Re-Thinking Hell

[Carl Emerson]

But wendykvw wasn't taking about her personal wishing, she was talking about what Paul wrote.

Maybe she was wishing she knew what he wrote ?

 

[ozso]

I would like to see 1 vs. 2 or more would be better where someone gets saved after death.

Google is your friend: 86 Bible Verses about Salvation For The Dead. That of course is just the first hit I came upon. I'm sure much deeper digging can be done. Please keep in mind that I didn't compile that list.

 

[ozso]

Maybe she was wishing she knew what he wrote ?

Are you saying she's stupid?

 

[ozso]

The same ol', same ol' repetitious collection of out-of-context proof texts.
That at some time or other there was a word "hel" or some permutation of that is some obscure Scandinavian country is completely irrelevant. "Hell" in German simply means bright. The opposite of "hell" is "dunkel", dark. So what?
I only need one verse, indisputable, spoken by Jesus, to show scripturally there is, in fact, "eternal punishment."
EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.
EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, backed up by 2000 years +/- of Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV and to translate them correctly.

You saying "The same ol', same ol' repetitious" and then re-posting a post you've already posted several times in this thread gave me a laugh.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It's okay if we don't know exactly what happens in the end, since the seasons the Father set in His power is not given to us to know anyway.

Seasons and substance are two different things - no ???

 

[Carl Emerson]

Are you saying she's stupid?

Totally not - but our wishes can be a powerful lense...

 

[ozso]

Totally not - but our wishes can be a powerful lense...

What have you seen in her posts that suggests subjectivity rather than objectivity?

 

[FineLinen]

So the burden would be on you to show how it is that when Scripture teaches Eternal Life through faith in Christ and Eternal Damnation for those Christ does not know and have rejected the Gospel—it is wrong and the arguments you feel to be better are right.

"The Scriptures do not teach "eternal damnation". The koine krisis is not unending torment by our Father. He judges to bring about His cherished plan that ends with change & transformation.

Coming to know God is a road of expanding glory. It is a journey & a destination.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What have you seen in her posts that suggests subjectivity rather than objectivity?

The matter comes back to our concept of the character of God.

Her position rests on seeing God in a specific way.

 

[ozso]

The matter comes back to our concept of the character of God.

Her position rests on seeing God in a specific way.

How does her concept differ from yours, and why is yours correct?

 

[Lazarus Short]

The same ol', same ol' repetitious collection of out-of-context proof texts.
That at some time or other there was a word "hel" or some permutation of that is some obscure Scandinavian country is completely irrelevant. "Hell" in German simply means bright. The opposite of "hell" is "dunkel", dark. So what?
I only need one verse, indisputable, spoken by Jesus, to show scripturally there is, in fact, "eternal punishment."

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, backed up by 2000 years +/- of Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV and to translate them correctly.

I think I see the light: my many quoted verses are ALWAYS "out-of-context," while your ONE verse is "indisputable."

I don't suppose you even looked any of those verses up...or thought about what they meant.

While my theology seems, to you, to hinge on a word in the language of an "obscure Scandinavian country," your theology hinges on one Greek word, aionios. Trouble is, the meaning of your term is disputed, and mine has the support of the 1611 KJV, Beowulf, the OED and Norse mythology. I think I'll go downstairs and check "aionois" in the OED.

EDIT: Nothing in the OED, but it's always a good place to start. The www gave me a link to Biblehub, which defined "aionios" as "agelong, eternal" for Strongs #166. Looks like the dispute will continue.

 

[Carl Emerson]

How does her concept differ from yours, and why is yours correct?

Paul talks of the kindness and severity of God.

Embracing the God of Israel and Jesus as One seems to be the issue in our attitude to eternal outcomes.

I am not about telling you what to believe.

It does seem though that our concept of God is a mixture of what we read of Him and what we have personally experienced.

We read of Jesus with eyes like flames of fire.

We read of Jesus loving Children on His knee.

There is a temptation to not let God be God.

This is gaining momentum in the modern world.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I will preface my responses to make it clear that when I speak of Hell I am speaking of Gehenna which is the term used by Christ when speaking of everlasting damnation. Hades is the place of the dead that men went into (and still go into) at death prior to Christ's Death and Resurrection.

The argument "Hell isn't in the Bible" is a ridiculous one, as is appealing to translations that do not use the word. It is well understood by most what is meant by Hell. That is, the Lake of Fire, the final destination of the unjust.

The King James Version is the onl translation I will be using (and no, I am not KJVonly).

From my POV, adherents of the "hell" theory cling to a bare handful of proof texts that they recycle over and over, while the overall theme of the Scriptures is the complete salvation of all mankind. Further, they take those texts from ONE version they rarely name, as if it is the One And Only Word Of God, but I can easily post a list of dozens of Bible versions which do not mention "hell" at all. I can also provide dozens of texts which indicate UR to be the correct theory. I can play proof-text ping pong all day, OR I can engage in a respectful dialogue and exploration of universalism.

Not really sure why a translation is relevant when it is the original language that needs to be consulted.

And we will see if "the overall theme of Scripture is the complete salvation of all mankind."

To begin, here is a distillation, with Bible references, of my own 2+ years investigating "hell" and related matters:

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is apparently uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. The Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.” You will look in vain for “heaven and hell” or “earth and hell.”

There is no mention of mountains in the Creation account. I guess mountains don't exist, right? See the weakness of that argument?

As far as looking for two exclusive places being together, not sure why you would think that is significant (heaven and hell or earth and hell). We do see that death, hades, and the sea give up their dead for the final judgment of the lost.

And I don't know Who else might have created Hell if it were not God.

Angels are created prior to this universe it seems, and it seems that God has already decided the fate of those among them that are fallen:


Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The demons knew their fate:


Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

The word basanizō presents the picture of torment at best, and torture at worst. When we are told that the reason for this torment is unending fire it becomes pretty clear:


Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented G928 five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Not really any way to change the intent of this context is there? Most here will understand that a sting is like fire, no?

But let's continue:


Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented G928 with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


This is spoken of those who take the mark of the beast.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented G928 day and night for ever and ever.


Again, Hell was created for Satan and his angels, and the lost are said to go to this place as well. Since we see that the torment of Satan will be for ever and for ever, we can see the implications for the lost.

Again, the lost will go into the Hell created by God for the devil and his angels:


Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


If Christ says it is everlasting, it is everlasting. Since this is contrasted with the fate of the Sheep, believers that are known of Christ, and their destiny is clearly meant to be an everlasting state, there is no reason to deny an everlasting quality to the torment that the lost will share with demons.

So I do not see a valid argument here. Arguing from absence is never a good idea.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated seven times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:4,10,12,18,21,25,31.

Hell is not a part of what God creates in Genesis One, so it is irrelevant.

Again, a false argument easily dispatched.

3. The Creation as described in Genesis is properly understood as a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell – with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

A hierarchy? You honestly believe that Satan can vie with God?

Not a single verse you quote supports your argument. There was never a time (even prior to the creation of this universe) when there was ever a chance that Satan would have victory over God in His Redemption plans.

That Satan is allowed to work his mischief is a far cry from him being a true adversary of God.

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life surely also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

Another false argument: you imply the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is evil. Doesn't this conflict with the point you just tried to make? That everything was good?

Evil is a result, not a creation. If I dump a bucket of ice water on you I create the result of a shock to the body. I do not create shock.

Your own proof text states that the trees were...


Genesis 2:9
King James Version

9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


You have effectively canceled out your own argument. Thanks for making this so easy.




Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.

Seriously? The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell?

See the verses above (post #253).

Again, the Lake of Fire is Gehenna Hell, and it is not necessary to have the word Gehenna in a text to know what is being talked about.

Hell will be an everlasting judgment upon those who refuse to obey God's will.

6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

Prophecy can have more than one application. That you do not recognize Satan in these passages is not necessarily something I would fault you for, because I understand not wanting to impose into Scripture something you don't see.


Ezekiel 28:12-15
King James Version

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


I would ask, though, is what man was in the Eden of God, was the anointed Cherub, was upon the Holy Mountain of God, and was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him?

This is not likely describing a man born separated from God. Among men, only Adam could be said to be perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him.

I would also say that for you to say dogmatically that is isn't a reference to Satan is taking a little too much on yourself. We see a double application in Daniel to a literal person (Antiochus Epiphanes) of history as well as to the Antichrist. I myself see no reason why there cannot be a double application here. And I do believe Lucifer is Satan (Isaiah 14).


Continued...

 

[wendykvw]

Paul talks several times about God's Wrath to come upon the disobedient.

Do you agree with this ???

If so how do you view it ?

I would need to see the verse to address the context. But in general God's wrath has a purpose. We see this pattern in scripture. The pattern has been judgment followed by restoration. In Jeremiah chapter 30 for example: vs. 5-7 Jeremiah speaks of judgment, followed by salvation vs.7-11, an incurable wound beyond healing vs 12-15, and then followed by God healing vs. 16-17. Our foundation must rest on God's character and nature. His love is not an emotion, it is His literal essence. If our foundation is in Christ (who is God) who takes away the sins of the world, not based on our works but on His, the outcome is good news for all people. Those who are in Christ, as Paul states are "especially" saved, and those who are not in Christ here and now, will come to know Him.

"For it is for this we labor and strive because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers." 1 Timothy 4:10

The key question for this passage is this: Are the believers included in the same group as the "all men"? In other words, when Paul says "...especially of believers," does he mean that God will save all men including believers, or only believers? To answer this question, we only need to review the other passages where Paul used the same Greek word translated as "especially" (malista - Strong's 3122).

In Galatians 6:10, Paul used almost the exact phrasing when he wrote:


So then, while we have the opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.


In this passage, is Paul teaching that we should do good only to those who believe or that we should do good to all people including those who believe? Of course, Paul is teaching that we should do good to everyone including those who believe. Nobody reading this passage would conclude Paul was teaching we are only to do good to fellow believers. This passage is particularly important because Paul uses almost the exact phrasing as in 1 Tim 4:10.

 

[wendykvw]

It seems the same tactic that the serpent employed in the garden.
Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Quote the word of God and deflect it's meaning and intent.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Wishing it so don't make it so.

. Satan would never proclaim Jesus is Lord. In fact, Satan desires to be worshiped. I worship Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world. Who do you worship, since you assert Christ was defeated by the evil one?

 

[wendykvw]

Maybe she was wishing she knew what he wrote ?

Maybe you missed what Paul taught.

 

[wendykvw]

Are you saying she's stupid?

Most men find women to be irrelevant in this forum. At least that has been my experience.

 

[P1LGR1M]

7. The Law God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple, ordinary death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.

This I agree with: the death penalty in the Old Testament under the Law was in fact physical death, and this is one of the most abused issues I find when it comes to the issue of Eternal Life and Everlasting Judgment.

See most of the Old Testament.



But it is because of context that we see a specific revelation of Eternal Judgment in the New Testament. Primarily because Eternal Judgment is contrasted with Eternal Life. Eternal and everlasting are often interchangeable in the sense of Eternal Life, because it is Eternal because we receive the Life of God Who is Eternal, and everlasting because it has no end.

Thus when we see those contrasts it provides the definition within the context.

For example:

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

There is no getting around that life eternal is contrasted with everlasting punishment. There is no room for restoration from that judgment.


John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


Those who do not believe in Christ will perish. We don't need to look to the original language to find out if the translators did a good job. Eternal Life is contrasted with perishing.


John 6:53-54
King James Version

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Christ teaches two outcomes: Eternal Life, and no life at all.

Again, no room for restoration, men are commanded to believe in Christ. That is how men acquire Eternal Life. All men are conceived and born without life, and Christ was sent for the specific purpose of bestowing Eternal Life to men.

The other option is to perish. When you look at all of these teachings there simply is no place for universal salvation. It simply isn't taught in Scripture.


Continued...