NT, eleven of which are in the Synoptists, in every instance as uttered by the Lord Himself. He who says to his brother, Thou fool (See under FOOL), will be in danger of the hell of fire," Matthew 5:22; it is better to pluck out (a metaphorical description of irrevocable law) an eye that causes its possessor to stumble, than that his "whole body be cast into hell," Matthew 5:29; similarly with the hand, Matthew 5:30; in Matthew 18:8-Matthew 18:9, the admonitions are repeated, with an additional mention of the foot; here, too, the warning concerns the person himself (for which obviously the "body" stands in chapt. 5); in Matthew 18:8, "the eternal fire" is mentioned as the doom, the character of the region standing for the region itself, the two being combined in the phrase "the hell of fire," Matthew 18:9. To the passage in Matt. 18, that in Mark 9:43-Mark 9:47, is parallel; here to the word "hell" are applied the extended descriptions "the unquenchable fire" and "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched."

That God, "after He hath killed, hath power to cast into hell," is assigned as a reason why He should be feared with the fear that keeps from evil doing, Luke 12:5; the parallel passage to this in Matthew 10:28 declares, not the casting in, but the doom which follows, namely, the destruction (not the loss of being, but of well-being) of "both soul and body."

In Matt. 23 the Lord denounces the scribes and Pharisees, who in proselytizing a person "make him two-fold more a son of hell" than themselves (Matthew 23:15), the phrase here being expressive of moral characteristics, and declares the impossibility of their escaping "the judgment of hell," Matthew 23:33. In James 3:6 "hell" is described as the source of the evil done by misuse of the tongue; here the word stands for the powers of darkness, whose characteristics and destiny are those of "hell."

For terms descriptive of "hell," See e.g., Matthew 13:42; Matthew 25:46; Philippians 3:19; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:39; 2 Peter 2:17; Jude 1:13; Revelation 2:11; Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:6, Revelation 20:10, Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:8.

Notes:

(1) For the rendering "hell" as a translation of hades, corresponding to Sheol, wrongly rendered "the grave" and "hell," See HADES.

(2) The verb tartaroo, translated "cast down to hell" in 2 Peter 2:4, signifies to consign to Tartarus, which is neither Sheol nor hades nor hell, but the place where those angels whose special sin is referred to in that passage are confined "to be reserved unto judgment;" the region is described as "pits of darkness," RV.


This shows that "Hell" is viewed as represented in Christ's teachings concerning Gehenna. This dictionary differentiates between the other words translated as Hell.

But if you want to try to interpret Scripture with an Oxford Dictionary—have at it.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

22. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2. With that out of the way, we can see clear to the salvation of all.

Actually, all you do is present a case for how not to present Doctrine.

You haven't deconstructed anything but the need for the lost to turn to Christ.

Hopefully, for some, seeing your presentation will help them see their need.

23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.

The concept is there, and those who have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit see it.

Removing Eternal Judgment from Scripture doesn't change the fact that those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel will not be children of God. There is more than just verses with the word "Hell" in them that teach eternal judgment. That has been shown in the previous posts addressing the proof texts of universal salvation.

We don't find the word Trinity in Scripture but the concept and Doctrine is there. Of course, if one is relying on secular knowledge and trying to discredit what Scripture teaches by that, it is understandable that confusion will follow.

We have the Good News as a counter to the Bad News, that man is in need of a Savior. How to be in relationship with God is spelled out clearly, as is the result of resisting God.

Not a single proof text offered has a direct statement that all men will be saved. Not one.

And not a single passage teaching that the lost will be cast into the Lake of Fire can be discredited.

And when we see the correlation of Christ's teachings concerning the lost being cast into fire that cannot be quenched it isn't really that difficult to see the connection.

Those that cannot make that connection should give a little more attention to what the Lord teaches, rather than what the Universal Salvation advocates are teaching. There is a reason why doctrines such as universal salvation, annihilation, and soul sleep have been considered doctrines of Cults: because these teachings do not align with the teachings of Scripture.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

end of story if one is going to accept it as it reads.



The "as it reads" part.




Indeed it is going BEYOND what man can do - rather than claiming that God can do even LESS than what man can do.

IT is not logical to say "don't fear they who can kill -- rather fear Him who can do even less"

=============================
Luke 17:29 apollumi

“ but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

Which is why it is so instructive to see in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" that we see in 2 Peter 2

2 Peter 2:6
6 “and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,

And for Sodom Eternal Judgment still awaits:


Matthew 10:15
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


Hence the "destruction" is not complete. Those who died physically still await judgment, and their fate will be better than that of those who reject Christ.


God bless.

 

[ozso]

Paul talks of the kindness and severity of God.

Embracing the God of Israel and Jesus as One seems to be the issue in our attitude to eternal outcomes.

I am not about telling you what to believe.

It does seem though that our concept of God is a mixture of what we read of Him and what we have personally experienced.

We read of Jesus with eyes like flames of fire.

We read of Jesus loving Children on His knee.

There is a temptation to not let God be God.

This is gaining momentum in the modern world.

There also could be a misconceived perception of God that people have had hammered into their heads, that bears closer examination. Although the problem with that is, it's also been hammered into heads that such an examination is forbidden.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Only if existing as a pile of ashes satisfies your criteria for "continued existence"

Apparently God does not equate the idea of continuing as a pile of ashes as "continued existence" in His Ezek 28 statement.


Ezek 28:
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Physically there may be a pile of ashes in Sodom, but that doesn't mean their spirits have been turned to ashes.

I still don't know what it is you are trying to say. Are you an annihilationist?

Ezekiel 28 has a temporal context and we see this in "...on the earth."


God bless.